Why Can't DC Get it right?

[Hound55]

Hal Jordan would fit right into a space Arkham Asylum if he was to be captured during the 90s. I mean what Hal did was wrong and evil, are you telling me Joker's reasons for mass murder are justified because he had 1 bad day? Like Hal Jordan did?

The fact that someone acts against the law is not in and of itself "evil". Despite the fact that evil is more likely to be an element found in larger quantities amongst a criminal population than a law abiding one.

Personally, I think you coould argue that Hal was neither mad nor evil and that he felt he could justify any action, regardless how extreme, with the fact that he felt if he could wield the ultimate power of the rings he could alter reality and "fix" everything.

Parallax, to me, was the manifestation of Hal's NEED to make himself the hero and his inability to deal with losing.

It answered the question of what happens when a force of pure will and immeasurable power "fails". A being of pure determination who truly lives with a "Never say die" attitude.

He couldn't accept losing so he had to find another way to salvage the situation... he then found one... and his iron will was then determined to make it happen.

Which is why I can't understand why people would say its not in his character... Its exactly in his character. And not just his... I could see a few others going down a similar route...

But Johns of course couldn't hack that...

 

[Drz]

Who said Joker had one bad day? For all we know he was making that tragic origin up just to **** with Gordon, Batmans and our minds. He even hints at it.

What about Mr. Freeze and other Arkham Asylum inmates?

Which is why I can't understand why people would say its not in his character... Its exactly in his character. And not just his... I could see a few others going down a similar route...

Because we're talking about Hal mass murdering the GLC, while there we're other ways to alter the reality, but hey DC had the idea of having this one-last guardian Kyle Rayner, so they made Hal evil and killed off the GLC. This is really poorly done decisions, but with Kyle Rayner being the one actually positive outcome from it, and hey guess what? That outcome wasn't that smart decision after all, since Hal and GLC we're brought back.

You can show all your hate on Hal Jordan or Geoff Johns, but its he and his creative team on GL titles, that has made GL so popular, that we now receive 3 Monthly titles! 1 for Hal, Sinestro, Carol. 1 for Kyle, Ganthet, Stewart and 1 for Guy Gardner & Kilowog.

 

[Hound55]

Because we're talking about Hal mass murdering the GLC, while there we're other ways to alter the reality, but hey DC had the idea of having this one-last guardian Kyle Rayner, so they made Hal evil and killed off the GLC. This is really poorly done decisions, but with Kyle Rayner being the one actually positive outcome from it, and hey guess what? That outcome wasn't that smart decision after all, since Hal and GLC we're brought back.

You can show all your hate on Hal Jordan or Geoff Johns, but its he and his creative team on GL titles, that has made GL so popular, that we now receive 3 Monthly titles! 1 for Hal, Sinestro, Carol. 1 for Kyle, Ganthet, Stewart and 1 for Guy Gardner & Kilowog.

Which he would have felt he could have changed back after assuming absolute power.

Hal being evil was never going to be a permanent thing... That much was obvious. There were a lot of ways that Hal could have been re-integrated which would have been less reeking of 12-year old fanboyness and would have made a hell of a lot more sense than the emotional spectrum...

CHANGE has made GL popular now... just as it had then. Same goes with Flash.

Variety is the spice of life. Whenever sales dwindle the first thing you see is people shuffling the deck, its not always a good move, and increased sales is not exclusive to good writing. Yes Emerald Twilight split the fan-base and was a controversial move... but that's not an uncommon thing in good writing.

Rebirth was the cheapest kind of retcon that should be beneath a professional writer in any medium.

 

[MadVillainy]

A hero doesnt have to be born of tragedy. Its a huge cliche. However from the little i know about him i concur that he's boring.

I'm not saying a hero has to have a tragedy, Wonder Woman didn't have one and Superman didnt necessarily have a tragedy (Krypton died but that didnt cause him to become a hero also is it canon that Jon died?), hell a bunch of heroes not even counting superheroes didnt have a tragedy, but its boring to me that his or her life is near perfect, his or her personality is flawless and then they just get superpowers which makes things even more perfect, and then they can effortlessly be perfect with their powers

You mean Scott said that and yes, its not just ridiculous, its rage inducing to the point of Atrocitus inviting you to his corps.

No Jay said "Barry Allen made me the FLash" Alan Scott wouldnt say Barry made me the Flash because...he's GL not Flash

 

[Drz]

Which he would have felt he could have changed back after assuming absolute power.

Oh sure it's easy to say this now, but we know DC was looking for something drasticly new. We knew Hal was going to end up gone with Kyle Rayner coming. Using these "what if!!!" arguments is pointless, since we know DC was all about making Kyle Rayner the last guardian, which like i said already, was a mediocore move.

 

[Hound55]

Oh sure it's easy to say this now, but we know DC was looking for something drasticly new. We knew Hal was going to end up gone with Kyle Rayner coming. Using these "what if!!!" arguments is pointless, since we know DC was all about making Kyle Rayner the last guardian, which like i said already, was a mediocore move.

Its not a bloody "What if?" it was his sole motivation!!!

Yes, it was about blowing up Rayner a bit and taking GL comics in a new direction, which personally I think was a good idea. It was getting stale.

They wanted a new Lantern who had a bit more (read: some) personality.

Hal was never going to be permanently gone, I think we all knew that the original characters were too big to disappear completely. I don't believe it was a mediocre move and I certainly don't think it was handled in a mediocre way.

I rate Emerald Twilight a hell of a lot higher than I do Rebirth. For the reasons I've already addressed.

 

[Mr. Earle]

No Jay said "Barry Allen made me the FLash" Alan Scott wouldnt say Barry made me the Flash because...he's GL not Flash

My bad, i thought it was about Scott and Hal.

 

[Drz]

Its not a bloody "What if?" it was his sole motivation!!!

To bring back Coast City by murdering the corp to get his power, but we both know the writers weren't going to have GLC come back and Hal turn into a good GL again, no they had their plans for Rayner.

 

[Mr. Earle]

 

[Ace of Knaves]

And you are only ******** about that because you like Hal Jordan... not because it was poor story telling.

Which i imagine is exactly the same line of thought that Johns had.

He loves Hal Jordan so he retconned a story not because it was a poor story or didn't make sense... but simply because he loves Hal Jordan and was ******** that the story had Hal doing something bad, that the story muddied his name.

Henceforth... Hal Jordan is a Mary Sue.

 

[Hound55]

To bring back Coast City by murdering the corp to get his power, but we both know the writers weren't going to have GLC come back and Hal turn into a good GL again, no they had their plans for Rayner.

And..?

 

[Hound55]

He loves Hal Jordan so he retconned a story not because it was a poor story or didn't make sense... but simply because he loves Hal Jordan and was ******** that the story had Hal doing something bad, that the story muddied his name.

Henceforth... Hal Jordan is a Mary Sue.

Not even that...

That he PERCEIVED the story muddying his name...

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Well yea that's what i meant.

 

[Hound55]

I might just drop something else before I go to bed...

I'm not a Kyle fanboy... I'm not even really that big a GL fan in general to be honest, I'm more interested in street level stuff, largely.

But I get pissed off when I see bad, cheap writing, like Rebirth.

I'm not beyond getting disappointed when characters kick the bucket needlessly, but legacy characters happen... particularly if you follow the GL Corps.

I was one who was disappointed when Deathstroke made an example of Ryan Choi...
Because there was still promise in the character and it was so early.

I can take characters being done away with if its well written and has some interesting concepts to it though...

Watching what happens when the epitome of will, power and determination fails and how he handles the situation. - Good concept.

Nah-uhhhhh. It wasn't Hal. It was a... a... a... giant... yellow... fear cockroach! Yeah. Anyone could have been susceptible to the new big bad evil fear yellow roach! So Nyah! - Bad concept.

 

[Drz]

And you are only ******** about that because you like Hal Jordan... not because it was poor story telling.

See it's both sad anf funny, when people bash Hal, people say they're Kyle Rayner fans, but when people defend Hal, they're called as Hal Jordan fans. My problem with the story is the destruction of the GLC mythos just so they can have 1 sole Guardian. It's a terrible price to pray for a new character, when they could have had Kyle and the GL Corps easily if they really needed a new legacy character.

But hey it's not like you listen, just bashing on Hal and caling the defenders Hal Lovers.

 

[Hound55]

When the reality is they aren't Kyle Rayner fans... they're just fans of good storytelling.

It wasn't just "so they can have one sole guardian", there was actually some pretty good stuff behind and involved with the story itself... but I guess we can overlook that if it hurts Hal Jordan...

 

[Drz]

Dont forget it also hurts the whole GLC. I mean people do care about Kilowog and other supporting characters, ye know? Its never about solely Hal Jordan.

This is like if... Batman was dead, and not only Tim Drake would become Batman, but you'd also erase Alfred, Joker, Gordon, Catwoman and so forth, you know?

 

[The Batman]

1. So your saying if Barry or Hal's book ever dip in sales they should bring back iconic characters like say Jay Garrick and Alan Scott to headline?
2. I dont see how bringing back old characters is helping the film. Besides Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne the GA barely knows that there are multiple Green Lanterns and Flashes. D you hear GA film goers going "Hey Barry and Hal are back that means we can get a proper Flash and GL film. Isn't it swell!" In fact most my friends (who are GA) have complained that the GL in the film isnt John Stewart...but thats just because they watched JL

1. No, because Jay and Alan would sell less than Wally and Kyle on their worst day. Lucky for them they have the security of the JSA book...on their own, they'd be screwed. DC's better off keeping Barry and Hal around....like it or not, they're the most iconic versions of Flash and GL, though I'm sure someone's bound to disagree. Oh well.

2. Never said anything about the Gen Audience, I'm talking about WB. To WB, Hal Jordan would no doubt be easier to sell. His origin is simple, his character is archetypical, he has a good supporting cast, and he has a good rogues gallery. Conceptually, Hal and Barry have more cinematic potential.

 

[The Batman]

I didnt hide the truth intentionally. It was a stupid concept to begin with and even stupider that Barry was instantly a huge player in both FC and BN. You'd think that he'd need some time getting used to things, but he was all "hey Wally, follow me and let me show you how its done because Johns love me better!"
With Kyle it was only a matter of days and he didnt murder the whole universe, whereas it was a HUGE event in Hal's life. Of course if Kyle can get rid of the parasite in a matter of days, Hal is teh bestest so he can do it in minutes in BN. Take that Kyle!

/sarcasm for Johns
Of course, losing your mind and becoming a deranged murderous psychopath is out of character. If people kept their character traits after going psycho, they wouldnt have gone mad to begin with.
The fact of the matter is that GL sells so well because of Blackest Night and the introduction of the Power Rang... em... Emotional Spectrum. I doubt it had anything to do with Hal.

Uh...of course Barry was gonna be a huge player in Final Crisis....part of the story was about his return from the dead. Thats like whining that Steve Rogers played a major role in "Captain America: Reborn"...because DC was gonna say "lets revive Barry Allen, then put him on the sidelines so wally fans dont get pissed"

Not to mention Barry spent six issues of Rebirth "getting used to things"...or did you happen to forget that comic existed? I know "unintentionally" hiding the truth is par for the course in your posts, but...come on. Did you not read rebirth?

And Do i have to mention that BN revolved around resurrected DC heroes....you know...like Barry Allen? In fact, that complaint is just silly. Barry had a good reason for being a big part of the last two crossovers.

The fact is that the only people who actually thought Hal going crazy was a good idea are people who didnt like or care for him in the first place...the same people who are whining because their favorite characters are no longer getting the focus they used to...

Another fact is that GL has been selling well...since...well, Hal Jordan came back. Thats been 5 years. Not last year with Blackest Night, not even with the Sinestro Corps war. Hal Jordan has been selling quite well, no "power ranger" rings needed.

 

[The Joker]

I love watching you work, Bats.

You...complete...me!

 

[The Batman]

I love watching you work, Bats.

You...complete...me!

Thanks...

This dosent mean I'm letting you out of your cell, though. t:

 

[Mr. Earle]

I know "unintentionally" hiding the truth is par for the course in your posts,

GTFO.

but...come on. Did you not read rebirth?

Guilty. I didnt.

The fact is that the only people who actually thought Hal going crazy was a good idea are people who didnt like or care for him in the first place...the same people who are whining because their favorite characters are no longer getting the focus they used to...

The problem is that they killed these characters and the fans had to adjust to the new guy. Then, after about 20 years in Barry's case, he's back, pushing Wally to the sidelines.

I wonder how would Tim fans feel if Dick Grayson came back, became Robin and Tim was banished to Texas. Its one thing to bring the next guy in the lineage, and another to screw the new guy because of nostalgia or whatever.

 

[Drz]

Uh...of course Barry was gonna be a huge player in Final Crisis....part of the story was about his return from the dead. Thats like whining that Steve Rogers played a major role in "Captain America: Reborn"...because DC was gonna say "lets revive Barry Allen, then put him on the sidelines so wally fans dont get pissed"

Not to mention Barry spent six issues of Rebirth "getting used to things"...or did you happen to forget that comic existed? I know "unintentionally" hiding the truth is par for the course in your posts, but...come on. Did you not read rebirth?

And Do i have to mention that BN revolved around resurrected DC heroes....you know...like Barry Allen? In fact, that complaint is just silly. Barry had a good reason for being a big part of the last two crossovers.

The fact is that the only people who actually thought Hal going crazy was a good idea are people who didnt like or care for him in the first place...the same people who are whining because their favorite characters are no longer getting the focus they used to...

Another fact is that GL has been selling well...since...well, Hal Jordan came back. Thats been 5 years. Not last year with Blackest Night, not even with the Sinestro Corps war. Hal Jordan has been selling quite well, no "power ranger" rings needed.

 

[The Batman]

GTFO.
Guilty. I didnt.
The problem is that they killed these characters and the fans had to adjust to the new guy. Then, after about 20 years in Barry's case, he's back, pushing Wally to the sidelines.

I wonder how would Tim fans feel if Dick Grayson came back, became Robin and Tim was banished to Texas. Its one thing to bring the next guy in the lineage, and another to screw the new guy because of nostalgia or whatever.

Tough. As this thread shows, there's an insensitivity (for lack of a better word) to the fans who actually enjoyed seeing these characters month after month. Barry might've had a good sendoff, but he still had fans who wouldnt see him regularly in comic for 23 years. What was done to Hal was a slap in the face, period.

Kyle and Wally need to stop agrandizing. Kyle and Wally are still alive...and are still called "Green Lantern" and "The Flash". Kyle is a character in a popular title, and there are still plans for Wally in the future. People are just mad that they're not the company pet projects anymore.

 

[Drz]

Yeah people forget that Johns tried his best with Wally, and so did alot of writers. Wally just right now needs his place, which will happen in due time. I mean i can understand the Wally whine, when 10 more months have passed, since Barry's own title has so far just been what? 2 issues? We might even get a "Flash Corp" title sooner or later, and we have Geoff Johns creative team to thank for it.