Why Can't DC Get it right?

[The Batman]

Yeah people forget that Johns tried his best with Wally, and so did alot of writers. Wally just right now needs his place, which will happen in due time. I mean i can understand the Wally whine, when 10 more months have passed, since Barry's own title has so far just been what? 2 issues? We might even get a "Flash Corp" title sooner or later, and we have Geoff Johns creative team to thank for it.

Exactly. Not to mention bringing back Barry was a last resort. Not to mention they tried to replace Wally with Bart....and yet, when Wally did to Bart what Barry's doing now...no one complained.

 

[Hound55]

Not to mention Barry spent six issues of Rebirth "getting used to things"...or did you happen to forget that comic existed? I know "unintentionally" hiding the truth is par for the course in your posts, but...come on. Did you not read rebirth?

Sadly, my life hasn't been written by Geoff Johns so I can't immaturely retcon Rebirth out of existence purely because I didn't like it...

The fact is that the only people who actually thought Hal going crazy was a good idea are people who didnt like or care for him in the first place...the same people who are whining because their favorite characters are no longer getting the focus they used to...

In what way is this "the fact" when two of the people who have been ofering the most argument have already come out and said that Rayner isn't one of their favourite characters..?

I feel fairly confident in saying that Ace's favourite GL would be Guy... you know... one of those GL's who got his s*** wrecked through the whole Emerald Twilight story arc and I've already mentioned Kyle's not my favourite either.

I'm whining because of Johns' hamfisted handling of the whole thing, which reeks of pre-pubescent fan-boy.

If they had to write Hal out because DC wanted to go in a new direction they wrote a very good arc for him to go out in... Geoff Johns' approach to bringing him back..? Not so good.

 

[Evil Twin]

The problem with Wally, in current comics, is that he's basically reached the end of his character arc. He's gone from immature, young man struggling with his uncle's legacy to mature, confident father. Other than the mouth, it's really not the same Wally West of years ago.

And the lack of focus on a civilian life over the years has shown it's limitations. He doesn't have an interesting job. His supporting characters are family and other superheroes. He apparently doesn't have to struggle to make ends meet. Heck, does he have any hobbies or interests? How is he really relatable at this point? Other than the mouth and a bit of impatience, what's Wally's character these days? He's a guy with nothing to prove and no larger mission. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if he pulled a Jack Knight and retired to raise his kids. And Jack Knight went through a similar arc.

Say what you will about Barry, but his role as a scientist has always played a part in who he is. Many of Barry's stories are a triumph of logic and clever thinking over villainy. That's an expression of who he is. And there's always a conflict between logic and the conveniences of the day. And, even then, anyone know what Barry would select if a story forced him to choose between scientist and cop? Flash has always had something of a meta concept with it, with Barry being a comic book fan. And The Rogues still have more of a personal relationship with Barry than they did with Wally.

Those are part of the reasons that Barry is back. They wrote themselves into a dead end with Wally, and nobody really wanted Bart as The Flash. So, unless you hit an OMD style reset button, I don't think DC had a better choice.

As far as movies go, I think the interest in Barry is simply that Wally requires quite a bit of backstory to make him work. You have to understand what Barry means to Wally, the world of the Flash, introduce characters, find a role for Wally in the world, etc. Say what you will about Barry, but starting from scratch with him is pretty darn easy from a plot and structure perspective.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

I remember reading way back that Wally would be given his own identity and a new costume after Barry returned, like how Kyle became Ion again. So when the old men come back, it's not like the kids have to put away their toys. If anything, Kyle got the better end of the deal with Hal's return, because he became the ultimate Green Lantern once more, then a Lantern Honor Guard, which is a higher rank in the Corps than Hal has ever had.

He's still a major player in the mythos, just as Wally will undoubtedly be to the Flash stories. It's not like they're going to kill them to make room for someone new.

 

[Evil Twin]

If they had to write Hal out because DC wanted to go in a new direction they wrote a very good arc for him to go out in... Geoff Johns' approach to bringing him back..? Not so good.

Yes, because turning heroes that many people had been fans of for a long time into mass murdering psychopaths is sure to be logical and pleasing. Fans accepted Barry Allen going out like a hero. They didn't accept Hal being turned into a pscho after over 30 years within the span of a page.

I like Kyle, but Emerald Twilight was editorially mandated garbage from beginning to end and required everyone to behave like an immature imbecile. Nobody bought it as a logical outgrowth of character at the time. People called it a stunt even worse than Doomsday or Knightfall.

 

[MadVillainy]

1. No, because Jay and Alan would sell less than Wally and Kyle on their worst day. Lucky for them they have the security of the JSA book...on their own, they'd be screwed. DC's better off keeping Barry and Hal around....like it or not, they're the most iconic versions of Flash and GL, though I'm sure someone's bound to disagree. Oh well.
I'll agree Hal is definetly the most iconic GL. WIth the Flash I'm not sure because they both wear very similar costumes and to alot of non comic readers they probably can't tell the difference between Wally, Barry, or even Bart in their respective Flash costumes.

2. Never said anything about the Gen Audience, I'm talking about WB. To WB, Hal Jordan would no doubt be easier to sell. His origin is simple, his character is archetypical, he has a good supporting cast, and he has a good rogues gallery. Conceptually, Hal and Barry have more cinematic potential.

Kyle's origin is simple, Wally's origin is simple, they both have good villains, they both are more relatable (which I see is a complaint about DC characters)...I don't see how they have more cinematic potential.

But anyway how did a thread about DC's lack of movie strategy turn into a Kyle/Wally vs Hal/Barry thread

 

[Evil Twin]

Kyle's origin is simple, Wally's origin is simple, they both have good villains, they both are more relatable (which I see is a complaint about DC characters)...I don't see how they have more cinematic potential.

I agree about Kyle's origin being fairly simple. What's so simple about Wally's? Yeah, getting his powers in an amazing coincidence, is fairly simple, but Barry, his relationship with Wally and how Wally views him, the Kid Flash career, and Barry's heroic sacrifice and big boots for Wally to fill are important parts too. The sidekick taking the place of the hero is an interesting story, but I don't think it's necessarily easy to integrate with a main plot.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Kyle's origin is simple, Wally's origin is simple,

Kyle's origin involves a Green Lantern causing a Lantern genocide. Why make the first GL movie in which the Corps, a vital part to the mythos, is destroyed in the very beginning? S:TAS tried to use him with Hal's origin and it didn't feel right.

Wally only becomes the Flash because his uncle died and he wanted to continue the great legacy he left behind. Sure, you could just change his origin with Barry's, since they both obtained their powers the same way, but then it wouldn't be Wally's true origin.

 

[MadVillainy]

It seems very easy to me or at least no more complicated than other origins. He was sidekick, his partner died, he became hero. Easy 1,2,3. Same with he was a scientist, he got his powers, he became a hero. Or he came from another planet, figured out he had powers, became a hero

But seriously can we stop the back and forth about Barry/Hal and Wally/Kyle

 

[Mr. Earle]

I remember reading way back that Wally would be given his own identity and a new costume after Barry returned, like how Kyle became Ion again. So when the old men come back, it's not like the kids have to put away their toys. If anything, Kyle got the better end of the deal with Hal's return, because he became the ultimate Green Lantern once more, then a Lantern Honor Guard, which is a higher rank in the Corps than Hal has ever had.

He's still a major player in the mythos, just as Wally will undoubtedly be to the Flash stories. It's not like they're going to kill them to make room for someone new.

Kyle might as well have been the goddamn Batman, because he is somewhere doing something while Hal has taken his place. Who cares if he THE Green Lantern if all we read is "HAL IS AWESOME, HAL IS AWESOME, HAL IS AWESOME, HAL IS AWESOME"?

It seems very easy to me or at least no more complicated than other origins. He was sidekick, his partner died, he became hero. Easy 1,2,3. Same with he was a scientist, he got his powers, he became a hero. Or he came from another planet, figured out he had powers, became a hero

But seriously can we stop the back and forth about Barry/Hal and Wally/Kyle

Being a superhero from childhood, and being Barry's sidekick is a huge part of Wally's character but i assume that they could do it like the Banderas Zorro movies. Old Flash trains the new one and so on.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Kyle might as well have been the goddamn Batman, because he is somewhere doing something while Hal has taken his place. Who cares if he THE Green Lantern if all we read is "HAL IS AWESOME, HAL IS AWESOME, HAL IS AWESOME, HAL IS AWESOME"?

Johns doesn't write the Corps series, which is where Kyle is, who is a main player in those stories. They're the alternative to those who dislike Hal Jordan.

 

[Red Mask]

In that case, the Sandra Bullock Wonder Woman script would have worked too. Wasn't it about her playing Donna Troy, who inherits the WW mantle? Fresh start, less baggage.

 

[MadVillainy]

Being a superhero from childhood, and being Barry's sidekick is a huge part of Wally's character but i assume that they could do it like the Banderas Zorro movies. Old Flash trains the new one and so on.

Thats what I meant about "He was a sidekick"

In that case, the Sandra Bullock Wonder Woman script would have worked too. Wasn't it about her playing Donna Troy, who inherits the WW mantle? Fresh start, less baggage.

Nah Donna has nothing interesting going for her

 

[Hound55]

Yes, because turning heroes that many people had been fans of for a long time into mass murdering psychopaths is sure to be logical and pleasing. Fans accepted Barry Allen going out like a hero. They didn't accept Hal being turned into a pscho after over 30 years within the span of a page.

I like Kyle, but Emerald Twilight was editorially mandated garbage from beginning to end and required everyone to behave like an immature imbecile. Nobody bought it as a logical outgrowth of character at the time. People called it a stunt even worse than Doomsday or Knightfall.

I've already explained how it is logical...

If they wanted to put Hal on hiatus for a while and change things up with a new character I think that they didn't waste the opportunity and came up with a damn good arc.

It may not be pleasing but it was pretty obvious that it wouldn't be a permanent move, I thought it was a quality arc which didn't waste the opportunity.

 

[Evil Twin]

I've already explained how it is logical...

If they wanted to put Hal on hiatus for a while and change things up with a new character I think that they didn't waste the opportunity and came up with a damn good arc.

It may not be pleasing but it was pretty obvious that it wouldn't be a permanent move, I thought it was a quality arc which didn't waste the opportunity.

And I thought it was a poorly written arc that was completely unsatisfying. There's nothing "logical" about a character with a rock solid sense of morality turning into a maiming, killing, psychopath within a couple of pages, even if he did intend to push the reset button. No build up. No insight. No satisfaction.

It was an editorially mandated turn that came out of nowhere and didn't fit in with anything that had come before. Like if someone comes in and turns WW into a butch lesbian out of nowhere. People may like or hate the new direction, but it wouldn't necessarily be a logical outgrowth of the character.

 

[Hound55]

Actually, I'd say it is logical. It keeps in line with Hal's deep need to be a hero, his iron will and belief that he can fix the situation and asks the moral question that if he truly has the ability to save Coast City and all of its citizens... wouldn't the only truly wrong thing be to do nothing?

It's the same question a lot of superheroes ask from time to time... only difference between Hal (the personification of pure will) and say Spider-Man (the everyman). Is that by pure definition of role its not possible for Hal to be "broken" before he poses that question.

Any "build up" could only ever be brief if you could say it existed at all... because its not a discovery of self that is taking place, but rather a swinging of motivations backed completely by the full determined will of Hal Jordan.

And there was insight... His ring briefly brought back Coast City before it ran out of power... It wasn't too hard to follow his thoughts... The Guardians could follow them too, its why they immediately tried to pull him into line before he could really think about what he'd really be able to do. But they were too late, his mind was already there.

And as for "No satisfaction"... That is entirely perspective. Me, I got a great deal of satisfaction from it. Personally, I think it was possibly the best concept plot-wise I've seen from a GL book... I'd stop short of calling it the best written because I don't think it was told that great, but the concept itself was brilliant.

 

[dnno1]

Yes, because turning heroes that many people had been fans of for a long time into mass murdering psychopaths is sure to be logical and pleasing. Fans accepted Barry Allen going out like a hero. They didn't accept Hal being turned into a pscho after over 30 years within the span of a page.

I like Kyle, but Emerald Twilight was editorially mandated garbage from beginning to end and required everyone to behave like an immature imbecile. Nobody bought it as a logical outgrowth of character at the time. People called it a stunt even worse than Doomsday or Knightfall.

Some fans. The reason why they did that was becase the sales of his comic were faltering. If they were trully fans, then his title wouldn't have been merged into a back story in the Flash comic title during the 1970's, nor would they have let him give up being Green Lantern and travel around the country duing the 1980's (to be replaced by Guy Gardner and John Stewart) or have to kill him off in the 1990's (to be replaced by Kyle Rayner). This is what happens to a character when people don't show their love and put their money where their mouth should be.

 

[Evil Twin]

I've gotten away from the movies, and I apologize for that.

Let me add, that with Kyle I think his origin is relatively simple. He has no connection to the previous GL. He's just a guy who's given a ring one day and then proceeds to discover what happened to the Green Lantern Corps. That's pretty straightforward.

Wally's connection to Barry and how he and the world view the fallen martyr requires some explanation. There are several ways to handle that, montage, flash back, voice over narration, but a straight up, faithful, linear origin is probably not going to work. Heck, a teen in the origin and a young adult for the majority of the movie might create a disconnect. Not that a story needs to conform to a cookie cutter formula, but it certainly requires more finesse to pull off.

 

[Evil Twin]

Some fans. The reason why they did that was becase the sales of his comic were faltering. If they were trully fans, then his title wouldn't have been merged into a back story in the Flash comic title during the 1970's, nor would they have let him give up being Green Lantern and travel around the country duing the 1980's (to be replaced by Guy Gardner and John Stewart) or have to kill him off in the 1990's (to be replaced by Kyle Rayner). This is what happens to a character when people don't show their love and put their money where their mouth should be.

Also in the early 90s, there were 3 GL titles between GL, Guy Gardner, and Mosaic. Mosaic had been cancelled already, but the shift in direction certainly hurt the Guy Gardner title. And, Kyle's run was never a sales juggernaut. As a new direction, it wasn't a clear cut win when looking at the GL universe as a whole that used to support multiple books.

I like Kyle, but he was put in a tough spot. The Hal Jordan fans had been left with a bad taste in their mouths. (As had the Kilowog fans, etc.) It didn't help that Kyle's series had its ups and downs too, woman in refrigerator being the biggest down point. They had done more than remove Hal Jordan from GL and that had changed the concept to a degree, from Lensmen to something more like the Lone Ranger, the last survivor. Interesting in its own right, but a ways away from the original concept.

 

[dnno1]

Also in the early 90s, there were 3 GL titles between GL, Guy Gardner, and Mosaic. Mosaic had been cancelled already, but the shift in direction certainly hurt the Guy Gardner title. And, Kyle's run was never a sales juggernaut. As a new direction, it wasn't a clear cut win when looking at the GL universe as a whole that used to support multiple books.

I like Kyle, but he was put in a tough spot. The Hal Jordan fans had been left with a bad taste in their mouths. (As had the Kilowog fans, etc.) It didn't help that Kyle's series had its ups and downs too, woman in refrigerator being the biggest down point. They had done more than remove Hal Jordan from GL and that had changed the concept to a degree, from Lensmen to something more like the Lone Ranger, the last survivor. Interesting in its own right, but a ways away from the original concept.

If Gardner were trully that popular, he would have continued on in the Green Lantern title. Just face it the sales of the comic were horrible back then and they had to do someting to make a change. Having a hero become a villian is not something new, but in fact a part of great storytelling that goes back to epics like Gilgamesh, Hercules, Beowulf, and even to modern day classics, like Star Wars (and Darth Vader). Calling what they did to Hal Jordan unacceptable and rediculous is childish and we need to get over that.

 

[Evil Twin]

If Gardner were trully that popular, he would have continued on in the Green Lantern title. Just face it the sales of the comic were horrible back then and they had to do someting to make a change. Having a hero become a villian is not something new, but in fact a part of great storytelling that goes back to epics like Gilgamesh, Hercules, Beowulf, and even to modern day classics, like Star Wars (and Darth Vader). Calling what they did to Hal Jordan unacceptable and rediculous is childish and we need to get over that.

As far as I can tell, sales weren't a problem with any of the titles. According to Cully Hamner, Mosaic wasn't cancelled because of sales, but because it didn't fit into the overall "editorial direction". And, by all indications, Mosaic was the least selling of the 3 monthly GL titles at the time with the last issue selling 70,000 copies. (4 if you count the Quarterly started in 1992.) Really, Emerald Dawn in 1991 had given GL a pretty solid boost.

GL had only had one period, between the cancellation of GL/GA in 1972 and the revival in 1976, when he wasn't a regular presence on the newstand. And, heck, it was the pivot title around the Millenium event. While GL may not have been the hottest title on the market in 1994, it was in no danger of cancellation either.

If anything, DC made the move not because of sales, but because of what they perceived as potential sales as they chased the Image market. Younger, hipper, edgier was the call of the day. Potential sales that were never really realized once Emerald Twilight was over and they ended up with one solid but not spectacular seller, replacing three solid sellers, in short order. It's no coincidence that not only is Hal Jordan back, the Corp and supporting characters are back too.

Getting back around to a more general point, in many respects Wally West and Kyle Rayner have benefitted and been hurt by modern storytelling. They've had an internal character arc that has been completed. Wally West has gone from immature hero with some self doubts about fulfilling his uncle's legacy, to mature, confident adult who's found the love of his life. He's had a nice 20 year plus run completing that journey, but where do you go from there? Kyle was thrust in way over his head, and grew to earning the title of Green Lantern. They're terrific characters, but perhaps not great archetypes. Neither is fighting a neverending battle for truth and justice or warring against crime and chaos. By actually telling their stories to their logical outcome, the question of what next has arisen. It's why having Peter Parker win the lottery and come to terms with the idea that he doesn't have to accept so much responsibility would be pretty much a dead end for the character. Or Bruce Banner putting his internal demons to rest permanently. Or Oliver Queen getting over his sense of adventure and becoming a responsible, sensible adult with more moderate ideals.

 

[The Batman]

They're terrific characters, but perhaps not great archetypes. Neither is fighting a neverending battle for truth and justice or warring against crime and chaos. By actually telling their stories to their logical outcome, the question of what next has arisen. It's why having Peter Parker win the lottery and come to terms with the idea that he doesn't have to accept so much responsibility would be pretty much a dead end for the character. Or Bruce Banner putting his internal demons to rest permanently. Or Oliver Queen getting over his sense of adventure and becoming a responsible, sensible adult with more moderate ideals.

This is exactly why Hal and Barry are an easier sell....they're like Superman and Batman, iconic and were built to last with consistent characterizations.

 

[Mr. Earle]

The thing is that Clark and Bruce arent boring, unlike Hal and Barry...

 

[Octoberist]

i still don't understand after 5 years after the 'reboot' some people still think that Hal is boring as a character. I don't. and Barry has been great thus far on the new Flash series.

 

[Drz]

i still don't understand after 5 years after the 'reboot' that Hal is boring as a character. I don't. and Barry has been great thus far on the new Flash series.

Simple. The haters aren't reading the new stuff and jump to conclusions they've heard from haters.... who heard from haters... Yeah it's a tiresome circle when it comes to internet communities. Ignorance breeds intolerance.