Arrow Why did Oliver lose all of his money?

[ZIPBAGS]

Yes, I know he signed over "control" over the company. But, that should have nothing to do with his personal fortune. Thanks!

 

[JC00]

Ya this plot logic was pretty weak. The whole "they lost everything because Thea wouldn't sign" thing.

First off I doubt a billionaire like Robert Queen would have ever had his mansion tied in with his business. Secondly, unless they are saying Oliver used all his personal money to buy the shares but even then just because he signed over control of a company he would still have been bought out of those shares which means he would have got some money with the other money paying back the bank.

I will be shocked if they don't somewhat rectify it by giving Oliver everything back but the actual company and the explainer be he got his stuff back because he was illegally scammed into signing over the company. I mean how else are they going to explain that they are still operating out of the steel mill? Doing it illegally? Unless I missed the news that there was going to be a new base next season.

 

[The Endless]

He is a raging coke head.

 

[lanesrader]

I mean how else are they going to explain that they are still operating out of the steel mill. Unless I missed the news that there was going to be a new base next season.

I think the new base is going to be where Dig and Felicity found Oliver in the beginning of "City of Blood"

 

[JC00]

Could be. Although I think it's kind of dumb to get rid of the base they had because of a logically weak plot that they could easily rectify. Simply as Oliver sued because he was illegally scammed to give up control and in the settlement got the nightclub back or the family had millions in an offshore or unrelated to the business account and he used that to buy it back.

 

[Loki882]

Yeah, they didn't really explain that very well. They said that Isabel was "making the stock worthless," but here's the problem with that:

-They never explain HOW she's doing that.
-If she were doing that, then the Board of Directors might very well fire her ass. Being CEO doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever the Hell you want, especially if it ends up costing the company money.
-It makes Thea look like an idiot. Seriously, sign the papers and then continue to be angry and Oliver/Moira. I really don't buy how she acted there.

 

[mr. peasant]

Ya this plot logic was pretty weak. The whole "they lost everything because Thea wouldn't sign" thing.

First off I doubt a billionaire like Robert Queen would have ever had his mansion tied in with his business. Secondly, unless they are saying Oliver used all his personal money to buy the shares but even then just because he signed over control of a company he would still have been bought out of those shares which means he would have got some money with the other money paying back the bank.

Actually, you'd be surprised what people have tied to their businesses. Taxes on personal income is very well defined and tightly regulated. Where as for business... less so. And you can't get taxed for something you don't own. So, having the business (that you run and own) buy the house, car, yacht, etc and having them given to you as a 'perk' of the job is one way of getting around the various tax laws.

 

[JC00]

But Queen Consolidated isn't a charitable, religious, educational, or government organization. Therefore they'd still have to pay the same property tax.

 

[Arrowshieldfan]

I just hope Oliver regain QC as soon as possible......don't drag this on for all of season 3

 

[Mike Murdock]

-They never explain HOW she's doing that.
-If she were doing that, then the Board of Directors might very well fire her ass. Being CEO doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever the Hell you want, especially if it ends up costing the company money.

I agree that they didn't really effectively explain how she was able to dilute the value of the stock that quickly. However, even if she did it in a way that would result in getting her fired or even if she did it in a way that would make her criminally liable, there wasn't time for the Board of Directors to meet and vote. She also did have majority control over the company and could replace the Board at the next shareholders' meeting.

Once you get over this problem, the rest is straight forward, though. It was explicitly stated that their entire fortune was tied up in the value of the company. I suspect even more so since they had to spend money to buy up unclaimed stock to protect their control.

 

[haephestus]

It was all dubious to me. I generally understood that Oliver spent all of his "cash" money buying up shares in QC and as such, he was cash-poor but still worth plenty because of his shares.

But, I didn't understand how Isabel made Oliver's shares worthless (without making ALL of the shares in the company worthless). I guess she could have simply done that, but there were also background TV reports about QC doing better than ever with Isabel as the CEO following Moira's death. I don't see how diluting the value in QC shares would be a good thing for QC.

I also wasn't sure what happened to Moira's personal fortune. Did she have ALL of her money invested in QC shares? Surely she must have had some cash and some other assets (e.g. property) in her own name which would have been bequeathed to Oliver and Thea. Unless Moira hadn't updated her will since Oliver's return and it all went to Thea. But, that still wouldn't explain why Thea was broke. Of course, it also doesn't explain why Walter wasn't willing to help at least Thea with some money. He'd been her "father" for most of her life, yet he seemed to ditch her pretty quickly and easily because of something her mother had done.

Whatever happened to Oliver's fortune, I'd be happy for Oliver to simply use somewhat nefarious means to fund his operations. Felicity has been shown to be able to easily manipulate the bank accounts of various baddies and I'd have no issue with her transferring funds from known murderers, terrorists, etc into a "Team Arrow" fighting fund. After all, Oliver, Diggle, Felicity and Roy (and Laurel) can't really be expected to work 8am to 6pm "day jobs" to support themselves (i.e. pay for food, clothes, accommodation, crime-fighting gear, super-computers, medical expenses, etc) and then fight crime all night long and still function as human beings.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Although Queen Consolidated is a publicly traded company, who even cares about stock price? Best I could tell, there are two owners at that point (or three if you count the White Knight bank): Oliver and Isabel. Given this, I think diluting the value of stock, while bad for shareholders, would be fine for the strength of the company as a whole.

BTW, isn't Oliver still 50% owner of the company?

 

[Arrowshieldfan]

Although Queen Consolidated is a publicly traded company, who even cares about stock price? Best I could tell, there are two owners at that point (or three if you count the White Knight bank): Oliver and Isabel. Given this, I think diluting the value of stock, while bad for shareholders, would be fine for the strength of the company as a whole.

BTW, isn't Oliver still 50% owner of the company?

I think in the deathstroke episode....Isabel manage to get majority control of company when Oliver give her the CEO position....I believe Isabel had 60% of the company while Oliver only has 40%.

This is coming from arrow wiki

 

[Mike Murdock]

My understanding was that they both had 50%, but he basically used his voting share to vote for her to take all the actions.

Either way, my point was that, if it's possible to dilute the value of stocks (perhaps by releasing more stocks, I don't know), then there's no one to complain about it besides Oliver.

 

[Loki882]

I guess that it's not so much the plot itself so much as the lack of a reasonable explanation as to how it worked that was the problem. We get a couple of lines about it, like the "worthless stock" ones, but those just raise more questions. I think that the showrunners just didn't do much research as the how business/the stock market works (just like they didn't do much research on the legal system judging by how ridiculous the Moira trial plotline was).

 

[Roadkill]

Still not getting how ceding control of the company to Isabel made Oliver's shares in the company worthless. I can't think of any action she could have taken to have achieved this result that would not have required full compliance of the board in defiance of their fiduciary duties, would not have brought the SEC down on them like the hand of God, and would have not effectively wrecked the company. Entirely preposterous scenario with virtually no explanation.

 

[JC00]

(just like they didn't do much research on the legal system judging by how ridiculous the Moira trial plotline was).

What was ridiculous about it? She was arrested, charged, and had the trial. The only thing was that it all happened in a span of about 7 months. Which in real life wouldn't have been the case. But this is a show and they couldn't have it drag on all season.

 

[Loki882]

Well for one thing, Laurel being one of the prosecutors on the case was laughably ridiculous. She's the ex-girlfriend or the defendants son, her sister was having an affair with the defendants son, she was also the ex-girlfriend of the defendants son's best friend, who just so happened to also be the co-conspirator's son, the Queen mansion was like a second home to her, she practically grew up there and was treated like a member of the family. Oh and her dad was a cop who was investigating the Queen's in season 1, etc. There's so much conflict of interest with her that you'd need a chainsaw to even begin to cut through it. She's not getting ANYWHERE NEAR that case. And the "my boss assigned me to it" doesn't cut it because NO DA is going to do that, precisely for the reasons that I've mentioned, and NO judge is going to allow it either.

 

[Mike Murdock]

^ Yeah, the conflict of interest there was uncomfortable. There was also some line skirting involving contacting defendants represented by counsel.

Still not getting how ceding control of the company to Isabel made Oliver's shares in the company worthless. I can't think of any action she could have taken to have achieved this result that would not have required full compliance of the board in defiance of their fiduciary duties, would not have brought the SEC down on them like the hand of God, and would have not effectively wrecked the company. Entirely preposterous scenario with virtually no explanation.

Is it possible to think of something that could be reversed by the Board of Directors but doesn't necessarily require their prior permission? The SEC might very well act, but they have to investigate and file a lawsuit, it can't happen in a matter of days, which is what happened here. The only thing I can think of is simply issuing more stock (not splitting the stock or anything like that, just issuing more). I think even doing that would plummet the value of the company because the value of the new stock would be obviously dubious. However, it's the best I can think of (and it's at least something that can be arguably justified as raising revenue rather than purely self-destructive for spite).

 

[JC00]

Ya that wouldn't happen in the real world. But if they hadn't of forced Laurel in that storyline she would have been in about 10 scenes in the first 9 episodes.

It's like they were all set for Laurel to go after The Arrow but then ditched those plans after 3 episodes and said "oh crap we don't really have anything for Laurel other than the pills and booze storyline, let's throw her in Moira's trial storyline"

 

[Roadkill]

The only thing I can think of is simply issuing more stock (not splitting the stock or anything like that, just issuing more). I think even doing that would plummet the value of the company because the value of the new stock would be obviously dubious. However, it's the best I can think of (and it's at least something that can be arguably justified as raising revenue rather than purely self-destructive for spite).

The problem here is that a CEO can't issue stock without board approval so we're back to the board having to be complicit in Isabel's scheme for no obvious reason. Any new stock issuance that any sane board would approve would only mildly depress the stock price not crater it and often the price eventually rebounds to the old level because new stock issuance is usually done by vibrant, growing companies that investors want to be a part of.

 

[Loki882]

Plus, Oliver owned 50% of the company. So tanking his shares (even if she somehow could havemagically selectively targeted just his shares) would very adversely affect the company's bottom line, which the board wouldn't allow.

 

[JC00]

They also really missed the boat on him dropping shares onto the market in "Time of Death". At least then it could be argued that Isabel bought them up and became majority shareholder and had the power to do what happened.

Couple that with Slade returning and Oliver being distracted because of it over the next few episodes.

Like i'm pretty sure when that happened everyone thought it was going to come back to bite him.

 

[Mike Murdock]

The problem here is that a CEO can't issue stock without board approval so we're back to the board having to be complicit in Isabel's scheme for no obvious reason. Any new stock issuance that any sane board would approve would only mildly depress the stock price not crater it and often the price eventually rebounds to the old level because new stock issuance is usually done by vibrant, growing companies that investors want to be a part of.

Yeah, it's really hard to come up with an explanation, isn't it? If she had majority voting share, could she have replaced the board?

 

[jonathancrane]

Quite simply, cos the writers said so.

Poof!