Superman Returns Why Don't Some Superman Fans Like Superman Returns?

[Angeloz]

So because it disappointed some of you or some hated it therefore some of you don't think it a great film. Fine I get it. But can't any of you accept that some people loved it and thought it great? No?

What about a water pistol fight instead?

Angeloz
'

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

All I'm saying is that SR may have been a fun and enjoyable movie (I didn't like it, but that's an opinion), but that doesn't make it a great film. What would make it a great film, as in, likely to have won Academy awards, or be featured in a 'Top 10 Movies of All Time' list in years to come, or be studied and appreciated by film critics and students, would be deep characterisation and character development, a well thought out plot and storylines, beautiful cinematography, and brilliant acting.

Why is it that any number of you can come on here and say that SR was a 'great' movie, without giving any explanation, but if I come on here and say that it was not, and give my reasons, I get all this 'you can't say this, you can say that' crap instead of some kind of logical counter-argument? Why don't you tell me your criteria for what makes a 'great' film and explain to me why SR meets these requirements?

Well IMO it was both fun and enjoyable AND a great movie, why cant you get your head around that? It would make my personal top 30 at the moment and i honestly couldnt name 100 movies that are better that i have seen. The movie is full of character development, do you honestly think the Superman at the start of the movie is the same as the one at the end? That just silly (to quote yourself). You saying its not a great movie is simply an opinion, why cant you get this?

The movie is acclaimed by critics and fans around the world, so if that is you basis for a great movie, then it is isnt it? As for my explanation why, i have explained that in detail MANY times over the last 18 months, so look up those posts.

Personally, i think Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[El Payaso]

Unless Robin has ever been a toddler then you're wrong.

It has been in some Loeb/Sale comics.

And what the hell do you mean Batman's character has nothing to do with paternity? The whole reason he exists is because of his parents.

It's about injustice.

He's a bitter loner who lives trying to bring a sense to his life by bringing justice to this world, which seems to be impossible for just one man, but still he tries. The last thing Batman (the character created by Bruce Wayne) needs is a son. The minute he has a son, his life gets a meaning and Batman is needless anymore. His life would have a meaning.

I agree that this was a little out of character and not in keeping with Superman's supposed morality,

It was totally and absolutely out of character.

Not that Superman can't approach to that guy and teach him a lesson. But not going down to his level and use (abuse of) his physical strenght to knock the guy out and have a personal revenge.

a) it was fun!

Sure it was. But out of character. For that matter, not more out of character than Superman being afraid of saying good-bye to Lois because he knew he wasn't going to be able to leave if he did. And at least that served to develope the conflict, not merely as a joke or a fun moment.

b) it's an expression of some of the deeper psychology pertaining to Superman (and superheroes in general) and more specifically the concept of the dual identity.

I have to disagree.

Batman and Bruce Wayne or Hulk and Bruice Banner could be examples of duality, where one would do things the other never would.

But Superman and Clark are the same person all the way. One is the external disguise for the other (some say Superman is the disguise for Clark, some say it's the other way around), but they basically hold the same morals.

So what are you saying? That there ARE no good or bad films, only films that you like or dislike?

Basically. And then there are backgrounds for our opinions. And the value of those arguments will give you the credit to state that certain film is good or bad.

Also, I would like to point out that opinion polls and critical reviews have been used in this thread as 'proof' of what a 'great' film SR is.

I haven't. Those prove nothing but popularity.

I can't help noticing you didn't seem to have a problem with them when they were being used to support an opinion you share.

Please show me where.

Maybe, MAYBE as a counterpoint to someone who previously used those arguments to defend a point. Then I was proving the weakness of his point, not that polls are definitive proof of a movie's quality.

Anyway, the point that I'm trying (repeatedly) to make here, is that I don't think Superman Returns was really that bad a movie. It was OK, it really was! But Superman is my hero of choice (for want of a better expression) and I've enjoyed most of the other superhero movies that have been released. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say that some of them were great films! But as I said, Superman is the one I like the most, the one I wrote my dissertation on, the one I read and collect in comics and other bits of crap that I can't help buying when I see the emblem on them, and I really, REALLY wanted SR to be a mind-blowingly good movie! As in an indisputible classic, TRULY great movie that WOULD go down in history. Maybe I'm asking too much. In fact I definitely am.

But come on, honestly, was no one else even a little dissapointed?

I was personally dissapointed at the copnstant winks to Donner movies' dialogues. Those were annoying. And some of the humour I disliked it too. But I put SR over that average teen comedy called Spiderman 1 any day of the week.

Now give me The Godfather and SR has nothing to do about it. Happily there's room enough for both in my life.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

The reason why some fans don't like SR,is because people messed with the dynamics of Superman.Giving him "real world problems" was the worse move.Mainly,the son.

 

[Super Kal]

I'm implying that the argument is so weak it wçcan be used validly the other way around.

sounds to me that who ever disagrees with you means that they're automatically wrong...

 

[El Payaso]

sounds to me that who ever disagrees with you means that they're automatically wrong...

If that was the way I'm thinking I wouldn't bother to give any argumentation to back myself up.

 

[Super Kal]

then why tell people to go watch more movies just because they don't like SR?

 

[El Payaso]

then why tell people to go watch more movies just because they don't like SR?

Because, once again, writing the same line with reversed meaning and still making the same sense proves that the premise of that idea was weak.

For the same matter, why aren't you asking him why tell people to go watch more movies just because they like SR?

 

[dr collossus]

Batman and Bruce Wayne or Hulk and Bruice Banner could be examples of duality, where one would do things the other never would.

That's not what I meant, I was referring to the pre-adolescant 'if only you knew who I really was' fantasy. If you read Superman on the Couch by Danny Fingeroth (it's pop-psychology stuff but quite interesting anyway) you'll see what I mean.

Oh and by the way, fair enough to everything else you said.

 

[El Payaso]

That's not what I meant, I was referring to the pre-adolescant 'if only you knew who I really was' fantasy. If you read Superman on the Couch by Danny Fingeroth (it's pop-psychology stuff but quite interesting anyway) you'll see what I mean.

Ah ok, didn't get what you say then. But now I do.

Oh and by the way, fair enough to everything else you said.

Same here man.

 

[dr collossus]

Well IMO it was both fun and enjoyable AND a great movie, why cant you get your head around that? It would make my personal top 30 at the moment and i honestly couldnt name 100 movies that are better that i have seen. The movie is full of character development, do you honestly think the Superman at the start of the movie is the same as the one at the end? That just silly (to quote yourself). You saying its not a great movie is simply an opinion, why cant you get this?

The movie is acclaimed by critics and fans around the world, so if that is you basis for a great movie, then it is isnt it? As for my explanation why, i have explained that in detail MANY times over the last 18 months, so look up those posts.

Personally, i think Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Cool, fair enough then. So basically the diplomatic solution is that there are no great films. You though SR was one, I didn't, but really it doesn't matter to anyone other than ourselves because frankly beyond the scope of our own opinions the definition of a 'great' film is meaningless anyway.

 

[Super Kal]

For the same matter, why aren't you asking him why tell people to go watch more movies just because they like SR?

because I'm not trying to force my opinion onto him... I don't have a problem with him liking it, but it becomes a problem when people shout their opinions like it's fact.

 

[DarkMajin]

It was totally and absolutely out of character.

Not that Superman can't approach to that guy and teach him a lesson. But not going down to his level and use (abuse of) his physical strenght to knock the guy out and have a personal revenge.



Sure it was. But out of character. For that matter, not more out of character than Superman being afraid of saying good-bye to Lois because he knew he wasn't going to be able to leave if he did. And at least that served to develope the conflict, not merely as a joke or a fun moment.

To comment in the "trucker" scene from PArt II...what alternative way of dealing with him would have been in character for Superman, in your opinion?
The guy was a bully, who jacked up a weaker guy before (Clark)...and now Supes gave the guy a taste of his own medicine still as Clark.

In comparing to his behavior in SR...he was thinking more for himself than for Lois or the world. As I remember, in the book anyways, he already was considering never returning to earth at all.
I'm not sure if the SR Superman was meant to still be the Donner Superman or not..but whole bit of tends to dampen what kind of person Supes is supposed to be.

 

[slave2catwoman]

I enjoyed it, but I could never call this movie great. Can you honestly put it up there with The Godfather or Cool Hand Luke? It was more a homage to the original, and nowhere near as good.

 

[El Payaso]

because I'm not trying to force my opinion onto him...

I know, just onto me.

I don't have a problem with him liking it,

That's because he's implyiong he actually did not like it.

Which also explains why you're not telling him a word as you do with me.

but it becomes a problem when people shout their opinions like it's fact.

Tell me who's doing that man. I'm against that too as you could see in this very thread.

 

[El Payaso]

To comment in the "trucker" scene from PArt II...what alternative way of dealing with him would have been in character for Superman, in your opinion?

To start with I don't think it's part of Superman's mission to stop average bullies unless they're commiting a crime. Clark had the chance of dealing with him and failed. But as Superman, he might have stopped Rocky from bullying someone else, not having a personmal vendetta. And always as Superman, the symbol. Superman could have easily used his super-strenght against an object as intimidation and told him to stop. Rocky would have never dared to go against Superman; that's why he went as Clark, to provoke Rocky. But never using his super-strenght directly against a simple human.

But again, I don't think bullies are Superman's problem.

The guy was a bully, who jacked up a weaker guy before (Clark)...and now Supes gave the guy a taste of his own medicine still as Clark.

That's the definition of personal revenge. Which is out of Superman's character.

In comparing to his behavior in SR...he was thinking more for himself than for Lois or the world. As I remember, in the book anyways, he already was considering never returning to earth at all.

Going to Krypton was his obligation to his roots. That was in the first place for Superman. His own world.

I'm not sure if the SR Superman was meant to still be the Donner Superman or not..but whole bit of tends to dampen what kind of person Supes is supposed to be.

Being a vague sequel witth so many winks and so many common elements, I'd say it was supposed to be the same.

 

[SuperDaniel]

First of all, El Payaso, I`m not forcing anything. I`m trying to explain how i feel about the movie and trying to show arguments that prove my point of view.

I made a comment about the movies because obviously a person who devotes his life and has studied storytelling like myself and have watched thousand of movies can spot plotholes easily in movies. And i`m not even talking about plotholes in SR. I`m talking about Superman as a character and his morals.

Secondly, You keep bringing the amensia kiss and that wasnt even Donner`s idea. Its obviously a terrible scene but you seem to keep bringing this scene to back your argument thats been proven wrong many times by me and mego joe.

Thirdly, Me and mego joe never said the Donner movies were perfect. But the core of the character in those movies was intact. The good outweighted the bad and thats not the case with SR.

The point of SII is that he made a selfish reason to give up of his powers to be with Lois. However it wasnt THAT selfish because Lois loves him and he loves her. So the reason behind it was to make Lois happy and be a husband to her. However, he learned through the events of the movie that he cant be with her and be Superman at the same time. Thats the lesson. He has a duty with mankind. Not because his father said so. Because its his choice. He choses to go back to the fortress to get his powers back.

When SR starts, Superman already made 2 mistakes for pure selfish reasons and hurt everybody in the process and this is the point we`re trying to argue.

1)He never said Lois goodbye.

In all 70`s of history of the character of Superman, Lois has always been Superman`s one and true love. Its his Jane, Juliet, whatever u feel like it.

Now i`m not talking about comics. I`m talking about morals. Being in love with someone means putting her happyness over yours. Because when you see your loved one happy, it makes you happy. He would never hurt on purpose. This is for everybody, men or Supermen.

Superman however is not the normal human being. He is above us. He is supposed to be an inspiration in every aspect of life. This is how Superman has been portrayed for 70 years and why he endured so long. Dont bring up stupid stories from the comics to back up your aguments. GET THIS. Many writers of the comics get Superman wrong too. Thats why those stories are long forgotten or will be someday. The great ones are the ones that will live forever.

GET THIS. DONNER SUPERMAN IS THE BEST INTERPRETATION OF SUPERMAN IN THE BIG SCREEN TILL NOW BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN THERE CANT BE BETTER ONES. THATS WHAT ME AS FAN WANT WHEN I GO TO THE THEATER TO WATCH A SUPERMAN MOVIE.

In this case, with SR, Superman, because of the estabilished relationship with Lois Lane in the previous movies OR comics (vague sequel), should`ve, like always, put Lois above himself.

THe BIG INCONSITENCY in SR and the WHOLE PLOT OF THE MOVIE IS BASED IN THE IDEA THAT SUPERMAN SCREWS UP and doesnt SAY GOODBYE TO LOIS.

The reason for this in the movie is that Superman DOESNT HAVE THE BALLS TO DO WHATS RIGHT because he loves her too much so if he see her one more time, he wouldn`t be able to go.

THIS IS COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS and how can u not see this?

Superman is purposely hurting Lois Lane and everyone around him.

SUPERMAN DOESNT MAKE THIS TYPE OF MISTAKE AND THIS IS OUT OF THE CHARACTER.

Maybe Spider-man does. Or Indiana Jones. Or Wolverine. Or Batman. Or me and you.

But Superman is none of the above. He is more.

Yes, he has human emotions. But his emotions are still based on something that makes him more than us. His sense of right and wrong, his integrity.

Because the GA and Marvel fans who never read great stories from the comics have the stupid idea that Superman is boring and MR perfect, Singer came to Superman with the Marvel idea to humanize him by making him like every character in the Marvel Universe, like X-men.

A loner, a stranger, a reject of the society.

However, the basic idea of Superman is that even in the greatest tragedy that has ever happened to him, wich is Krypton exploding when he was baby, he still learned the lesson of hope, wich is his parents making the sacrifice to save him. There is no big tragedy in his life. He is always about hope.

Superman is not a Marvel character and shouldn`t be treated as so.

Singer made the character himself. A lone, strange, reject. However Superman is not Singer, me, you, mego joe or anyone. This is great for every type of movie. Directors who put their own feelings into their characters.BUT THAT DOESNT WORK IN A SUPERMAN MOVIE. Because He is SUPERman.

He is more.

The 2nd mistake is obviously not telling the world where he is going.

Superman is the kind of the character that is a leader. He gives speeches to the world. See SIV, Lois & Clark, etc. He is the kind of character that is TRUTH AND JUSTICE personalized.

The Superman i know the moment he found about about the existence of Krypton would make a public conference, Or at least, say this to one of the famous reporters of the Daily Planet.

"People of Earth. I`ve always devoted my life to help as much as i can. With the possibility of Krypton being alive, there is a chance that more superpowered people would come to Earth like what happened so i have to go back to see if theres any possible threats. I`m the only one who can do this."

He would leave exactely like he did and even if Lois published the article it would mean nothing because people would still think Superman did the right thing. And even her would think twice before publishing it because in the end, everybody would know that Superman made the right move, even if it hurts him and her in the process, to the fact they cant have a relationship.

And this being a hero. Put people first before himself.

In SR, he doesnt say goodbye to anybody, so, superman leaves to krypton because he is felling lonely and hurts lois.

2 inconsistencies that is a proof that Superman acted out of character IN THIS MOVIE AND that reflects that Singer doesnt know the character at all. At least not when he made SR. He humanized the character WAY TOO MUCH and forgot about his integrity.

Lets not even get into little problems like Clark asking Lois into a date, or saying "Not like this", or drinking beer, or Singer making Jason kill people out of self defence, or Superman killing the 3 goons in the island because he was saving Earth.

He can make Man of Steel a great movie we all can love and thats what me as a fan want and hope.

But he didnt do it with SR. He tried his best`m sure and made SR with all his best intentions. But that wasnt enough.

HE JUST NEEDS TO DO MORE.

 

[DarkMajin]

To start with I don't think it's part of Superman's mission to stop average bullies unless they're commiting a crime. Clark had the chance of dealing with him and failed. But as Superman, he might have stopped Rocky from bullying someone else, not having a personmal vendetta. And always as Superman, the symbol. Superman could have easily used his super-strenght against an object as intimidation and told him to stop. Rocky would have never dared to go against Superman; that's why he went as Clark, to provoke Rocky. But never using his super-strenght directly against a simple human.

But again, I don't think bullies are Superman's problem.

On one hand I could see Superman doing something like that with a bully...however in this case the bully actually had gone after Clark himself, rather than another person...had it been another person, then more likely than not it would have been Supes teaching the lesson.
Clark being the one to do it pretty much was like poetic justice.

There actually can be a fine line between revenge and justice.
Clark didn't even punch the guy as I remember...it was the bully who threw the first punch.

As for whether Supes should bother with bullies...well, he did stop to save a kitten in a tree.

That's the definition of personal revenge. Which is out of Superman's character.

Maybe that bully will think twice about bothering other people?

I don't think it conceivably just falls under pure revenge.

Going to Krypton was his obligation to his roots. That was in the first place for Superman. His own world.



Being a vague sequel witth so many winks and so many common elements, I'd say it was supposed to be the same.

If he was the Donner Supes...the earth had become his first place.
Had there been some kind of Kryptonian threat or something against the earth, then he would have reason...but as it was presented in SR...he discarded the earth, and even Lois in favor of going to Krypton because he...apparently felt alone and alien on the earth (?).

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

This is one of the few times that I'm going to agree with El Payaso, I also think that most Superman fans are convenantly forgetting about the stupid and silly things that Donner did in the beloved Superman: The Movie.

 

[SuperDaniel]

On one hand I could see Superman doing something like that with a bully...however in this case the bully actually had gone after Clark himself, rather than another person...had it been another person, then more likely than not it would have been Supes teaching the lesson.
Clark being the one to do it pretty much was like poetic justice.

There actually can be a fine line between revenge and justice.
Clark didn't even punch the guy as I remember...it was the bully who threw the first punch.

As for whether Supes should bother with bullies...well, he did stop to save a kitten in a tree.

Maybe that bully will think twice about bothering other people?

I don't think it conceivably just falls under pure revenge.

If he was the Donner Supes...the earth had become his first place.
Had there been some kind of Kryptonian threat or something against the earth, then he would have reason...but as it was presented in SR...he discarded the earth, and even Lois in favor of going to Krypton because he...apparently felt alone and alien on the earth (?).

Couldn`t have said it better myself!

 

[SuperDaniel]

This is one of the few times that I'm going to agree with El Payaso, I also think that most Superman fans are convenantly forgetting about the stupid and silly things that Donner did in the beloved Superman: The Movie.

I sure dont. I HATE LUTHOR, OTIS, TESCHMACHER, AMENSIA KISS and i dont like the Donner cut of SII. I love Selutron`s work, though.

This why i dont think Donner is the be all end all of Superman movies but is still the best interpretation of Superman on the big screen cause i think the good outweighted the bad.

CHRISTOPHER REEVE, MAN!

 

[C. Lee]

What about a water pistol fight instead? '

I'm in the middle of drought conditions here....how about a pillow fight?

 

[El Payaso]

First of all, El Payaso, I`m not forcing anything. I`m trying to explain how i feel about the movie and trying to show arguments that prove my point of view.

At one point you were just telling things about me, not the discusaion. I'm glad at least you're giving argments.

I made a comment about the movies because obviously a person who devotes his life and has studied storytelling like myself and have watched thousand of movies can spot plotholes easily in movies. And i`m not even talking about plotholes in SR. I`m talking about Superman as a character and his morals.

And somehow you assume everyone who liked SR haven't seen as many movies as you. I'd like to know how you come up with this conlcusion. And you probably know even Citizen Kane has plotholes.

Secondly, You keep bringing the amensia kiss since that wasnt even Donner`s idea. Its obviously a terrible scene but you seem to keep bringing this scene to back your argument thats been proven wrong many times by me and mego joe.

No you haven't. You haven't explained how is so moral for Superman to manipulate minds like that.

And even if it wasn't Donner's idea, it's included in Superman II, SR being a vague sequel to those, at least it would explain why Superman's decisions are not always 100% moral and ethical.

Thirdly, Me and mego joe never said the Donner movies were perfect.

Yes I don't see you posting about it in Miscelaneous movies board.

But the core of the character in those movies was intact. The good outweighted the bad, not the case with SR.

The mind manipulation, killing Zod and personal vendetta on the truckdriver prove you wrong about this.

The point of SII is that he made a selfish reason to give up of his powers to be with Lois. However it wasnt THAT selfish because Lois loves him and he loves her. So the reason behind it was to make Lois happy and be a husband to her.

Would have Superman in SII give up his powers in order to have Lois with another man if he knew she was going to be happy? I don't think so. Superman did this for her as much as for him. Selfishness respect to the rest of the Earth, who needed his help and he knew this.

However, he learned through the events of the movie that he cant be with her and be Superman at the same time. Thats the lesson. He has a duty with mankind. Not because his father said so. Because its his choice. He choses to go back to the fortress to get his powers back.

He made a mistake and after that he realizes it and come back to fix things up.

Sounds a lot like SR.

When SR starts, Superman already made 2 mistakes for pure selfish reasons and hurt everybody in the process and this is the point we`re trying to argue.

It's quite known human can make more than 2 mistakes and very often the same mistake more than once.

1)He never said Lois goodbye.

Awful mistake, I myself have said that many times. I'd have never had the story with that.

That said, it's not as bad as minmd manipulation, killing Zod or having a personal vendetta on a human being abusing of super-powers.

Superman however is not the normal human being. He is above us. He is supposed to be an inspiration in every aspect of life. This is how Superman have been portrayed for 70 years and why he endured so long. Dont bring up stupid stories from the comics to back up your aguments. GET THIS. Many writers of the comics get Superman wrong too. Thats why those stories are long forgotten or will be someday. The ones that remain in every fan minds are the ones that will forever.

Comics or not, in STM and SII, Superman has proven to make selfish decisions. In that order, SR is not the exception.

GET THIS. DONNER SUPERMAN IS THE BEST INTERPRETATION OF SUPERMAN IN THE BIG SCREEN TILL NOW BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN THERE CANT BE BETTER ONES. THATS WHAT ME AS FAN WANT WHEN I GO TO THE THEATER
TO WATCH A SUPERMAN MOVIE.

YOU SUPERMAN FANS ALREADY HAVE SEEN MOVIES WHERE SUPERMAN MAKES SELFISH DECISIONS AND AWFUL MISTAKES, SUDDENLY IT'S HORRIFYING.

AND CAPITAL LETTERS MAKES NO POINT HAVE YOU NOTICED?

In this case, with SR, Superman because of the estabilished relationship with Lois Lane in the previous movies OR comics (vague sequel), he would always put Lois above himself.

Yes he should. But he didn't.

He should have respected Lois' mind and memories too, but he didn't.

He should have not killed Zod after de-powering him, but he did.

He shouldn't have get a personal vendetta on the truckdriver, but he did.

That said, it was his trip to Krypton what he puts over Lois AND over himself here.

If for him, he stays with Lois and his already stablished relationship. That wpould have been selfish: the hell with Krypton's possible survivors, I'll stay with my girl.

THe BIG INCONSITENCY in SR and the WHOLE PLOT OF THE MOVIE IS BASED IN THE IDEA THAT SUPERMAN SCREWS UP and doesnt SAY GOODBYE TO LOIS.

HOW IS THAT INCONSISTENCY IF IT TRIGGERS THE WHOLE CONFLICT BETWEEN THE TWO MAIN CHARACTERS AND IT'S NEVER DENIED?

THE WHOLE PREMISE OF SUPERMAN II IS SUPERMAN MAKES A MISTAKE (SCREWS UP). SAME AS IN SR.

The reason for this in the movie is that Superman DOESNT HAVE THE BALLS TO DO WHATS RIGHT because he loves her too much so if he see her one more time, he wouldn`t be able to go.

The reason for giving up his powers in SII is that Superman DOESNT HAVE THE BALLS TO DO WHATS RIGHT because he loves her too much so if he doesn't defy Jor-El or accept his mission forbids him to be with Lois, he HAS to just accept a relationship between him and Lois can't be. But he refuses to.

THIS IS COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS and how can u not see this?

It's not the first time Supereman doesn't do what he should. How can you not see that.

Superman is purposely hurting Lois Lane and everyone around him.

Superman is purposely leaving the world defensless just to be with Lois and then he strips Lois of her mamories and rights over her body and mind. That's quite a damage too.

SUPERMAN DOESNT MAKE THIS TYPE OF MISTAKE AND THIS IS OUT OF THE CHARACTER.

SUPERMAN HAS MADE THIS TYPE OF MISTAKE IN MOVIES; OUT OF THE CHARACTER OR NOT.

Maybe Spider-man does. Or Indiana Jones. Or Wolverine. Or Batman. Or me and you.

Or Superman. In movies.

But Superman is none of the above. He is more.

Not according to Donner and Lester.

 

[El Payaso]

Yes, he has human emotions. But his emotions are still based on something that makes him more than us. His sense of right and wrong, his integrity.

Once again, not in the Donner-Lester movies. Not totally.

Because the GA and Marvel fans who never read great stories from the comics have the stupid idea that Superman is boring and MR perfect, Singer came to Superman with the Marvel idea to humanize Superman by making him like every character in the Marvel Universe, like X-men.

But Donner and Lester already made him doubtful about his mission and such. Not the first time to happen. Singer just followed this very path.

However, the basic idea of Superman is that even in the greatest tragedy that has ever happened to him, wich is Krypton exploding when he was baby, he still learned the lesson of hope, wich is his parents making the sacrifice to save him.

Like in SR, in spite of everything he learn a lesson of hope. Jason showed him that maybe Lois was not the most important thing in the world. His mission was not to be with her but to give life to a son.

Superman is not a Marvel character and shouldn`t be treated as so.

Marvel doesn't opwn the rights for superheroes with conflicts that I know.

Singer made the character himself. A lone, strange, reject. However Superman is not himself, me, you, mego joe or anyone. This is great in every type of movie. NOT A SUPERMAN MOVIE. Because He is SUPERman.

No, Superman feels lonely becasue after 5 years alone, he realized he lost thin gs that were valuable for him. In no case is a reject, people love him a whole lot as it's clearly shown.

The 2nd mistake is obviously not telling the world where he is going.

I don't remember Superman telling the world he was quitting his mission in Superman II. In fact everyone from the President to kids in the street were wondering where the hell he was, not knowing he wasn't planning to come back. Oops.

Superman is the kind of the character that is a leader. He gives speeches to the world. See SIV, Lois & Clark, etc. He is the kind of character that is TRUTH AND JUSTICE personalized.

He wants to be a leader he better run for President. Supeerman should teach with nhis example not speeches. Please don't make me watch or believe in Superman IV or Lois & Clark. If that's where you get the Superman character, what am I doing here replying?

The Superman i know the moment he found about about the existence of Krypton would make a public conference, Or at least, he would say this to one of our famous reporters of the Daily Planet.

Again, the "Superman you know" would at least tell the world he's planning omn retiring? Because when he retired... he didn't. Maybe you don't know him as well as you thought.

"People of Earth. I`ve always devoted my life to help as much as i can. With the possibility of Krypton being alive, there is a possibility that more superpowered people would come to Earth like what happened so i have to go back to see if theres any possible threats. I`m the one one who can do this."

"People of Earth, my dad told me it was giving up powers to be with my girl or defending you... so... I'm giving up my powers, any problem you have, don't count on me, I'll be with my girl"

But no, he didn't say anything.

Wich is, to be a hero. Put people first before himself.

The irony of you saying this and Superman's choice in SII is so vast...

In SR, he doesnt say goodbye to anybody, so, superman leaves to krypton because he is felling lonely and hurt lois.

He goes there to see if there are any survivors.

2 inconsistencies that is a proof that Superman acted out of character IN THIS MOVIE AND that reflects that Singer doesnt know the character at all. At least not when he made SR. He humanized the character WAY TOO MUCH and forgot about his integrity.

And Donner and Lester did it first.

Lets not even get into little problems like Clark asking Lois into a date, or saying "Not like this", or drinking beer, or Singer making Jason kill people out of self defence, or Superman killing the 3 goons in the island because he was saving Earth.

Or manipulating minds, or killing Zod, letting Non to kill himself and letting Lois to kill Ursa, or having a personal vendetta on Rocky.

 

[X Knight]

and on a completely different note..........meow!! meow!!


.........we now return to the debate on hand.........