Superman Returns Why Don't Some Superman Fans Like Superman Returns?

[AnorexicBatman]

I want Clancy Brown's Luthor in the movies
Make him black for all I care
That is Luthor for all intents and purposes

 

[afan]

Is there a canon of Green K beyond the fact that it weakens him? I have seen many variations of it's effects on him whenever it's used.

As you said, Green K immediately incapacitates Superman creating a severe and certain weakness. Prolonged exposure is fatal.
That's pretty much a baseline, or canon if you will, across all the variations, and creates the flaw in it's use in SR.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

It seems you're missing the point.......The flaw has nothing to do with the power granting nature of the sun.

It has to do with the Green K. Green K immediately incapacitates Superman, there is no defense against it's influence, save for the sheilding properties of lead. No matter how much Superman "powers up" the presence of Green K drops him in his tracks.

Now some have argued that the Green K in NK was not pure, which explains the ability for Superman to resist it while lifting NK into orbit, but does not fit his inability to resist it long enough to take out Luthor's thugs.

The flaw is inarguably there.

Well I am of the belief that the Kryptonite was diluted on NK, but I think by the time it came to his beating, it had more than enough time to weaken him significantly. It didnt weaken him instantly, otherwise his hard landing would have crushed him, but after a few minutes of him speaking with Lex, etc, it had completely weakened him. Hell it could have completely weakened him 10/15 seconds after he landed, but his landing on NK showed it didnt weaken him instantly. This, IMO is how he was able to lift NK into space, despite the fact that it very nearly killed him.

 

[Kellys Heroes]

The Climax and Super-Boy story line killed it for me. Before that it wasn't to bad.

 

[stargazer]

there is no flaw. Superman is solar powered, and right before lifting new krypton into space, he repowered himself by direct contact with sunlight.

a boost from solar energy before the deed? That's enough to for me, as long as he soon pays the price of a downfall. Which happened. It did eventually incapacitate him. There's also the emotions to take into account (caused by knowing that many, many people were about die, the earth about to be doomed, and also the thirst for vengeance and justice given lex & co.'s cruel and ruthless behavior toward him in the last few scenes), likely also served as a boost; akin to or plain being an adrenaline rush. To ignore that is to be blind to the obvious.

Those were all sufficient enough to help him save the earth, but not sufficient enough to stop him from crashing and going into a coma soon afterward. The flaw is inarguably absent on an objective level.

is there a canon of green k beyond the fact that it weakens him? I have seen many variations of it's effects on him whenever it's used.

it's always been as strong as the story calls for, just like superman's hearing ability.

well i am of the belief that the kryptonite was diluted on nk, but i think by the time it came to his beating, it had more than enough time to weaken him significantly. It didnt weaken him instantly, otherwise his hard landing would have crushed him, but after a few minutes of him speaking with lex, etc, it had completely weakened him. Hell it could have completely weakened him 10/15 seconds after he landed, but his landing on nk showed it didnt weaken him instantly. This, imo is how he was able to lift nk into space, despite the fact that it very nearly killed him.

Very, very well said!

 

[Wushuboy]

Well I am of the belief that the Kryptonite was diluted on NK, but I think by the time it came to his beating, it had more than enough time to weaken him significantly. It didnt weaken him instantly, otherwise his hard landing would have crushed him, but after a few minutes of him speaking with Lex, etc, it had completely weakened him. Hell it could have completely weakened him 10/15 seconds after he landed, but his landing on NK showed it didnt weaken him instantly. This, IMO is how he was able to lift NK into space, despite the fact that it very nearly killed him.

ok here's a question for you, can superman control his absorption of sunlight or is he constantly absorbing it and storing it? Now as far as I understand it his body absorbs as much as it can and stores the rest like a battery. He doesn't have the ability to just turn it on or off nor does he have the ability to increase or decrease how much he absorbs.. he just does. His body doesnt discharge itself all the way before he recharges again. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

With that being said, let's think about this.

He lands on NK... an island full of kryptonite. Ok let's assume it's diluted as you say. In the couple minutes it took him to talk to luthor it completely weakened him. Now.. let's also take into account the fact that just minutes before he landed on NK he was in the city in full sunlight saving people. During this time his body must have been absorbing sunlight to replenish any that he was using to save people. So... when he landed on NK he was very close to being fully charged. Now within a few minutes his powers are rendered useless and he succumbs to the Kryptonite. So we have that as a baseline for how long this diluted kryptonite takes to affect him. Never mind that it's actually the radiation from kryptonite that affects him and not the physical crystal itself. We have to also remember the fact that during this encounter on NK, none of the kryptonite was actually exposed to him. It was all under the rock.

Ok so after he gets his butt handed to him and having a shard of kryptonite lodged in his side, he's still able to fly up over the clouds to recharge. Before this his power level should be really low but only enough to allow him some flight. I mean after all he was pretty much dying at this point. Now people are assuming that he gets "supercharged" during this flight up to the sky. Why is that? Well, some people think because he's flying closer to the sun and there's sunlight all around him thus drowning him in sunlight. Remember, he's still within the earth's atmosphere. So ok he's charged at this point and his body is just charging up as much as it can. OK i can accept this part. no problem.

Here's where the problem is for me anyway.

Now he's in his fully charged state, just as he should have been moments before he landed on NK.. maybe even just a bit more. Ok... so he dives into the water, blastin with his heat vision and using his super strength which should be depleting his energy. As he's lifting the island, he is now in direct contact with the island once more. Not only that, there's spires of kryptonite now piercing thru the island and heading straight for him. Let's just assume that we have a timer that now counts down to when the diluted kryptonite starts to affect him which has been established in his previous encounter as "a couple minutes." If it only took a couple minutes for him to start feeling weakened by the "diluted" kryptonite... how many minutes do you think it took for him to lift an entire continent up into space? Even in movie land, I don't believe that it only took superman a couple minutes to lift NK. Space is said to start at 100 kilometers altitude, which is 62 miles and it takes the space shuttle 8-10 minutes. Now compare the speed it takes to do that and the weight of the space shuttle. Can superman lift an entire continent that distance in that amoutn of time? Sure looked pretty slow to me in the movie.

Ok so here's another point that goes back to superman's absorption of sunlight as giving him the sudden power to counter the affects of kryptonite. During this whole time he's able to lift the NK, people are saying it's because he absorbed so much sunlight during his little flight moments before. This doesnt make sense to me either. Now here's where superman's ability to absorb sunlight comes into question. Can he turn it on and off when he wants to or does his body automaticallly absorb it? Because, bare with me, if his body automatically absorbs it then he shouldn't have been affected by the kryptonite when he was in space because guess what's in the background? The Sun! And since he's in space none of that solar energy is blocked by anything.. no atmosphere at all and no filter.. just pure solar energy. He should be inundated with solar energy at this point that his body is absorbing and since according to some, solar energy counteracts the effects of kryptonite he should thus not be affected at all.

There's just too many flaws with this scene

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I didn't like SR because 1) Kate Bosworth couldn't act her way out of a paper bag and 2) When I see a Superman movie I want to see him do more than just catch a plane and catch a car with it's brakes shot. Simple really.

 

[Marx]

I didn't like SR because 1) Kate Bosworth couldn't act her way out of a paper bag and 2) When I see a Superman movie I want to see him do more than just catch a plane and catch a car with it's brakes shot. Simple really.

Overall, I enjoyed the movie. I would like to have seen Superman get into a little more of a fight though.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea i think it's watchable, but with Superman they should be able to do much more.

 

[C. Lee]

As you said, Green K immediately incapacitates Superman creating a severe and certain weakness. Prolonged exposure is fatal.
That's pretty much a baseline, or canon if you will, across all the variations, and creates the flaw in it's use in SR.

Re-read my post that you quoted....I did not say green K immediately incapacitates him....I simply said it weakens him in all media presentations.

 

[C. Lee]

ok here's a question for you, can superman control his absorption of sunlight or is he constantly absorbing it and storing it? Now as far as I understand it his body absorbs as much as it can and stores the rest like a battery. He doesn't have the ability to just turn it on or off nor does he have the ability to increase or decrease how much he absorbs.. he just does. His body doesnt discharge itself all the way before he recharges again. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

I'm not totally sure....but I believe that is the basis of the current storyline in one of the Superman books....he takes in too much solar energy and it threatens his life.

He lands on NK... an island full of kryptonite. Ok let's assume it's diluted as you say. In the couple minutes it took him to talk to luthor it completely weakened him. Now.. let's also take into account the fact that just minutes before he landed on NK he was in the city in full sunlight saving people. During this time his body must have been absorbing sunlight to replenish any that he was using to save people. So... when he landed on NK he was very close to being fully charged. Now within a few minutes his powers are rendered useless and he succumbs to the Kryptonite. So we have that as a baseline for how long this diluted kryptonite takes to affect him. Never mind that it's actually the radiation from kryptonite that affects him and not the physical crystal itself. We have to also remember the fact that during this encounter on NK, none of the kryptonite was actually exposed to him. It was all under the rock.

Actually....when he is knocked to the ground, he then sees that the diluted K is visible on parts of the surface...thus his face and hands are now making physical contact with it.

Now he's in his fully charged state, just as he should have been moments before he landed on NK.. maybe even just a bit more. Ok... so he dives into the water, blastin with his heat vision and using his super strength which should be depleting his energy. As he's lifting the island, he is now in direct contact with the island once more. Not only that, there's spires of kryptonite now piercing thru the island and heading straight for him.

He uses his heat vision to slice off a section of land further down below the K level....so, when he first starts lifting it, the K isn't near to him, but as he is lifting it into space, the K crystals continue to grow down towards him.....and as he makes it to the edge of space, it then breaks through.

if his body automatically absorbs it then he shouldn't have been affected by the kryptonite when he was in space because guess what's in the background? The Sun! And since he's in space none of that solar energy is blocked by anything.. no atmosphere at all and no filter.. just pure solar energy. He should be inundated with solar energy at this point that his body is absorbing and since according to some, solar energy counteracts the effects of kryptonite he should thus not be affected at all.

You're not taking the Island of New Krypton into consideration.....it is between him and the sun....like the moon makes a solar eclipse when it comes between the Earth and the sun, NK was shielding him from the sun's rays.

 

[afan]

Re-read my post that you quoted....I did not say green K immediately incapacitates him....I simply said it weakens him in all media presentations.

My bad, C Lee, if I misinterpreted your use of "weakens".

Just to be clear then, to what degree of weakening influence do you understand Green K to have? Any discussion here needs a baseline to judge inaccuracies in SR.

 

[Wushuboy]

I'm not totally sure....but I believe that is the basis of the current storyline in one of the Superman books....he takes in too much solar energy and it threatens his life.


Actually....when he is knocked to the ground, he then sees that the diluted K is visible on parts of the surface...thus his face and hands are now making physical contact with it.


He uses his heat vision to slice off a section of land further down below the K level....so, when he first starts lifting it, the K isn't near to him, but as he is lifting it into space, the K crystals continue to grow down towards him.....and as he makes it to the edge of space, it then breaks through.


You're not taking the Island of New Krypton into consideration.....it is between him and the sun....like the moon makes a solar eclipse when it comes between the Earth and the sun, NK was shielding him from the sun's rays.

I'm too lazy to do the quote thing so you're just getting one blurb. each paragraph will correspond to a point you made.. hehe

1) Well get back to me on if that's the basis of the current storyline. Even if it is.. that storyline is after superman returns was made so it doesnt have real bearing on this. The information should be from superman returns made and prior since that's what he's based on and the writers had no idea of future storylines.

2) we need to be clear on what diluted K means. Diluted to me means that it's not pure K. So when you mean diluted K do you mean there's no big chunks of it, that it's dispursed throughout the rock or is it that it's not as potent as pure K. A piece of pure gold surrounded by granite is still pure gold. That doesnt mean it's properites are diminished. Or another example would be alcohol. You cut it with water and it is now diluted. Is that what happens with diluted K? that it's cut with something else? The point here was to establish how long it takes him to be affected by this diulted K. the only thing that shields superman from K is lead and I dont think there was much lead protecting him so it doesnt matter if he was in p hysical contact with it or not. That doesnt make a difference.

3) I believe the kryptonite breaks thru before he reaches into space. And he's using two of his powers so his energy should be depleting at a faster rate than when he was just standing on the island doing nothing. And again. There's such a high concentration of kryptonite in the rock that the level to which he "sliced" through would not be enough to shield him nevermind the fact that it's been known that lead is the only substance to shield him. I mean he's lifting a continent full of kryptonite.

4) I think you should watch it again. The light source is the sun in the scene where he lifts the island into space. He lifts it perpendicular to the position of the sun. You can clearly see the sun on his left. And once again.. this sunlight is pure sunlight with no filtering from earth;s atmosphere so it's a potent as he's gonna get. So if sunlight counters the kryptonite, this pure sunlight should charge him up even quicker. So no.. nk was not shielding him at all. You can see his face lighted which means sunlight is reaching him. If not he should have been totally in shadow.

 

[NickyTea]

I'm probably the least traditional or obsessed superman fan ever ... so I had no issues with Supes being able to lift the Kryptonian continent. I was probably to distracted by the fact that he can lift a continent, and I cant.

I'm never really obsessed with the minutia of any particular mythology. As long as the overall themes are human and true, I'll be there. Superman Returns did this for me. In a time when family and heroism don't have the same, simplistic definitions, Supes needed to be made relevant. We are dealing with tough issues, and now, so is he. He is still a beacon of hope and higher moral standing.

In my opinion, Superman is one of the most important modern mythological heroes, and Superman Returns portrayed him perfectly, and for the ages. I may not be able to lift a continent or catch a plane (YET) but I can make a choice to always be "around" for those in my life.

Damn, I want to watch this again now!

 

[stargazer]

I'm probably the least traditional or obsessed superman fan ever ... so I had no issues with Supes being able to lift the Kryptonian continent. I was probably to distracted by the fact that he can lift a continent, and I cant.

I'm never really obsessed with the minutia of any particular mythology. As long as the overall themes are human and true, I'll be there. Superman Returns did this for me. In a time when family and heroism don't have the same, simplistic definitions, Supes needed to be made relevant. We are dealing with tough issues, and now, so is he. He is still a beacon of hope and higher moral standing.

In my opinion, Superman is one of the most important modern mythological heroes, and Superman Returns portrayed him perfectly, and for the ages. I may not be able to lift a continent or catch a plane (YET) but I can make a choice to always be "around" for those in my life.

Damn, I want to watch this again now!

Fantastic post, NickyTea!

And I know exactly what you mean, Superman Returns is EPIC and wonderful, IMO.

 

[C. Lee]

I'm too lazy to do the quote thing so you're just getting one blurb. each paragraph will correspond to a point you made.. hehe

1) Well get back to me on if that's the basis of the current storyline. Even if it is.. that storyline is after superman returns was made so it doesnt have real bearing on this. The information should be from superman returns made and prior since that's what he's based on and the writers had no idea of future storylines.

2) we need to be clear on what diluted K means. Diluted to me means that it's not pure K. So when you mean diluted K do you mean there's no big chunks of it, that it's dispursed throughout the rock or is it that it's not as potent as pure K. A piece of pure gold surrounded by granite is still pure gold. That doesnt mean it's properites are diminished. Or another example would be alcohol. You cut it with water and it is now diluted. Is that what happens with diluted K? that it's cut with something else? The point here was to establish how long it takes him to be affected by this diulted K. the only thing that shields superman from K is lead and I dont think there was much lead protecting him so it doesnt matter if he was in p hysical contact with it or not. That doesnt make a difference.

3) I believe the kryptonite breaks thru before he reaches into space. And he's using two of his powers so his energy should be depleting at a faster rate than when he was just standing on the island doing nothing. And again. There's such a high concentration of kryptonite in the rock that the level to which he "sliced" through would not be enough to shield him nevermind the fact that it's been known that lead is the only substance to shield him. I mean he's lifting a continent full of kryptonite.

4) I think you should watch it again. The light source is the sun in the scene where he lifts the island into space. He lifts it perpendicular to the position of the sun. You can clearly see the sun on his left. And once again.. this sunlight is pure sunlight with no filtering from earth;s atmosphere so it's a potent as he's gonna get. So if sunlight counters the kryptonite, this pure sunlight should charge him up even quicker. So no.. nk was not shielding him at all. You can see his face lighted which means sunlight is reaching him. If not he should have been totally in shadow.

1) Due to a variety of situations, I haven't been able to pick up a comic in about 6 months....so maybe someone else can verify if the too much solar energy is a current storyline or not. Whether or not that comic is old or new doesn't matter....your original question asked...can superman control his absorption of sunlight or is he constantly absorbing it and storing it?...you made no mention of if the information needed to be pre or post the making of SR.

2) My talk of "diluted K" refers to it being less potent that regular green K because it's an amalgam of the green K shard and an infusion with Earth minerals.

3) & 4) As you say....I may need to see it again to get the specifics....but the generallity still stands....Superman is lifting a large object that has a lot of weakened (diluted) green K...so he weakens slower.

 

[X Knight]

In my opinion, Superman is one of the most important modern mythological heroes, and Superman Returns portrayed him perfectly, and for the ages. I may not be able to lift a continent or catch a plane (YET) but I can make a choice to always be "around" for those in my life.

NickyTea, I certianly respect your views and your enjoyment of Superman Returns.

However, I found the Superman in SR to be totally OPPOSITE of your comment that I bolded.

This Superman made the choice to NOT be around those in his life for 5+ years. Contrary to what Superman says at the end, he was NOT "always around."

And that is what takes away my enjoyment of the film. The Superman in SR just doesn't feel like Superman to me, AT ALL ( with the single possible exception of the whole "Saying Goodbye to Lois/Sun Charging/Lifting NK" sequence ).

Especially as I've been watching TDK on blue-ray ( my 1st blue-ray movie! ). Each time I watch TDK, I get goosebumps.....the more I like the film....and the less I like SR. Indeed, this past year, watching great CB movies like Iron Man and Incredible Hulk have made me even more dissappointed in SR.

As a Batman fan, TDK just "did it" for me.

As a Superman fan also, SR failed to "do it" for me........

hopefully, someday, we will get a Superman movie that can rival what TDK achieved........hopefully......someday......

 

[Lighthouse]

I'll post what I posted at the Planet.

I actually watched Superman Returns again recently, and while I didn't like it anymore than before, the experience did crystallize why I didn't like it. In the end, for me anyway, it wasn't a movie all about Superman.

I think when someone is starting, reintroducing, or rebooting a franchise about a character, you need to make that character the main focus of the film. In movies like Iron Man, Spider-Man, and especially Batman Begins, the main character is the star of the film, and thoroughly follows his story in the movie. In Batman Begins, the story is completely focused on Batman, and characters like Lucious Fox, Alfred and Sergeant Gordon were all there, but the story was never really focused on them.

While watching Superman Returns, I realized that roughly half the movie focused on Lois Lane, and that Brandon almost felt like a supporting cast member. Sure we had some focus on Lex too, but between that and Lois, we had very little time for Superman himself. As a movie that was supposed to launch a new franchise, Singer should have completely focused on Brandon Routh, with some minor support from the other cast members. Let the audience grow into this new Superman. The key to identifying with the hero doesn't mean he has to be completely relatable like Spider-Man, but you do need to feel like you've gone on the same journey he has. That's why Superman: The Movie was so effective. Like many have pointed out, there wasn't much more action in Superman: The Movie than there was with Superman Returns, but in Superman: The Movie, you went on the journey almost completely with Superman. But since Superman Returns decided to focus on a badly cast Lois, I never got the chance to connect with the new guy playing Superman. Ensemble films should be saved for the sequels, like Nolan did so effectively with The Dark Knight, where Batman's screen time is about equal to everyone else.

That frankly, is why I think Superman Returns is a failure, and why I have no desire to see a second one, because I get the feeling its going to focus even less on Superman than SR did, and because Singer thinks he already "established" the characters the first time. Well Bryan, you forgot to focus on the one that really mattered.

 

[X Knight]

I'll post what I posted at the Planet.

I actually watched Superman Returns again recently, and while I didn't like it anymore than before, the experience did crystallize why I didn't like it. In the end, for me anyway, it wasn't a movie all about Superman.

I think when someone is starting, reintroducing, or rebooting a franchise about a character, you need to make that character the main focus of the film. In movies like Iron Man, Spider-Man, and especially Batman Begins, the main character is the star of the film, and thoroughly follows his story in the movie. In Batman Begins, the story is completely focused on Batman, and characters like Lucious Fox, Alfred and Sergeant Gordon were all there, but the story was never really focused on them.

While watching Superman Returns, I realized that roughly half the movie focused on Lois Lane, and that Brandon almost felt like a supporting cast member. Sure we had some focus on Lex too, but between that and Lois, we had very little time for Superman himself. As a movie that was supposed to launch a new franchise, Singer should have completely focused on Brandon Routh, with some minor support from the other cast members. Let the audience grow into this new Superman. The key to identifying with the hero doesn't mean he has to be completely relatable like Spider-Man, but you do need to feel like you've gone on the same journey he has. That's why Superman: The Movie was so effective. Like many have pointed out, there wasn't much more action in Superman: The Movie than there was with Superman Returns, but in Superman: The Movie, you went on the journey almost completely with Superman. But since Superman Returns decided to focus on a badly cast Lois, I never got the chance to connect with the new guy playing Superman. Ensemble films should be saved for the sequels, like Nolan did so effectively with The Dark Knight, where Batman's screen time is about equal to everyone else.

That frankly, is why I think Superman Returns is a failure, and why I have no desire to see a second one, because I get the feeling its going to focus even less on Superman than SR did, and because Singer thinks he already "established" the characters the first time. Well Bryan, you forgot to focus on the one that really mattered.

BINGO!!

 

[Wushuboy]

edit

 

[Wushuboy]

1) Due to a variety of situations, I haven't been able to pick up a comic in about 6 months....so maybe someone else can verify if the too much solar energy is a current storyline or not. Whether or not that comic is old or new doesn't matter....your original question asked...can superman control his absorption of sunlight or is he constantly absorbing it and storing it?...you made no mention of if the information needed to be pre or post the making of SR.

2) My talk of "diluted K" refers to it being less potent that regular green K because it's an amalgam of the green K shard and an infusion with Earth minerals.

3) & 4) As you say....I may need to see it again to get the specifics....but the generallity still stands....Superman is lifting a large object that has a lot of weakened (diluted) green K...so he weakens slower.

1) If he can control the amount of sunlight he can absorb why wouldnt he want to absorb as much as he can while still in space since sunlight counters the effects of kryptonite. I sure would.

2), 3), &4) the "generality" doesn't really stand if sunlight counters the effects of diluted kryptonite since in space he is flooded with direct sunlight. Also, the movie is not consistent with just how much slower this "diluted" K weakens him. When he lands on NK, it only takes a couple minutes. Yet when he's lifting it it takes so much longer.

I'll hazard a guess that the writers never even thought of the specifics. They just thought the imagery was cool. I'd really like to see some quotes from singer and the writers to know what they were thinking and if really it is diluted K otherwise it doesnt really matter what anyone says since that's not what the writers intended.

 

[StylishHokie21]

I'll post what I posted at the Planet.

I actually watched Superman Returns again recently, and while I didn't like it anymore than before, the experience did crystallize why I didn't like it. In the end, for me anyway, it wasn't a movie all about Superman.

I think when someone is starting, reintroducing, or rebooting a franchise about a character, you need to make that character the main focus of the film. In movies like Iron Man, Spider-Man, and especially Batman Begins, the main character is the star of the film, and thoroughly follows his story in the movie. In Batman Begins, the story is completely focused on Batman, and characters like Lucious Fox, Alfred and Sergeant Gordon were all there, but the story was never really focused on them.

While watching Superman Returns, I realized that roughly half the movie focused on Lois Lane, and that Brandon almost felt like a supporting cast member. Sure we had some focus on Lex too, but between that and Lois, we had very little time for Superman himself. As a movie that was supposed to launch a new franchise, Singer should have completely focused on Brandon Routh, with some minor support from the other cast members. Let the audience grow into this new Superman. The key to identifying with the hero doesn't mean he has to be completely relatable like Spider-Man, but you do need to feel like you've gone on the same journey he has. That's why Superman: The Movie was so effective. Like many have pointed out, there wasn't much more action in Superman: The Movie than there was with Superman Returns, but in Superman: The Movie, you went on the journey almost completely with Superman. But since Superman Returns decided to focus on a badly cast Lois, I never got the chance to connect with the new guy playing Superman. Ensemble films should be saved for the sequels, like Nolan did so effectively with The Dark Knight, where Batman's screen time is about equal to everyone else.

That frankly, is why I think Superman Returns is a failure, and why I have no desire to see a second one, because I get the feeling its going to focus even less on Superman than SR did, and because Singer thinks he already "established" the characters the first time. Well Bryan, you forgot to focus on the one that really mattered.

Great review! That sums up how I feel pretty much.

 

[El Payaso]

I'll post what I posted at the Planet.

I actually watched Superman Returns again recently, and while I didn't like it anymore than before, the experience did crystallize why I didn't like it. In the end, for me anyway, it wasn't a movie all about Superman.

I think when someone is starting, reintroducing, or rebooting a franchise about a character, you need to make that character the main focus of the film. In movies like Iron Man, Spider-Man, and especially Batman Begins, the main character is the star of the film, and thoroughly follows his story in the movie. In Batman Begins, the story is completely focused on Batman, and characters like Lucious Fox, Alfred and Sergeant Gordon were all there, but the story was never really focused on them.

SR wasn't a reboot or a "starting movie" as Spiderman, Iron Man or especially Batman Begins.

It is a sequel and the third step after STM and SII, where the characters and conflicts have been properly established. That's why the movie doesn't explain how the Superman-Lois romance started, developed and ended up being like what is in SR.

While watching Superman Returns, I realized that roughly half the movie focused on Lois Lane, and that Brandon almost felt like a supporting cast member. Sure we had some focus on Lex too, but between that and Lois, we had very little time for Superman himself. As a movie that was supposed to launch a new franchise, Singer should have completely focused on Brandon Routh, with some minor support from the other cast members. Let the audience grow into this new Superman. The key to identifying with the hero doesn't mean he has to be completely relatable like Spider-Man, but you do need to feel like you've gone on the same journey he has. That's why Superman: The Movie was so effective. Like many have pointed out, there wasn't much more action in Superman: The Movie than there was with Superman Returns, but in Superman: The Movie, you went on the journey almost completely with Superman. But since Superman Returns decided to focus on a badly cast Lois, I never got the chance to connect with the new guy playing Superman. Ensemble films should be saved for the sequels, like Nolan did so effectively with The Dark Knight, where Batman's screen time is about equal to everyone else.

And SR is exactly that; a sequel. And that's exactly why it operates like TDK in terms of how the screentime is divided between the characters.

That frankly, is why I think Superman Returns is a failure, and why I have no desire to see a second one, because I get the feeling its going to focus even less on Superman than SR did, and because Singer thinks he already "established" the characters the first time. Well Bryan, you forgot to focus on the one that really mattered.

How can you get a feeling of a movie that is not being made?

I think Singer explained it too well when he said this was a sequel to STM and SII. As such he considered those movies as the "character establishers" ones. And that's why he didn't establish characters as if it is the first time we're seeing them.


Now, we can start discussing if it was a smart move to make a sequel of STM and SII instead of starting all over again. Ok, I'll give you that.

For the G.A. and younger people, it might have been confusing. Yes, people NEED to see STM and SII first in order to get many things from SR. But since I am not a "younger person" or someone who doesn't know/remember STM and SII, I couldn't be less troubled because of those considerations. Just as in TDK, I couldn't be less frustrated about Superman not having the more screentime/focus.

 

[Lighthouse]

SR wasn't a reboot or a "starting movie" as Spiderman, Iron Man or especially Batman Begins.

It is a sequel and the third step after STM and SII, where the characters and conflicts have been properly established. That's why the movie doesn't explain how the Superman-Lois romance started, developed and ended up being like what is in SR.



And SR is exactly that; a sequel. And that's exactly why it operates like TDK in terms of how the screentime is divided between the characters.



How can you get a feeling of a movie that is not being made?

I think Singer explained it too well when he said this was a sequel to STM and SII. As such he considered those movies as the "character establishers" ones. And that's why he didn't establish characters as if it is the first time we're seeing them.


Now, we can start discussing if it was a smart move to make a sequel of STM and SII instead of starting all over again. Ok, I'll give you that.

For the G.A. and younger people, it might have been confusing. Yes, people NEED to see STM and SII first in order to get many things from SR. But since I am not a "younger person" or someone who doesn't know/remember STM and SII, I couldn't be less troubled because of those considerations. Just as in TDK, I couldn't be less frustrated about Superman not having the more screentime/focus.

I'm sorry but I don't buy it as a sequel. It was supposed to be a new beginning and reintroduction for a new generation. If it was a sequel as you say, then I think Singer made a huge error in judgment thinking that everything that was done in those two movies could transfer directly to Superman Returns. Routh is not Reeve, Bosworth is not Kidder. Its not the same Metropolis, its not the same time period. I think Singer needed to let the new audience grow with the Superman, and go on the same journey as he did, and Superman Returns failed in that aspect for me. I could probably have forgiven every other problem in the movie, if I had felt any connection to the new Superman.

 

[El Payaso]

I'm sorry but I don't buy it as a sequel.

It's not a matter of buying. It IS a sequel, it was explained so and the movie features enough references to STM and SII to even think of denying it.

You don't like it to be a sequel? Ok.

It was supposed to be a new beginning and reintroduction for a new generation.

Reintroduction, yes. Any new Superman movie after 20 years or so would be a reintroduction. That's not even a choice.

If it was a sequel as you say, then I think Singer made a huge error in judgment thinking that everything that was done in those two movies could transfer directly to Superman Returns.

That's why I said "Now, we can start discussing if it was a smart move to make a sequel of STM and SII instead of starting all over again. Ok, I'll give you that."

Routh is not Reeve, Bosworth is not Kidder. Its not the same Metropolis, its not the same time period.

Kilmer is not Keaton, Clooney is not Kilmer, Maggie Gylenhaal is not Katie Holmes. It has happened before and they're still sequels.

Same with the cities: BR Gotham is not exactly B89 Gotham. Even TDK Gotham is not exactly BB Gotham.

And about the time period, it is supposed to be slightly timeless. But every movie adapts the environment to its own time period to some extent.

I think Singer needed to let the new audience grow with the Superman, and go on the same journey as he did, and Superman Returns failed in that aspect for me.

That's something I already gave you in my quote above.

You need to see STM and SII first, take it or leave it.

I could probably have forgiven every other problem in the movie, if I had felt any connection to the new Superman.

Same happened to me. I could relate though. That's why I could forgot about the Donner movies' quotes and some other aspects from SR I felt were weak.

Doesn't have to be the same for everybody. But SR has to be understood as a sequel to STM and SII. Nobody has to like it, just to accept that that is the premise.