Superman Returns Why Don't Some Superman Fans Like Superman Returns?

[mego joe]

It is a possibility that Superman didnt know he whether he could reproduce with a human or not though.

But would he put Lois at risk or risk conceiving a child he wasn't ready to commit himself to? It's about putting Lois and potential child ahead of one's own desire to have sex.

 

[mego joe]

First of all, if its a vague sequel as you've said before, how does anyone whose never seen the first two connect with Superman in this film? If it was a continuation of a vague history, you shouldn't have to have seen the first two.

And I saw very little character development of Superman. The only thing I saw him sad about was Lois. His return to Earth and ramifications is barely explored at all. Where does it every show the he suffers the consequences of leaving Earth except for his relationship with Lois, which of course is going to happen if you don't tell her your going to leave. The idea that he is partially responsible for Lex being a free man, his relationship with Lex, never explored. The whole "Superman returning to a world thats moved on without him"? Never happened. Routh barely gets any of his own moments in the movie, except for actions scenes and the rooftop scene with Lois. Thats it. I think its a particullary shallow movie.

I agree with you on this one Lighthouse, I don't see any character change at all. He save a plane on his day back, he saves Lois and family and the rest of MEtropolis at the end. How has he changed?

The real problems though were that there was no deep resolution to the conflict between SUperman and Lois, or Lois and Richard.

 

[mego joe]

I dont see how it is, no matter what the similarities, they are two different species with different DNA. Humans will never be invulnerable, or have superpowers, just from being near a yellow sun, Kryptonians will. Appearance is nothing.

Plus, even in the comics, Superman has been known to question whether he can re-produce.

But he acknowledges the possibility and realizes the risk to Lois and the upheaval their lifestyle would bring on a child.

 

[mego joe]

I have to agree with this. I don't want to see Supes not affected by his surroundings or never change in some way......but to me, he doesn't have to have a lot of life changing moments. Those occured while he was growing up in Smallville.

He doesn't have to change, but it needs to show the DEPTH and content of his character, and it has to be right and indicative of who SUperman is.

One exception would be exploring how his outlook/ actions changed after marrying Lois, if they were to ever tackle that story in a comic.

 

[mego joe]

I have to agree with this. I don't want to see Supes not affected by his surroundings or never change in some way......but to me, he doesn't have to have a lot of life changing moments. Those occured while he was growing up in Smallville.

He doesn't have to change, but it needs to show the DEPTH and content of his character, and it has to be right and indicative of who SUperman is.

One exception would be exploring how his outlook/ actions changed after marrying Lois, if they were to ever tackle that story in a movie.

 

[Qwerty©]

Was it necessary to make so many posts?

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

SO the context is quite different, he is actually leaving to go try and save Lois, his wife instead of ditching her?

Superman's motivation is these two stories, SR and "For Tomorrow" is quite different in respect to his actions towards Lois.

IMO they are quite similar, its just in SR he is going to see if Krypton is still there or if he can help any potential survivors. In 'For Tomorrow' he leaves loved one's in the dark as well about his actions, its just that some manage to find out of their own accord.

SO essentially, the other heroes take umbrage against the chance that he might make it worse rather than make it better? Is that correct?

Yes, WW in particular thinks he will make it worse and tries to stop him in numerous ways.

I see the context and his actions to be quite different from what happens in the backstory to SR.

As i say above, his motivations are basically the same, in SR he goes to Krypton to help any potential survivors or see if it is still there, or even if his parents are still alive and in need of help, in 'For Tomorrow' he goes to find Lois and the other 1 million people that dissappeared during 'The Vanishing.' His motivation in both scenarios is to find loved one's and to try and help people that my be in need.

 

[Super Kal]

What did he do to cause all the people to vanish?

Spoiler

he created a device to where he could send the people he loved to a "safe place"... instead, something went wrong, and hundreds of people vanished, and it sent them all to the phantom zone. Zod was in the phantom Zone.

 

[Dr. Fate]

Was it necessary to make so many posts?

Yes.

 

[El Payaso]

I know that this topic had it's own thread a while ago, but I don't see Reeves's SUperman leaving Lois high and dry like the one in SR did. I know opinions on this differ, but I don't see that in the character as represented in the Donner films.

That's exactly why I say we know more about the characters. 'More,' as in 'never seen before.'

 

[C. Lee]

Was it necessary to make so many posts?

Yep.

 

[C. Lee]

But considering the fact that Superman looks just like a human, it would lead one to think it would be possible. Superman looks more like a human than two breeds of dogs look alike. THe real question is would SUperman risk it without being fully committed to Lois, and then there's the whole Larry Niven question. I think SUperman would investigate it further before risking harming Lois or risk conceiving a child he wasn't ready to care for. I think he would put Lois's safety and a possible child ahead of his own desire for sex.

Two breeds of dogs may look different on the outside....but on the inside they are more like than their outward appearance.

We don't really know what Superman's insides look like. We know his outer shell (which looks human) is invulnerable....but are his bones also denser, his lungs and heart bigger, smaller, different shape? Does he have organs that humans don't? Since solar power gives him strength and energy....does he really need to consume food....so does he actually have a stomach, intestines, kidneys....?

The Larry Niven question should have been answered sometime in his teenage years....if Johnathan didn't have to regularily repair Clark's ceiling....then Lois should be OK.

Sometimes "sex" is more about bonding and sharing an emotional connection that just getting the deed done.

 

[C. Lee]

He doesn't have to change, but it needs to show the DEPTH and content of his character, and it has to be right and indicative of who SUperman is.

One exception would be exploring how his outlook/ actions changed after marrying Lois, if they were to ever tackle that story in a comic.

That's why I said he needs to show that he is affected by the things around him....but this can be acomplished without having an emotional meltdown.

 

[Agent 194]

Agreed. He's super, not manic depressive.

 

[mego joe]

Was it necessary to make so many posts?

I responded to separate posts, nor real savy witht he multiple quote from different threads function.

So, yes, it was.

 

[mego joe]

IMO they are quite similar, its just in SR he is going to see if Krypton is still there or if he can help any potential survivors. In 'For Tomorrow' he leaves loved one's in the dark as well about his actions, its just that some manage to find out of their own accord.

Perhaps I should have been more clear. Not his motivation for helping others, but his motivation in his actions toward Lois, the woman he loves.

In "For Tomorrow" he is going to save Lois and a million other people he feels he has a chance of saving. He is going to save the woman he loves, the most important person in his life, no one else is as important to him as she is.

In SR, he ditches Lois without a word. THe woman who is the most important person in his life does not rate a goodbye. Can she really be that important? Can he really love her and have her best interests at heart?

These situations seem similar in one respect, but COMPLETELY different in reference to Lois.

Yes, WW in particular thinks he will make it worse and tries to stop him in numerous ways.

She and Kal haven't had the best relationship over the past few years have they?

As i say above, his motivations are basically the same, in SR he goes to Krypton to help any potential survivors or see if it is still there, or even if his parents are still alive and in need of help, in 'For Tomorrow' he goes to find Lois and the other 1 million people that dissappeared during 'The Vanishing.' His motivation in both scenarios is to find loved one's and to try and help people that my be in need.

But in "For Tomorrow" he's not turning his back on the woman he loves, the most important person in his life, the woman he's having a sexual relationship with.

That makes all the difference in the world. In "FOr Tomorrow" it wouldn't matter if it was a million people or jus Lois, he would still go to try and save Lois, that's what love is about, you care for them more than anyone else. Clearly, in SR, Superma is not caring for Lois more than anyone else, otherwise he would have said goodbye and explained what he was doing.

 

[mego joe]

Spoiler

he created a device to where he could send the people he loved to a "safe place"... instead, something went wrong, and hundreds of people vanished, and it sent them all to the phantom zone. Zod was in the phantom Zone.

THat's interesting! So he clearly considers it his fault they all disappeared and he's trying to fix his mistake becasue he's taking RESPONSIBILITY for his actions.

 

[mego joe]

That's exactly why I say we know more about the characters. 'More,' as in 'never seen before.'

'MOre' as in how Superman is not supposed to act. 'Never Seen before' as in SUpemran really isn't that nice guy he appears to be, it's all an act for the public.

Oh, I didn't know that was Superman. Apparently, I wasn't aware that it was OK to change the nature of SUperman's character for a movie and lose the basic essence of who he is. OOPS!

 

[mego joe]

Two breeds of dogs may look different on the outside....but on the inside they are more like than their outward appearance.

We don't really know what Superman's insides look like. We know his outer shell (which looks human) is invulnerable....but are his bones also denser, his lungs and heart bigger, smaller, different shape? Does he have organs that humans don't? Since solar power gives him strength and energy....does he really need to consume food....so does he actually have a stomach, intestines, kidneys....?

Well it certainly is presented that way in Superman: The Movie in his interview with Lois.

The Larry Niven question should have been answered sometime in his teenage years....if Johnathan didn't have to regularily repair Clark's ceiling....then Lois should be OK.

That could have been a funny flashback scene to him growing up.

I feel like since it's not addressed at all, we shouldn't even be considering it. I don't think there's a hidden motivation in the movie that we have to invent for what Superman thought his chances of impregnating Lois would be.

Sometimes "sex" is more about bonding and sharing an emotional connection that just getting the deed done.

I would certainly hope it's that way nearly all the time. Especially, for SUperman and Lois. But that's not the impression I got from the action in the movie. If SUperman really loves Lois and cares about her he's going to say goodbye and be honest with her. He didn't so it casts all sorts of doubt and confusion as to the nature of their relationship.

 

[mego joe]

Agreed. He's super, not manic depressive.

Double agreed. Nor is he an emotional weakling. He has a strong will and strong sense of purpose. He's going to be affected, but not crippled by emotional situations.

 

[Super Kal]

THat's interesting! So he clearly considers it his fault they all disappeared and he's trying to fix his mistake becasue he's taking RESPONSIBILITY for his actions.

 

[El Payaso]

'MOre' as in how Superman is not supposed to act.

As in he's not a priest or a perfect guy? No he isn't.

'Never Seen before' as in SUpemran really isn't that nice guy he appears to be, it's all an act for the public.

He was very nice both in public and with Lois, so I ignore what are you talking about. Maybe the way he was with Luthor?

Oh, I didn't know that was Superman.

I'm glad you know now.

Apparently, I wasn't aware that it was OK to change the nature of SUperman's character for a movie and lose the basic essence of who he is. OOPS!

Maybe you didn't know the essence shouldn't be one-dimensional.

 

[El Payaso]

THat's interesting! So he clearly considers it his fault they all disappeared and he's trying to fix his mistake becasue he's taking RESPONSIBILITY for his actions.

Like in SR! What a coincidence!

 

[mego joe]

As in he's not a priest or a perfect guy? No he isn't.

But he is supposed to be a genuinely kind, caring, altruistic, forthright, self-sacrificing mature man with a strong sense of will and strong morals and good values.

What sUperman does to Lois, by ditching and leaving her after being in a sexual relationship with her is the antithesis of the above description of Superman. It does't require him to be perfect. It just doesn't make sense that he would treat the woman he loves that way, period.

He was very nice both in public and with Lois, so I ignore what are you talking about. Maybe the way he was with Luthor?

You are obvioulsy oblivious to the proper way to treat the woman you love when you are involved in a sexual relationship. SUperman's actions toward Lois are indefensible. It was wrong, period.

I'm glad you know now.

Of all people, I was sure you would be savy enought to catch the sarcasm. Apparently, you need to go back and read some more SUperman comics, b/c that was not Superman. Just b/c SInger said it was doesn't make it so.

Maybe you didn't know the essence shouldn't be one-dimensional.

THe essense is not contradictory either.

I'm not asking for one-dimensional, I'm asking for depth as in 3 dimensional. Give us why's and motivation to give us that depth of character. But that is not included in the film. Just simply giving us contradictory actio w/o plausible and believable motivation is just as shallow as not explaining why he is so good a person and has the values he does.

Maybe you didn't know that simple contradiction is not equivalent to quality charcterization or 3-dimentionality.

 

[mego joe]

Like in SR! What a coincidence!

OOO! NOt like in SR.

In SR he abandons his responsiblity to Lois when he leaves her high and dry w/o saying goodbye and showing her he cares enough about her to be honest with her.

In "For Tomorrow" when he actively tries to fix the problem by owning it.

In SR, he 'disowns' his responsiblity and Lois when he leaves in the manner he left.

These situations are completely different in terms of responsibility and SUperman's attitude toward Lois.