Superman Returns Why Don't Some Superman Fans Like Superman Returns?

[Angeloz]

People lie. Did she want to ruin her relationship with Richard and her family?

Did she want to risk people knowing she had supes' son?

Did she even know for sure it was his? If Richard believes her, maybe she believes too!

What he said.

Also we don't know if Richard knows he isn't the biological father. Though he is his Dad.

Angeloz

 

[LexCorp]

What he said.

Also we don't know if Richard knows he isn't the biological father. Though he is his Dad.

Angeloz

Richard finds out in SMOS and but dies..from a sudden...erm...whatever

 

[Angeloz]

Richard finds out in SMOS and but dies..from a sudden...erm...whatever

Feather boa attack. You've gotta beware those dangerous feathers.

Angeloz

 

[LexCorp]

Feather boa attack. You've gotta beware those dangerous feathers.

Angeloz

Phoenix attack...wait wrong movie.

 

[dr collossus]

What he said.

Also we don't know if Richard knows he isn't the biological father. Though he is his Dad.

Angeloz

I agree. In fact, Richard was everything Superman should have been in this film, not just parent to his son. He embodied the personality and character of Superman in this movie far more than Routh did.

 

[Angeloz]

Including loving horror films?

Angeloz

 

[El Payaso]

You see I hold by that too. However I do think he should have waited a few months before he left to see if Lois was pregnant...

For that matter, he could have used his X Rays vision. Problem is none of them thought about pregnancy.

He absented himself from Lois emotionally. ANd the only reason Lois didn't know SUperman was Jason's father was b/c she was acting ****ty.

And if he said good-bye and went away, Lois still has the kid and Superman is still absentee, not knowing he's a father and Lois not knowing if he's ever coming back all the same.

Things would have been different, yes. But Superman's still an absentee father.

But leaving Lois w/o saying goodbye is immature and irresponsible. It's not the action itself, but how it is done.

It's done having a quite regretful Superman. But still he feels he had to do it that way.

It was not the intention of the filmmakers for turning back time, quitting his mission or amnesia kissing Lois to be irresponsible in the context of those films. It is YOUR opion, which while shared by some was not how those events were intended.

It was not the intention of the filmmakers for having Superman as an absentee father, using his X Ray vision on Lois' house or noty saying good-bye to be irresponsible in the context of this film. It is YOUR opion, which while shared by some was not how those events were intended.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I agree with this interpretation, but it bugged me. It bugged me a LOT! Superman isn't like Spider-Man or Batman. He doesn't turn those instincts on and off because he doesn't want to be Superman. Superman is who he IS - not just what he can do. (Oh, how I hated that line from L&C.)

I'll let an expert sum it up...

"The reason he puts on the suit and goes out and actually uses his powers to make the world a better place, is because it's the only way that he knows how to connect with humanity. That's his connection. We all need to feel as though we're a part of something, and there's no time we feel more like we're a part of something than we're doing what we do best, and when we're letting our light shine...

"Superman has, since his creation, been a shining example to readers everywhere of the virtue of selfless heroism - but he has accomplished this by acting in his own self-interest. Yes, Superman aids those in peril because he senses a higher moral obligation, and yes, he does it because his natural instincts and his Midwestern upbringing drive him towards acts of morality - but along with that genuine altruism is a healthy amount of self-awareness and a surprisingly enviable ability on his part to balance his own internal needs with the needs of others in a way that most benefits everyone. In helping others, Superman helps himself. In helping himself, he helps others. When he comes to the aid of other people, he is exercising his distinctive powers and fulfilling his authentic destiny. That, of course, benefits him. When he embraces his history and nature and launches out in the one set of activities that will most fulfill and satisfy him, he is helping others. There is no exclusive, blanket choice to be made between the needs of the individual and the needs of the larger community. There is no contradiction here between self and society. But it's a bit paradoxical in a very inspirational way. Superman properly fulfills his own nature, and his destiny, and the result is that many others are better off as well."
- Marc Waid​

But he has never been in the situation before in any other medium that he in at this point, he has just come back from a mission that obviously effected him, and comes back to find Lois hates his guts. Plus, after seeing the article, he doesnt know how public will react to his return.

I dont blame him for not wanting to return as Superman at that point, but the important thing is, he does, and he saves thousands of lives.

He can't have doubts at all? I'll point out he had read Lois's article "Why The World Didn't Need Superman". Not to mention he'd just came back from a "graveyard". So he may have felt doubts about himself and if the human race wanted him back. But when he did come back most reacted happily to him and he liked it (being back as Superman). It gave him joy and probably some satisfaction if that's the right word.

Angeloz

Exactly, well said Angeloz.

 

[mego joe]

Yeah but you can flip that...

It was not the intention of the filmmakers having superman leaving, to be irresponsible in the context of the film. It is YOUR opion, which while shared by some was not how those events were intended

It's pretty clear that the intentions of the filmmakers of SR were to show a Superman who made some serious mistakes and did the wrong things and that he has to deal with the consequences upon his return.

The only thing I see that could be flipped is the lack of seriousness in which Jason's paternity is handled.

 

[mego joe]

People lie. Did she want to ruin her relationship with Richard and her family?

Did she want to risk people knowing she had supes' son?

Did she even know for sure it was his? If Richard believes her, maybe she believes too!

Which is why it feels like a cheap soap opera and not a Superman story.

 

[mego joe]

I agree. In fact, Richard was everything Superman should have been in this film, not just parent to his son. He embodied the personality and character of Superman in this movie far more than Routh did.

Ditto.

 

[mego joe]

And if he said good-bye and went away, Lois still has the kid and Superman is still absentee, not knowing he's a father and Lois not knowing if he's ever coming back all the same.

Things would have been different, yes. But Superman's still an absentee father.

But the key is that he's not emotionally absent from Lois and his son's life. If he says goodbye, he is still emotionally 'with' Lois and the fruits of their relationship. It's a huge difference than having a chicken Superman run away from his obligations to Lois.

It's done having a quite regretful Superman. But still he feels he had to do it that way.

Regretful? He just seems pretty oblivious to the seriousness of his actions. Plus, he did it KNOWING it was wrong in the first place and just wasn't man enough to do the responsible thing.

It was not the intention of the filmmakers for having Superman as an absentee father, using his X Ray vision on Lois' house or noty saying good-bye to be irresponsible in the context of this film. It is YOUR opion, which while shared by some was not how those events were intended.

Once again you have simply regurgetated what I've said from the opposite point of view, but if what you say is 'true' then everything folks who like SR claim about it is wrong.
1. a 'human' Superman
2. a Superman who makes mistakes
3. a Superman who doesn't know how to deal with his situation

 

[mego joe]

But he has never been in the situation before in any other medium that he in at this point, he has just come back from a mission that obviously effected him, and comes back to find Lois hates his guts. Plus, after seeing the article, he doesnt know how public will react to his return.

I dont blame him for not wanting to return as Superman at that point, but the important thing is, he does, and he saves thousands of lives.



Exactly, well said Angeloz.

WHile I understand what you are getting at 'Jamon, I think the biggest problem was just poor execution of this theme in the film. It's just not developed enough at the beginning to get the 'oh, he DOES want to be SUperman now.'

 

[buggs0268]

Because the SR is going to be a part of the Misc. Superman Films before JLA and anything after that instead of a series of movies.

 

[Angeloz]

Which is why it feels like a cheap soap opera and not a Superman story.

Cheap? At $200 million?

Angeloz

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

WHile I understand what you are getting at 'Jamon, I think the biggest problem was just poor execution of this theme in the film. It's just not developed enough at the beginning to get the 'oh, he DOES want to be SUperman now.'

I thought it was presented well actually, and was pretty obvious to spot also, he only doesnt want to become Superman again because he saw Lois' article and wonders if the rest of the world feel the same way.

If Bryan Singer releases his full cut of the movie we may get to see more of what he intended.

 

[El Payaso]

But the key is that he's not emotionally absent from Lois and his son's life. If he says goodbye, he is still emotionally 'with' Lois and the fruits of their relationship. It's a huge difference than having a chicken Superman run away from his obligations to Lois.

He was not emotionally absent from Lois in SR. He was in love the whole time. But had greater duties that he put first than her.

And in any case he wouldn't have known about Lois' pregnancy untill he's midway to Krypton - like Lois did - so it's absent from his son in any case.

Regretful? He just seems pretty oblivious to the seriousness of his actions. Plus, he did it KNOWING it was wrong in the first place and just wasn't man enough to do the responsible thing.

Yeah, all the same he quit his mission in SII knowing it was wrong, he reversed time knowing it was wrong.

But no, as soon as he came back he tried as Superman and Clark to explain Lois what happened.

Oblivious according to Cambrige is "not aware of something, especially what is happening around you," which is clearly not the case. He was quite aware and worried about Lois and what he did to her.

Once again you have simply regurgetated what I've said from the opposite point of view,

Yes, if for apologizing directors and care only for his intentions, not his results or implicancies of the actions of the characters they're directing, what you say can be happily used both ways.

but if what you say is 'true' then everything folks who like SR claim about it is wrong.
1. a 'human' Superman
2. a Superman who makes mistakes
3. a Superman who doesn't know how to deal with his situation

Firstly, what people who like (or dislike) SR say or think is nothing I have the duty to defend or support.

Secondly, I'm judging this movie, as any other, for the things I saw on screen. If for what directors meant or wanted, every movie is a 5/5.

Superman was more human, made mistakes and didn't know how to deal with Lois at certain point no matter what Singer did or thought. All the same I see the moral (immoral) and (un)ethical implicancies of an amnesia kiss without "being man enough" to tell Lois about it despite of what Doner or Lester intended or wanted us to think about it.

 

[mego joe]

He was not emotionally absent from Lois in SR. He was in love the whole time. But had greater duties that he put first than her.

But she didn't know that, all she knew was that he was gone and her perception was that he abandonned her, that is how he is emotionally absent.

And in any case he wouldn't have known about Lois' pregnancy untill he's midway to Krypton - like Lois did - so it's absent from his son in any case.

But not emotionally. When you leave w/o saying goodbye it is like saying, "I don't care about you." SOunds like emotional abandonment to me.

Yeah, all the same he quit his mission in SII knowing it was wrong, he reversed time knowing it was wrong.

Why was reversing time wrong again? Oh, yes, it's better to be dead than alive, I forgot that. Why was it wrong to quit his mission? Oh yes, he doesn't have freewill and must do whatever Jor-El says.

But no, as soon as he came back he tried as Superman and Clark to explain Lois what happened.

And in turn revealing that his character has been portrayed incorrectly. Weak minded, gutless, spineless selfish jerk. Ah yes, I knew there was a reason I disliked SR.

Oblivious according to Cambrige is "not aware of something, especially what is happening around you," which is clearly not the case. He was quite aware and worried about Lois and what he did to her.

Yes, he's so aware of the serious of his actions that his big send off and profession of commitment to Lois and Jason is "I'm always around." (except when I was gone for the past 5 years)

Yes, if for apologizing directors and care only for his intentions, not his results or implicancies of the actions of the characters they're directing, what you say can be happily used both ways.

How unoriginal.

Firstly, what people who like (or dislike) SR say or think is nothing I have the duty to defend or support.

Secondly, I'm judging this movie, as any other, for the things I saw on screen. If for what directors meant or wanted, every movie is a 5/5.

Superman was more human, made mistakes and didn't know how to deal with Lois at certain point no matter what Singer did or thought. All the same I see the moral (immoral) and (un)ethical implicancies of an amnesia kiss without "being man enough" to tell Lois about it despite of what Doner or Lester intended or wanted us to think about it.

Well you've just got STM and Superman II wrong, El Payaso, it's as simple as that.

Oh wait, let me respond for you. "No you've got it wrong, Mego Joe."

Happy Now?

 

[El Payaso]

But she didn't know that, all she knew was that he was gone and her perception was that he abandonned her, that is how he is emotionally absent.


But not emotionally. When you leave w/o saying goodbye it is like saying, "I don't care about you." SOunds like emotional abandonment to me.

I put in Superman's shiny red boots, having to make a trip that could last 20 years or maybe forever. Even when he could have said good-bye, isn't it letting Lois believe he doesn't care a real way to put all of the burden in himself so Lois is pissed enough to find another man? Which btw, is what she did?

Things went "wrong" when Supes could return relatively soon and in one piece. Then he understood he wasn't really going to be able to adapt himself to his new reality. He's still young enough to be with Lois but Krypton's trip was supposed to have taken her away from him. He's still Earth's defender but after 5 years all alone in a spaceship he doesn't have the same feeling of belonging anymore.

Why was reversing time wrong again?

Ask Jor-El.

I'm not even questioning why is wrong. I'm stating that Superman knew for a fact it was wrong and he heard it from the same mouth that told him his mission was to defend Earth and humankind. The same man Superman has as his mentor and biological father.

And with the devotion Supes has always shown to him (in the movies at least) there's no question why he left everything behind to go to Krypton.

So in response to your "he did it KNOWING it was wrong in the first place", yes, he knew he was forbidden to do that and he did it anyways. Superman then is able to do what he knows is wrong since STM.

Oh, yes, it's better to be dead than alive, I forgot that.

Superman forgot it also.

He didn't reverse time to bring back to life to all people that died by Zod and co because he was too busy bedding Lois. He just think it's better for his personal girl to be alive at any cost.

Why was it wrong to quit his mission?

Why? No reason. Just to have such a vital mission in your life as protect the whole Earth and suddenly quit it because of your selfish personal satisfaction and by that letting any villiain to kill people as he wishes, best decision in the world, not wrong at all.

Oh yes, he doesn't have freewill and must do whatever Jor-El says.

In fact he must not. He chooses to do that. Thought you actually knew something about Superman.

And in turn revealing that his character has been portrayed incorrectly. Weak minded, gutless, spineless selfish jerk. Ah yes, I knew there was a reason I disliked SR.

Anyway my original point is that once he's back, Superman cares for what he did and is not oblivious about it, so the reasons why you dislike the movie and the fact that you have them have little to nothing to do with it because it doesn't prove superman doesn't care about his mistakes.

Same way he cared when he quit his mission for Lois and saw it was the wrong decision.

Yes, he's so aware of the serious of his actions that his big send off and profession of commitment to Lois and Jason is "I'm always around." (except when I was gone for the past 5 years)

Yeah, when he didn't know he had a son, he wasn't caring about it. Once he knows he tells Lois he does care but they can't reveal to the world Superman has a son or that could surely out him in constant danger.

And as we already said, even if he knew he had to go to Krypton.

How unoriginal.

And yet true.

Well you've just got STM and Superman II wrong, El Payaso, it's as simple as that.

You just have to prove me wrong. Beyond whatever sugary intentions the directors had. You know this game doesn't end with mere statements.

Oh wait, let me respond for you. "No you've got it wrong, Mego Joe."

How unoriginal.

I usually don't stop at a bare statement and that's it.

 

[matthooper]

Here's a spot on review I just read. Beware though it contains some offensive language.



**Do not post links to stuff with language like that please**

 

[X Knight]

sadly.....the language in that review reflects exactly how I feel whenever I think about SR......

 

[Dr. Fate]

I agree. In fact, Richard was everything Superman should have been in this film, not just parent to his son. He embodied the personality and character of Superman in this movie far more than Routh did.

Agreed.

 

[mego joe]

I put in Superman's shiny red boots, having to make a trip that could last 20 years or maybe forever. Even when he could have said good-bye, isn't it letting Lois believe he doesn't care a real way to put all of the burden in himself so Lois is pissed enough to find another man? Which btw, is what she did?

Not if he truly loves her and values her. Those are the actions of an immature and irresponsible jerk who really doesn't have a clue of how to treat another person.

Things went "wrong" when Supes could return relatively soon and in one piece. Then he understood he wasn't really going to be able to adapt himself to his new reality. He's still young enough to be with Lois but Krypton's trip was supposed to have taken her away from him. He's still Earth's defender but after 5 years all alone in a spaceship he doesn't have the same feeling of belonging anymore.

MOre invented backstory to make sense of SInger's mish mash? Now he really was leaving forever? C'mon, I can make stuff up too.

Ask Jor-El.

Got his e-mail address?

I'm not even questioning why is wrong. I'm stating that Superman knew for a fact it was wrong and he heard it from the same mouth that told him his mission was to defend Earth and humankind. The same man Superman has as his mentor and biological father.

SInce we're never going to be on the same page w/ S:TM and SII, we will never be able to argue from those points of reference and have any understanding.

And with the devotion Supes has always shown to him (in the movies at least) there's no question why he left everything behind to go to Krypton.

Yet every question in the world as to why he couldn't tell Lois the truth.

So in response to your "he did it KNOWING it was wrong in the first place", yes, he knew he was forbidden to do that and he did it anyways. Superman then is able to do what he knows is wrong since STM.

Forbidden by Jor-El, but not necessarily wrong.

Superman forgot it also.

Apparently you're the only one who believes this to be true.

He didn't reverse time to bring back to life to all people that died by Zod and co because he was too busy bedding Lois. He just think it's better for his personal girl to be alive at any cost.

That's b/c they stole the ending for that story to use in the first one, plus (and stop me if you've heard this one before) he's human. But to add, a genuinely good human who is willing to save the life of the woman he loves even if it means defying Marlon Brando.

Why? No reason. Just to have such a vital mission in your life as protect the whole Earth and suddenly quit it because of your selfish personal satisfaction and by that letting any villiain to kill people as he wishes, best decision in the world, not wrong at all.

He didn't simply 'quit' his mission as mandated by Jor-El, he gave up his powers that obligate him to that mission so that he could live a norman life. If Zod and Co. hadn't been around then that would have been the end of SUperman. And Jor-El couldn't have been against it completely, otherwise he wouldn't have given him the means to eradicate his powers.

In fact he must not. He chooses to do that. Thought you actually knew something about Superman.

Unfortunately, one of the biggest drawbacks of the Donner films are the mandates of Jor-El. Kind of takes away a lot of one's freewill. And only by the end of SII has he finally made that decision.

Anyway my original point is that once he's back, Superman cares for what he did and is not oblivious about it, so the reasons why you dislike the movie and the fact that you have them have little to nothing to do with it because it doesn't prove superman doesn't care about his mistakes.

It's just not executed well enough to make me believe that he REALLY cares, it's all just superficial and shallow characterization.

Same way he cared when he quit his mission for Lois and saw it was the wrong decision.

NOpe, completely differenct actually.

Yeah, when he didn't know he had a son, he wasn't caring about it. Once he knows he tells Lois he does care but they can't reveal to the world Superman has a son or that could surely out him in constant danger.

And as we already said, even if he knew he had to go to Krypton.

To bad he couldn't have been more like the average person who knows it's the his obligation to say goodbye in that kind of situation instead of being the gutless wonder of Bryan SInger's imagination.

And yet true.

Stop me if you've heard this one before. And yet untrue.

You just have to prove me wrong. Beyond whatever sugary intentions the directors had. You know this game doesn't end with mere statements.

El Payaso, you're the one that's got it wrong. The sugary intentions are what count. If you're life is so horrible that you can only see the worst in people, I feel truly sorry for you.

S:TM and SII give the viewer hope that one man with amazing powers can make a difference when committed to helping other people and will go to ANY extent to right a mistake. That's just not what SR is about.

How unoriginal.

I learned from the master of unoriginality!

I usually don't stop at a bare statement and that's it.

YOu really should go back and read more of your own posts.

 

[superbaby]

After a year plus, I’m still pretty upset whenever I think of SR. the major problem to me is that superman even though has all the superpowers, he didn’t act like a man in the movie. The sadistic kicking ass scene pissed me off further. I seriously believe that it got something to do with the director’s sexuality.

 

[buggs0268]

He just stole too much from the bible and other things.