Superman Returns Why Don't Some Superman Fans Like Superman Returns?

[El Payaso]

I don't think Orin mentioned box office take, did he?

I don’t think either. It’d be admitting that more people liked SR than liked BB.

It's been discussed ad infinitum that BO take is not an indicator of quality.

Nor is getting a sequel or not.

I know you liked it Mostpowerful, but that doesn't mean it was a good Superman film.

If that’s true, then: I know you hated it mego joe, but that doesn't mean it was a bad Superman film.

 

[mego joe]

Right, because YOU say so? Please.. To me BB is good, but I don't enjoy it nearly as much as I enjoy SR. It is a matter of taste, you know what that means? Such arrogance..

THe arrogance goes both ways...

It comes down to your word against mine, and in My world, I'm totally right. Got it?

In my world I'm totally right then too, yes? If you look beyond the superficial BO results of the two films, you will see that BB has been more successful and is considered to be a better film.

Objectively, SR was not as bad as I might it out to be and not as good as you make it out to be but rather mediocre at best. It clearly did not meet WB's financial expectations, nor did it succeeded in re-starting the Superman film franchise, otherwise we'd be talking about the filming of the sequel instead of if a sequel is even made. Additionally, there wouldn't be this divide amongst the fans that you choose to minimize. I'm certain it's significance is not lost on WB.

DOes Nolan's Bat-franchise have websites dedicted to eradicating it? No. Does SR? Yes. This should be a clear enough sign to everyone that something more than 'lack of action' was wrong with SR. BB hit the right buttons in terms of the main characters, SR did not. Even if you like SR more, this remains a fact. It just means you are accepting of a Superman that is portrayed out of character from any

relevant version of the character.

Got it?

And many fans like it as well, but honestly? Fans are a tiny minority, they don't really matter in the grand squeme of things. It is the mainstream that makes or breaks a movie.

Apparently, the studios disagrees with you, otherwise, we'd already have a sequel filiming wouldn't we? If you follow what's going on there are stories in the media that indicate that studios not only care but need the fans to make these films successful and profitable. There was a great article in USA Today about the fanboy a little while back that I saved, I'll post it here because it is completely relevant.

 

[Orin]

The thing is also that, just like Mostpowerful said, the Mainstream dosn't care about those details, that Singer screwed up and yeah, their only problem with SR properbly was the lack of action. But as long as you give a mainstream audience a good, action packed movie and don't change basic elements like the costume, him being Clark Kent or his ability to fly, they'll go for it, no matter what stuff, that has nothing to do with Superman, you add. But since the average audience dosn't care for details like the kid and the fans hate them, what the hell is the point of adding/keeping them? The mainstream audience wants to see a big, entertaining action movie, so yeah, give them that. But the details are there for the people who care about that stuff and since that people are the fans, you should try to make those things in a way that they satisfy these fans. Just look at the Superman cartoon, it has a lot of action and it is entertaining for the kids, but it is also deeply true to the iconic elements and history that define Superman, it combines all that to something that for a lot of fans almost feels ultimate and where it is right, it even adds it's own edge That's how Superman should have been and not only the mainstream audience but also almost every fan of the character, no matter how his personal favorite version looks like, would have been satisfied...

 

[GreenKToo]

I'll wade in.
I liked S.R. but I wanted to love it and I didnt.

I sat in the theater with anxious anticipating for the start of it. The opening credits rolled and I loved the shot of the camera zooming through space with the superman theme blasting. I was thinking to myself, "this is going to be one awesome film".

Then the scene with Luthor at the mansion played and I was like WTF was that??

There were more WTF moments, but there were also some really good moments as well, Like the plane/shuttle rescue scene. I loved that, absolutely loved it. and also the yacht lifting scene was great.

I hated the beatdown scene in the F.O.S. He should have at least tried to fight back a little even if he was weakened somewhat. He is SuperMAN after all.
I hated the scene where the one dog is eating the bones of the other dog. why was that there? I understand humorous scenes and all, but that wasnt funny.


All in all I was left somewhat disappointed. I felt like I didnt get the things from S.R. that should have been in a Superman film.
It ended and I felt neither happy nor sad. I was just like ''o.k. then, its over'' and I shouldnt have felt that way.

Still, its not the worst C.B. film ever, far from it. but it could have been so much more.

For my part i'm willing to give singer another chance, but I'm gonna keep up with the production closely to see if the sequel looks improved over S.R.

 

[mego joe]

The thing is also that, just like Mostpowerful said, the Mainstream dosn't care about those details, that Singer screwed up and yeah, their only problem with SR properbly was the lack of action. But as long as you give a mainstream audience a good, action packed movie and don't change basic elements like the costume, him being Clark Kent or his ability to fly, they'll go for it, no matter what stuff, that has nothing to do with Superman, you add. But since the average audience dosn't care for details like the kid and the fans hate them, what the hell is the point of adding/keeping them? The mainstream audience wants to see a big, entertaining action movie, so yeah, give them that. But the details are there for the people who care about that stuff and since that people are the fans, you should try to make those things in a way that they satisfy these fans. Just look at the Superman cartoon, it has a lot of action and it is entertaining for the kids, but it is also deeply true to the iconic elements and history that define Superman, it combines all that to something that for a lot of fans almost feels ultimate and where it is right, it even adds it's own edge That's how Superman should have been and not only the mainstream audience but also almost every fan of the character, no matter how his personal favorite version looks like, would have been satisfied...

Nice post Orin.

 

[X-Maniac]

You crack me up, X-Maniac. It is always a friend of yours or a person you know.. why don't you just speak for yourself or admit that it is you who think so.

Because it genuinely WAS a comment from a friend of mine! I'll swear my life on it.

I've made my own views on the movie abundantly clear. If I mention a friend, it's because a friend said something. The reason I would mention a friend's comment is generally because it's a friend who is not on the Hype, someone who lives more in the real world than we do. It's interesting to hear what 'real people' think of the movie. Our own opinions are not the same as most normal folk out there, who see a movie, talk about it in the car on the way home, then forget about it.

I resent the implication that I am lying. Why would I need to? I've been brutally honest about my own opinion. I deserve an apology for your remark.

It's you who is cracking me up, because of your own paranoia. If you really want me to get the knives out on here, go right ahead with your silly comments.

 

[Nightwing1977]

Come on, you guys. Let not fight or call other arrogance. Let all just agree to disagree & leave it at that before it get out of hand.

 

[Anubis]

Are you allergic to apostrophes?

 

[Superwoman Prime]

he didn't die in the movie. seemed to me he was just put into a coma from the kryptonite.

He essentially died.

 

[El Payaso]

I'm tired of suggesting everyone to speak for themselves. I could certainly quote many people I know, but that's legally rumour and rumours must be proven. With movie rumours we demand links. But if we only give our own opinions without saying what someone else allegedly said or thought, we won't put other people in the hard and uncomfortable task to trust people who we don't even know. And I mean the poster.

 

[X-Maniac]

I'm tired of suggesting everyone to speak for themselves. I could certainly quote many people I know, but that's legally rumour and rumours must be proven. With movie rumours we demand links. But if we only give our own opinions without saying what someone else allegedly said or thought, we won't put other people in the hard and uncomfortable task to trust people who we don't even know. And I mean the poster.

Maybe so, but a lot of what's on here is unprovable opinion anyway. If you want to tell us what your Aunt Maud thought of the movie, then I have no problem with it.

I actually didn't agree with my friend's comment that the lifting of the island was because the writers didn't know what else could be done with the island, but I thought it an interesting comment.

Someone at work criticised something in X3 that had never crossed my mind and i mentioned that on the X-Men forums as well, a long time back. I like hearing other perspectives - you're right that people could start making things up, and 'friend' does sometimes sound suspicious, but this is the internet where nothing is entirely real!

Next time a friend says something, I'll be sure to stop them, run to get a camera, film it and post the video.

 

[buggs0268]

How did this get turned into a thread where it was supposed to be for fans of Superman stating why they didn't like SR into a thread hijacked again by SR supporters?

 

[Lunar_Wolf]

I'm a big supes fan. I really enjoyed the movie but there were glaring weaknesses.

The kid-Remember him from the comics? Because I sure don't.

Superman leaving-Jerk

Lex-Wasn't his plan the same general idea from the first move?

Action-Not enough, for a Superman movie there should have been tons more.

The movie felt more like a long soap flick.

 

[stargazer]

Because it genuinely WAS a comment from a friend of mine! I'll swear my life on it.

I've made my own views on the movie abundantly clear. If I mention a friend, it's because a friend said something. The reason I would mention a friend's comment is generally because it's a friend who is not on the Hype, someone who lives more in the real world than we do. It's interesting to hear what 'real people' think of the movie. Our own opinions are not the same as most normal folk out there, who see a movie, talk about it in the car on the way home, then forget about it.

I resent the implication that I am lying. Why would I need to? I've been brutally honest about my own opinion. I deserve an apology for your remark.

It's you who is cracking me up, because of your own paranoia. If you really want me to get the knives out on here, go right ahead with your silly comments.

I really think you are overreacting a little too much, X-maniac. And please don't swear, I don't even know you, and if you say your friend's comment is true, well it could be true, of course, however, I still find that kind of stuff as a way to support an argument really amusing, sorry. I prefer people to speak just for themselves or with facts that can be verified in some way, but that's just me.

And No, I won't apologize, and I think you need to relax, or will you apologize for this?

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=288216&page=17

posts 403, 407, 426, which really was insulting.

I'm tired of suggesting everyone to speak for themselves. I could certainly quote many people I know, but that's legally rumour and rumours must be proven. With movie rumours we demand links. But if we only give our own opinions without saying what someone else allegedly said or thought, we won't put other people in the hard and uncomfortable task to trust people who we don't even know. And I mean the poster.

Word.

 

[Nightwing1977]

posts 403, 407, 426, which really was insulting.

I agree. Who the hell give X-Maniac the right to say who is & who isn't a fan of Superman? Because some of us like Superman Returns, we're fan of the director & not Superman, X-Maniac? That funny, but you like X-Men: The Last Stand. I think you like X3 & hate SR, because you hate Singer. Thus, you aren't a fan X-Men.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I really think you are overreacting a little too much, X-maniac. And please don't swear, I don't even know you, and if you say your friend's comment is true, well it could be true, of course, however, I still find that kind of stuff as a way to support an argument really amusing, sorry. I prefer people to speak just for themselves or with facts that can be verified in some way, but that's just me.

And No, I won't apologize, and I think you need to relax, or will you apologize for this?

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=288216&page=17

posts 403, 407, 426, which really was insulting.


Word.

I agree. Who the hell give X-Maniac the right to say who is & who isn't a fan of Superman? Because some of us like Superman Returns, we're fan of the director & not Superman, X-Maniac? That funny, but you like X-Men: The Last Stand. I think you like X3 & hate SR, because you hate Singer. Thus, you aren't a fan X-Men.

You know what the funniest thing about these comments from X-Maniac is? Is the he constantly calls others, and me for not appreciating the opinions of others, yet he comes out with crap like this, on a regular basis i might add. I have never once said that someone is or isnt a true fan of anything because they liked/disliked anything, yet he calls me and others for doing exactly what he does.

It makes me laugh, so we are not Superman fans if we liked SR X-M? We are Singer fans, well, I have never tried to hide the fact that Singer's involvment in SR was the reason i was interested in it, yet, afterwards, i have read 28 Superman graphic novels, NON of which were written by Bryan Singer, and loved all but one. And i still love SR, so, once again, your pathetic comments are proved, ********.

Honestly, how hypocritical.

 

[X-Maniac]

I really think you are overreacting a little too much, X-maniac. And please don't swear, I don't even know you, and if you say your friend's comment is true, well it could be true, of course, however, I still find that kind of stuff as a way to support an argument really amusing, sorry. I prefer people to speak just for themselves or with facts that can be verified in some way, but that's just me.

And No, I won't apologize, and I think you need to relax, or will you apologize for this?

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=288216&page=17

posts 403, 407, 426, which really was insulting.

Well, for a start i wasn't quoting a friend to support an argument. I mentioned it as an incidental - as I keep telling you, it was something i didn't actually agree with.

I don't need your apology of course, so that doesn't matter. And I'm quite relaxed here. This is just an anonymous twitter-zone after all!

Now, of course if you provided facts to back up all your statements, as you asked me to do, that would be something. I do look forward to that.

 

[X-Maniac]

I agree. Who the hell give X-Maniac the right to say who is & who isn't a fan of Superman? Because some of us like Superman Returns, we're fan of the director & not Superman, X-Maniac? That funny, but you like X-Men: The Last Stand. I think you like X3 & hate SR, because you hate Singer. Thus, you aren't a fan X-Men.

The Day That Logic Died.

I think 'Defenders of Singer's Vision' says it all really. It's the vision of Superman that's important, not that of the director.

 

[X-Maniac]

You know what the funniest thing about these comments from X-Maniac is? Is the he constantly calls others, and me for not appreciating the opinions of others, yet he comes out with crap like this, on a regular basis i might add. I have never once said that someone is or isnt a true fan of anything because they liked/disliked anything, yet he calls me and others for doing exactly what he does.

It makes me laugh, so we are not Superman fans if we liked SR X-M? We are Singer fans, well, I have never tried to hide the fact that Singer's involvment in SR was the reason i was interested in it, yet, afterwards, i have read 28 Superman graphic novels, NON of which were written by Bryan Singer, and loved all but one. And i still love SR, so, once again, your pathetic comments are proved, ********.

Honestly, how hypocritical.

These are such old comments. I've partied, slept, eaten, crapped and lived since then. It's like talking about the Man of Tomorrow with the men of yesterday.

I think the point here is that your entry into the Superman world was the movie. Other than that, take a chill pill.

 

[X-Maniac]

The thing is also that, just like Mostpowerful said, the Mainstream dosn't care about those details, that Singer screwed up and yeah, their only problem with SR properbly was the lack of action. But as long as you give a mainstream audience a good, action packed movie and don't change basic elements like the costume, him being Clark Kent or his ability to fly, they'll go for it, no matter what stuff, that has nothing to do with Superman, you add. But since the average audience dosn't care for details like the kid and the fans hate them, what the hell is the point of adding/keeping them? The mainstream audience wants to see a big, entertaining action movie, so yeah, give them that. But the details are there for the people who care about that stuff and since that people are the fans, you should try to make those things in a way that they satisfy these fans. Just look at the Superman cartoon, it has a lot of action and it is entertaining for the kids, but it is also deeply true to the iconic elements and history that define Superman, it combines all that to something that for a lot of fans almost feels ultimate and where it is right, it even adds it's own edge That's how Superman should have been and not only the mainstream audience but also almost every fan of the character, no matter how his personal favorite version looks like, would have been satisfied...

The thing is though - what stopped the mainstream flocking to see the movie on its opening weekend, given that many critics liked it?

There were trailers, posters, TV adverts, good reviews. The trailers and TV spots didn't show kapow action, because there wasn't any...was that enough to put people off?

 

[El Payaso]

I'm a big supes fan. I really enjoyed the movie but there were glaring weaknesses.

The kid-Remember him from the comics? Because I sure don't.

I remember Mr. Mxyzptlk from the comics and I hope I'll never have the misfortune of having him on a movie.

Things are good or not no matter if they were on comics before.

Superman leaving-Jerk

Superman leaving - commintment to his original race.

Leaving without saying good-bye - big mistake.

Lex-Wasn't his plan the same general idea from the first move?

Isn't his plan always to get rid of Superman. Should that change?

Action-Not enough, for a Superman movie there should have been tons more.

I could agree with this one.

I rather having the heart and brtains before action, but more action won't harm.

The movie felt more like a long soap flick.

Why exactly? Romance and story in it?

Did Gone with the Wind feel like a soap flick?

 

[Nightwing1977]

The Day That Logic Died.

I think 'Defenders of Singer's Vision' says it all really. It's the vision of Superman that's important, not that of the director.

What wrong with Singer using his vision? That is a director's job!! Not to mention you forgot that with 70 yrs. of history, there always different vision of Superman some fans like where other doesn't. Some like Pre-Crisis Superman, other like the Post-Crisis one. Some like his hair short, some like it longer. SR is another example of this.

And just because someone defend Singer's vision don't mean they're just fan of Singer. If you think I'm not a Superman's fan, please give me proof I'm not because I can say you're not. Again, defending a director's vision don't mean one is just a fan of him & not Superman. But thank for calling some of us who like Singer's vision as fan of his & not a fan of Superman. But hey, you're not a Superman fan either with hating SR. See the difference? But hey, I know you're not an X-Men fan with liking the crappy X3. For all we know, SR could be similiar to X3 with how many fans dislike both.

 

[Nightwing1977]

I think the point here is that your entry into the Superman world was the movie. Other than that, take a chill pill.

Hmmm....are you sure you weren't an X-Men fan till you saw the movies? Or perhaps you're a fan of Superman from the tv show? See? You're the same as you accuse some of not being a fan. Don't deny it, liar.

 

[Angeloz]

Inverse-square law.

I didn't want to be technical.

That's what it comes down to. It's safe to say that this scene was more than a little inconsistent, but if you're going to suspend disbelief for a film about a man who flies and bounces bullets off his chest, then this inconsistency shouldn't bother you that much.

On the other hand, if that bit ruined the movie for you fair enough. Personally, it didn't bother me that much, and that's coming from someone who was really unimpressed with this movie.

I think most films and in particular comic book films have an ending that if you stood it up to reality then it would be ludicrous. I can think of "Batman Begins". I like that film too.

I think people would be more forgiving with issues like this is the characterization and story had been better AND better executed.

For some that would be true. Although it can make them look silly sometimes. I never realised that men could be that obsessed about clothing, hair and muscles (not all of you).

THe arrogance goes both ways...


In my world I'm totally right then too, yes? If you look beyond the superficial BO results of the two films, you will see that BB has been more successful and is considered to be a better film.

Objectively, SR was not as bad as I might it out to be and not as good as you make it out to be but rather mediocre at best. It clearly did not meet WB's financial expectations, nor did it succeeded in re-starting the Superman film franchise, otherwise we'd be talking about the filming of the sequel instead of if a sequel is even made. Additionally, there wouldn't be this divide amongst the fans that you choose to minimize. I'm certain it's significance is not lost on WB.

DOes Nolan's Bat-franchise have websites dedicted to eradicating it? No. Does SR? Yes. This should be a clear enough sign to everyone that something more than 'lack of action' was wrong with SR. BB hit the right buttons in terms of the main characters, SR did not. Even if you like SR more, this remains a fact. It just means you are accepting of a Superman that is portrayed out of character from any[/b]
Got it?


Apparently, the studios disagrees with you, otherwise, we'd already have a sequel filiming wouldn't we? If you follow what's going on there are stories in the media that indicate that studios not only care but need the fans to make these films successful and profitable. There was a great article in USA Today about the fanboy a little while back that I saved, I'll post it here because it is completely relevant.

I'll admit I liked "Batman Begins" but only saw it once at the cinema. I did want it on DVD though (and was given it when it came out). So "Superman Returns" was more immediately enjoyable or to my taste. I think it was all the subtle stuff added to it. Because "Batman Begins" stated the obvious and left no real room to interpret things. Also on the Bat Boards there are people that don't like it. For whatever reason. Some because they like Burton more. Just because a lot of people liked it does not mean everyone did. I did however. I even look forward to the next film. And if they release it here on IMAX I might see it there. My point is there is always a "fan" or "fanbase" that aren't going to like something. And Superman has I suspect a much more diverse fanbase (because of more than one TV show and other things).

The thing is also that, just like Mostpowerful said, the Mainstream dosn't care about those details, that Singer screwed up and yeah, their only problem with SR properbly was the lack of action. But as long as you give a mainstream audience a good, action packed movie and don't change basic elements like the costume, him being Clark Kent or his ability to fly, they'll go for it, no matter what stuff, that has nothing to do with Superman, you add. But since the average audience dosn't care for details like the kid and the fans hate them, what the hell is the point of adding/keeping them? The mainstream audience wants to see a big, entertaining action movie, so yeah, give them that. But the details are there for the people who care about that stuff and since that people are the fans, you should try to make those things in a way that they satisfy these fans. Just look at the Superman cartoon, it has a lot of action and it is entertaining for the kids, but it is also deeply true to the iconic elements and history that define Superman, it combines all that to something that for a lot of fans almost feels ultimate and where it is right, it even adds it's own edge That's how Superman should have been and not only the mainstream audience but also almost every fan of the character, no matter how his personal favorite version looks like, would have been satisfied...

Some fans of Superman did like the film. I'm one of them.

The thing is though - what stopped the mainstream flocking to see the movie on its opening weekend, given that many critics liked it?

There were trailers, posters, TV adverts, good reviews. The trailers and TV spots didn't show kapow action, because there wasn't any...was that enough to put people off?

I believe it made millions in the opening week. I know when I saw it the cinema was a full house or near enough to that (the room itself).

How did this get turned into a thread where it was supposed to be for fans of Superman stating why they didn't like SR into a thread hijacked again by SR supporters?

People can't discuss things? Or shockingly disagree with one another? Come on you know you like me.

Angeloz

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

These are such old comments. I've partied, slept, eaten, crapped and lived since then. It's like talking about the Man of Tomorrow with the men of yesterday.

I think the point here is that your entry into the Superman world was the movie. Other than that, take a chill pill.

So what if it was, have i ever denied this was the case? We all have to start out as fans somewere, and after SR, i didnt buy books about Bryan Singer, i bought ones about SUPERMAN.


Take a chill pill? Maybe take some of you own advice when you are so viscious to others when they criticise X3.