The Dark Knight Why getting tone and feel right is more important than detail accuracy...

ultimatefan

The Batman must come back
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One of the things that sometimes annoys me with part of the comics fandom is how much people tend to obssess with accuracy to details. They want things to be EXACTLY like the comics, even given that it´s impossible to begin with. That´s especially true to characters´ looks, and sometimes even relatively small changes - am I the only one who sees that the Superman Returns suit is still 90% an accurate to comics Superman suit? - can cause quite a stir. That comes with some distortions of priorities, such as people giving more value to details accuracy than the look giving you the right tone and feel of the character.

Let´s see a look that can be considered pretty "accurate". In theory, Cesar Romero´s Joker is not only pretty accurate to the comics of his period, but even close to the modern comics look: the bright red lips are there, the chalk-white skin, the green hair, it could even be said it´s closer than Jack Nicholson´s look - hey, it has no perma-smile! But could a modern interpretation of Joker look just like Romero and still work? No. Because in spirte of those details, what Romero´s Joker gives you is a campy clown, which of course is what Joker was back in the day, but is totally inconsistent with the psychotic Joker of Bill Finger and Bob Kane, Dennis O´Neil and Neal Adams, Steve Englehart and Marshall Rogers, Alan Moore and Brian Bolland, etc.

We don´t even need to go that far: In theory, Two-Face´s makeup in Batman Forever is accurate. Yeah, if you look you can even find pinkish versions of the acid-burned half in comics. What was the real problem with Two-Face? He was portrayed as a cackling, jumpy, campy villain instead of the dark and tragic character from the comics.

Now, I´m sure if there was Internet back in 89, a lot of fans would have made tons of noise against Batman wearing black instead of blue and gray: he had been wearing light blue and gray suit for decades in comics, even in the darker O´Neil/Englehart ones - and I´m not even gonna get into the rubber armor thing or the absence of briefs, etc. If you wanna really nitpick it, even Joker´s look wasn´t 100% right. Nicholson was chubby while comics Joker is notoriously skinny, not to mention the perennial smile. Accurate it wasn´t. But in the end of the day, it worked, why? Cuz the tone and feel were right. Batman is supposed to look dark, creepy, stealthy, mysterious. And Joker, while still with a good deal of camp in him, was also the homicidal maniac from comics. It´s the purpose of the look, not the details.

People´s initial reaction to the new Joker isn´t too different from what it´d have been, there was Internet in 89, to Batman´s black suit - hey, in theory it´s a more radical change than anything done to Superman´s suit in SR! And it´s also not too different from what the recent reaction was to, say, The Tumbler in Batman Begins, not the traditional sports car with fins from most comics incarnations.

And that´s why I´m not shaken by all those negative comments against Joker´s look. The look may not be "comics-accurate" - or it is, you just have to look at the right comics -, but the tone is right. The Joker I love from comics looks like a creepy psychotic distortion of a clown´s look, and that´s the concept here as well, details aside. Okay, it´d have probably helped if he was smiling in the picture, but I remember the first pics we saw of The Tumbler and Batman´s suit in BB didn´t exactly do them justice either. The clever, anarchic and unusual way that the image was revealed to us, however, was brilliantly Joker-like. They know the character. There will be plenty of time for people to see that there´s much more to The Joker than clean white makeup and neat red lips, and Nolan and his people know it.
 
Very well said! I agree with you and appreciate this well written post. :yay:
 
Well said. I'm confident it will all work out in the end, after we have seen the movie and have seen how the character is portrayed.
 
see what you said is never going to work,mainly because its common sense, and that just dont filter through to die hard fanboys
 
the die hard fan-boys can go out and buy batman (60 and 89) and go live in a cave if they want.... i like ultimate fan are waiting ofr the finnished product ot be blown away and happy... or let down and disappointed
 
What counts for me how the character is portrayed rather the look. Well said Ultimatefan.
 
Agreed. When the Tumbler pics first came out people were polarized as well. But, it fit perfectly with the tone and feel of BB. Same thing is happening with the Joker. But like some one mentioned common sense and die hard fanboys are oil and water.
 
there´s much more to The Joker than clean white makeup and neat red lips, and Nolan and his people know it.

:up:

The Joker lives a violent life. So in that way the scars are perfectly reasonable. Also, in the books he's always been referred to as 'disfigured'. Well sorry but on screen pale skin and red lips doesn't really count as disfigured anymore, and it won't have so much impact the second time around.

Nolan and co have already demonstrated they understand the Joker in the marketing, the sides, the mystery. Furthermore the act of painting a smile over his scars is a pure Joker move. If anyone read it in the comics they'd say yeah, that makes sense. Nolan has gone beyond the visual and into the mindset over the Joker, who will manifest more of his personality in his design as the movie progresses.

So although the details are new to the Joker, imo they'll still match the core of the character as well as the tone of the movie.
 
I agree, ultimatefan, and this Joker, I dig it.

Yes, I wanted something different, something more intimidating, and this Joker really seems a dangerous person, definitely not campy. :)

Also, according to some information brought by Miranda's source, that can be included or not in the film, but [BLACKOUT]Batman inadvertently causes the scarring by throwing a batarang that cuts a zipline, hitting the Joker on his face.[/BLACKOUT] According to that same source, he already is the Joker when this happens, and I think it's a great way to approach the Escalation theme, because he embraces that incident, as much as Batman embraced his own tragic incident. And it reinforces in a way the opposites characteristics of both, almost like archetypes.

And the way the scarring look, it seems plausible that source to be accurate, because one can see that the scars are not symmetrical. One thing that wouldn't probably occur if the scarring was self inflicted.
 
kudos to you, man. people need to stop whining and see what nolan does with the character. jack nicholson's joker, while i liked it and love him as an actor, leaves me with an empty feeling, like they could have done so much more with him. basically he was just being jack nicholson in clown makeup.

i can just tell from the marketing and this picture that we are gonna get the joker we always wanted. but it's not good enough for "batman fans" because "he isn't smiling" in one picture.

i'm sorry, but if anyone, including the joker, had to smile all the time, their face would be sore as hell.
 
The thing that bugs me is that this is only a glimpse. We haven't seen anything else, and you got some people acting all crazy. Come on.

It's not nipple on a batsuit, for God's sakes.
 
This is all quite obvious, and it has been said thousands of times over the past few years: I agree that tone is important, which is one of the reasons I have objected so strongly to the image of The Joke. The tone is entirely wrong for the character, and it may well reflect either misunderstanding of, or contempt for, its long heritage.

I really do hope that I am wrong and that you are all right, so spare me the cries of "fanboy".
 
The thing that bugs me is that this is only a glimpse. We haven't seen anything else, and you got some people acting all crazy. Come on.

It's not nipple on a batsuit, for God's sakes.


That's pretty much what their equating this to. Nipples on the batsuit.
 
yep i agree with your post. well said!
and i just watched BB again today, and i was reminded that we're in good hands. :word:
 
Well said ultimate. I reckon that the Jokers appearance in TDK will eventually grow on almost everyone. Much like the Tumbler.
Sure, maybe not everyone, but theres nothing wrong with that. Everyones entitled to their own opinion.
 
At this point, it looks like thing are going to get worse before they get better.
 
At this point, it looks like thing are going to get worse before they get better.
faith and hope :o
244.nolan.christopher.100406.jpg
 
Y'know, I agree. Tone is more important than most things. But, to be quite honest, I was never happy with BB's tone. It's characterization was great, it's plot, acting, I loved it all. Except for the tone. I never felt it really captured Batman. At least, the Batman I prefer.

Now, here we are at the start of TDK madness, and, it's getting obvious to me that Nolan still doesn't grasp or prescribe to the tone I want for Batman, to the tone I want for the Joker, and that's disappointing. More disappointing than the picture even.
 
At this point, it looks like thing are going to get worse before they get better.

faith and hope :o
244.nolan.christopher.100406.jpg

You do realize what I wrote was a quote from Nolan in describing the theme of TDK? :cwink:


Does anyone else think that they would like to see a cameo by Nolan in this movie? He does kind of have Hollywood looks.
 

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