The Dark Knight Why getting tone and feel right is more important than detail accuracy...

[ultimatefan]

You seem to be confused. Those elements were stressed by us "haters", as you like to call us, to counter the false analysis by several "supporters" that a monstrous, mutilated Joker was in some way a better physical realisation of the character than the traditional depiction. We were just explaining an element of the character with which many seemed to be entirely unfamiliar. I certainly don't maintain that those traits are dominant, as such.

Well, it IS a typical "hater" attitude to exaggerate the argument of the other side. I don´t remember me or most defenders EVER saying this look was necessarily "better" than the traditional one - except in the sense of fitting more Nolan´s approach to the franchise, which isn´t necessarily "better", either, but works for us -, only that I felt that it worked in its own right and doesn´t damage the main traits of the character nearly as much as some implied.

And many of us find this "monsterous" definition arguable, BTW.

 

[regwec]

Yes, so I and others were left to explain why we disagreed. We have been forced to retread the same arguments in defense of our position a number of times; that does not mean that we hold to detail of those arguments above and beyond any other consideration.

 

[ultimatefan]

Yes, so I and others were left to explain why we disagreed. We have been forced to retread the same arguments in defense of our position a number of times; that does not mean that we hold to detail of those arguments above and beyond any other consideration.

Well, I myself had already to explain quite a few times why I´m not someone who either completely despises or completely ignores comics Joker cuz I like the pic...

 

[Keyser Soze]

Yes, so I and others were left to explain why we disagreed. We have been forced to retread the same arguments in defense of our position a number of times; that does not mean that we hold to detail of those arguments above and beyond any other consideration.

You're not the only one who's been forced to retread their arguments. Here's what I've already said before:

"I don't see what the obsesive attitude is on here, where you have to "choose a side". Anyone who likes Nolan's version of The Joker must hate how he looks in the comics. And any "true fan" of The Joker and his look in the comics is obligated to hate this new interpretation.

Are we not allowed to like both?

To counter regwec's past claims that those of us who like Nolan's Joker will blindly accept anything, he stated that we'd be equally happy with a comics-accurate depiction....yes, I would. I love how The Joker looks in the comics. If we'd got a Joker that looks like he did in "The Killing Joke", yes, I'd have been happy.

But at the same time, I also like the movie version of The Joker. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm "spitting on" the comics, as somebody said earlier, or that I suddenly hate all other interpretations. It just means...gasp!...what I say it means. That I like the new look. It doesn't have to be "right" or "wrong". It's just different."

 

[ultimatefan]

You're not the only one who's been forced to retread their arguments. Here's what I've already said before:

"I don't see what the obsesive attitude is on here, where you have to "choose a side". Anyone who likes Nolan's version of The Joker must hate how he looks in the comics. And any "true fan" of The Joker and his look in the comics is obligated to hate this new interpretation.

Are we not allowed to like both?

To counter regwec's past claims that those of us who like Nolan's Joker will blindly accept anything, he stated that we'd be equally happy with a comics-accurate depiction....yes, I would. I love how The Joker looks in the comics. If we'd got a Joker that looks like he did in "The Killing Joke", yes, I'd have been happy.

But at the same time, I also like the movie version of The Joker. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm "spitting on" the comics, as somebody said earlier, or that I suddenly hate all other interpretations. It just means...gasp!...what I say it means. That I like the new look. It doesn't have to be "right" or "wrong". It's just different."

Yeah, that´s what I been talking about. I can see people preferring the traditional look and I love that look myself, but I take this as a variation that goes through a different tangent but reaches many of the same effects and tone and yet is its own look. But for some it´s traditional or you´re "spitting on comics". I just don´t see things so black-and-white.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Y'know i no longer feel mad or discouraged over the pic,i still will never like the scar idea or see it as necessary but I'd decided the other day to not say more until i saw more and seeing the pic this morning with the purple suit and green hair visible i have to say i feel a lot more inclined to give the scarred idea a pass and even though i don't care a lot for the black circled eyes i realise it has comic precedent so that's merely a personal detail preference for me.

 

[breyfogle_rules]

^^The ice is thawing over here as well hunter.
And I'm happy about that.
Enjoying this film is something I would like to do.

 

[itsthebatman]

I feel a lot happier now. It's all calming down.

 

[The Kid]

Yeah we've gotten over the initial reflexive hype attack and are all coming back down to planet earth.

 

[itsthebatman]

Yeah we've gotten over the initial reflexive hype attack and are all coming back down to planet earth.

Look! There it is!

 

[deathfromabove]

Clearly not, since you have cited just three stories that are uncoincidentally the most commonly known. One of those is a film, and itself a reinvention. The Killing Joke wasn't intended to be taken into continuity, and in any case, the instance you allude to simply shows that The Joker is "cruel". Similarly, the Laughing Fish sees The Joker playing an elaborate joke, rather than having a "twisted view of market economics".

None of this adds weight to your original hypothesis that The Joker has an inverted view of morality and aesthetics. His humour and his menace would be entirely ineffective if he failed to understand the common position on such matters.

the joker is a fictional character who, while retaining some core traits, has been interpreted in myraid ways over the years, sometimes completely ignoring and conflicting with other interpretations. to say that alan moore's take is more "joker" than dini's or o'neil's or vice versa is purely opinion. everyone has a preference as to how these character's are portrayed but all this argument about his "true" personality is getting pedantic, tired, and laughable, especially in light of the fact that we know next to nothing about his behaviour in this movie.

in addition, to claim that the joker doesn't have a twisted sense of "morality and aesthetics" in almost every incarnation speaks volumes abut your knowledge of the character. he is a psychopath (perhaps a very intelligent and charming one). of course his sense of morality is skewed. stop splitting hairs and go read up.

It's strange how people are willing to downplay the idea of The Joker as a crazed, terrifying, psychotic killer who views life and death as a joke, and try and reinvent The Joker as a guy who looks harmless, whose defining characteristic is being vain and caring about his appearance and "good looks", all to try and add credence to their reasoning for hating the movie look of The Joker.

In The Joker stories I've read, his vanity (at least as it alludes to his appearance) has never stood out to me as a crucial trait. But if others do, that's fine. Say you don't like Ledger's Joker, by all means, but don't twist your opinions into evidence to say its "wrong", and not true to the character. Lee Bermejo said it best in his recent interview:

"That's the beauty of these characters, though. They're so ripe for interpretation. That's one of the reasons they're still around and still so popular. Anybody who claims to “know” these characters just has an "idea" of what they want that character to be. This is their right, but it's not necessarily what they will always get."

ive also heard denny o'neil say basically the same thing. open your minds, just a little bit people.

 

[regwec]

That's inevitable. I wouldn't say that I like it any more, though. The thing that sticks in my mind most of all is how uncharacteristic it seems of our First Sovereign Director. In the past, it was my concern that he might misjudge The Joker by seeking to mute his industrially marred face and soul. Instead, he seems to have "overshot" the target, and edged it into an ugly farce.

 

[regwec]

in addition, to claim that the joker doesn't have a twisted sense of "morality and aesthetics" in almost every incarnation speaks volumes abut your knowledge of the character. he is a psychopath (perhaps a very intelligent and charming one). of course his sense of morality is skewed. stop splitting hairs and go read up.

You are welcome to disagree with me, but I would advise you not to patronise me. Thank you.

 

[raybia]

I know its a clique at this point, but I really do believe Nolan is an excellent young filmmaker who is getting better all of the time, really respects the source material, and is no longer bound by an origin story.

I think that he has crafted a story that would be right at home with graphic novels such as TLH AND TKJ.

I'm just trying to not let the behind the scenes info make me forget about the most important part: The finished product.

It will look better than the tidbits were are seeing and hearing about.


Raybia

 

[itsthebatman]

I know its a clique at this point, but I really do believe Nolan is an excellent young filmmaker who is getting better all of the time, really respects the source material, and is no longer bound by an origin story.

I think that he has crafted a story that would be right at home with graphic novels such as TLH AND TKJ.

I'm just trying to not let the behind the scenes info make me forget about the most important part: The finished product.

It will look better than the tidbits were are seeing and hearing about.


Raybia

Absolutely. The finished product is the only thing that should be judged. The buzz around SM3 was good, trailers were great, in the end it fell short. IMO, of course. So, I'm gonna hold my breath on this one and wait until we see the film before saying 'yay' or 'nay'.
Kudos on the earlier contribution to the Spoilers thread with Hunter and LS, BTW.

 

[deathfromabove]

You are welcome to disagree with me, but I would advise you not to patronise me. Thank you.

gladly. but then i would advise you to stop condescending to everyone who isnt crying in the corner over a picture. thank you. i respect everyone's opinion just as long as they realize its just that, an opinion.

im all for agreeing to disagree but some on here are acting as if they have some kind of intellectual superiority that makes their opinions more valid than others and that anyone who disagrees with them just doesnt get the joker. its getting tired. if you cant make your point without condescending to everyone than try harder. at the end of the day we are all batman (and joker) fans. that one one picture should be so divisive is just maddening.

 

[ultimatefan]

Y'know i no longer feel mad or discouraged over the pic,i still will never like the scar idea or see it as necessary but I'd decided the other day to not say more until i saw more and seeing the pic this morning with the purple suit and green hair visible i have to say i feel a lot more inclined to give the scarred idea a pass and even though i don't care a lot for the black circled eyes i realise it has comic precedent so that's merely a personal detail preference for me.

Yeah, I suspected that picture would have that effect, it clearly showcases the more traditional aspects of Joker´s look.

 

[regwec]

Fine, but the "advice" you condescended to give me was espoused in a vacuum far removed from anything I have said on this board or elsewhere. You sought to imply that I had no knowledge or understanding of the character; a position which I hope you will revise. It may be that my "tastes" in the character are narrow, conservative or even homogenous, but it was quite unnecessary for you to try to paint me as a charlatan. Had you given more than a glance at the posts on which you offered such a weighty and compelling pronouncement, you would have seen that "semantics" were quite crucial, as they have the power to shift analysis rather broadly. Your objection was, I think, that I claimed The Joker effectively had a functional understanding of aethetics and morality. I consider that to be correct, but I do not say that he practices these social norms in a functional way. Do you see the difference?

In any case, I do certainly respect all opinions- yours too- or I would simply join the drones on BOF. I will only try to "disprove" somebody over a matter or detail, particularly if they invoke comicbooks in a manner that I consider to be incorrect.

 

[raybia]

Absolutely. The finished product is the only thing that should be judged. The buzz around SM3 was good, trailers were great, in the end it fell short. IMO, of course. So, I'm gonna hold my breath on this one and wait until we see the film before saying 'yay' or 'nay'.
Kudos on the earlier contribution to the Spoilers thread with Hunter and LS, BTW.

Thanks, no one and I mean NO ONE, should have that said about them, especially on the Hype.

 

[itsthebatman]

Regwec, I agree for the most part with your post. But, deathfromabove isn't implying you have no knowledge of the character, he's arguing that you're saying he has no understanding of the character (which is equally wrong).
Both of you clearly love the character, and have good knowledge of him. You just have differing views on how he can and should be portrayed on screen. This, to me, shows, yet again, that there is no one interpretation that has to be, or should be, rigidly adhered to. He's just open to a wide degree of interpretation, even though I also feel he does have a recognisable core.

 

[regwec]

Yes, it's just another case of an argument over a matter of detail coccooning itself over several pages and then hatching to reveal a foul world-eating insectavore.

 

[raybia]

Yes, it's just another case of an argument over a matter of detail coccooning itself over several pages and then hatching to reveal a foul world-eating insectavore.

 

[itsthebatman]

Yes, it's just another case of an argument over a matter of detail coccooning itself over several pages and then hatching to reveal a foul world-eating insectavore.

Insert own them music here.

 

[ultimatefan]

aaaww, isn´t that cute...

 

[Cristo]

Ooh...look!

A pancake!