Will this movie be a retread of Superman II?

[Dr.]

Another thought: SII (any version) was pretty bad. So even if MOS is a “retread,” as long as it’s good... we’re way ahead.

 

[Dangerman]

Another thought: SII (any version) was pretty bad. So even if MOS is a “retread,” as long as it’s good... we’re way ahead.

Superman II was not bad just unfinished. Remember most of the crew was not willing to take part in the reshoots and didn't like how the tone of the film and movie was changed.

 

[Lily Adler]

I care, because if this movie is another retread I would be disappointed with it, I perfer the Superman movies do something we haven't seen before, rather rehashing a lot of the same elements from the past. Here's a good question, how will Zod's character or plans be different from what we saw in Superman II? Will Zod still have a grudge against Jor-El for imprisoning him, will he try to conquer the world with his super powers? Exactly how will Zod be different in this movie then in Superman II?

Heck if they had Zod and some other villain that hasn't appeared in the Silver screen yet, that would be fun. The Dark Knight was about Harvey Dent's fall and it involved Joker ruining Harvey's life and turning him into Two-Face. Two-Face was not present in the 89 Batman movie, was he? That was a different element. Also Joker's social experiment wasn't in the 89 Batman either.

The thing is, if Dark Knight was the first movie Nolan made it wouldn't have been as successful as it was. Having Joker in the first Nolan film would have been a mistake, having Batman's origin and using other villains worked better in Batman Begins, rather trying to use Joker again right away. That's problem with using Zod again, it seems like playing things too safely and frankly it would lower the stakes if Parasite or Metallo was the villain in the next movie after Zod was the villain in this movie. Zod would work better as a villain with a build up, rather then being the enemy in the first movie. Otherwise who would they use next? Brainiac and have another invading alien villain right away? Or lower the stakes with a street level villain in the next film? It seems like they are shooting themselves in the foot.

My best advice is to wait and see. Also we have the mysterious mocap dude, could be Non, could be Doomsday, could be Braniac, could be a beast of the Phantom Zone. Again, we can't be sure either way and I share your concerns as well.

 

[Dr.]

Superman II was not bad just unfinished. Remember most of the crew was not willing to take part in the reshoots and didn't like how the tone of the film and movie was changed.

Same thing, really. Ultimately, you have to judge a movie by what ends up on screen. And by that standard, SII was bad. Special knowledge of behind-the-scenes problems is irrelevant.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

I liked it long before I knew anything about the Donner version.

 

[FilmNerdJamie]

Superman II was not bad just unfinished. Remember most of the crew was not willing to take part in the reshoots and didn't like how the tone of the film and movie was changed.

Unfinished by Donner because he got ****-canned. But there were others brought in to finish it. Vic Armstong's book talks about working on the second round of Superman II shoots under Lester's direction.

The "Donner Cut" is basically a bad fan-edit.

 

[solidsnake86]

Of course its a retread of superman I and II.

Since I disliked both of those films I'm more than happy that their taking this direction because superman has one of the better origin stories of comic book characters and STM just doesn't hold up IMO.

Not only that but superman's origin story is arguably his most popular story in the comics as well, judging by the fact its been done at least 5 times in the past 10 years.

 

[GreenKToo]

I think the BIGGEST distinction that automatically separates MOS from SII right off the bat is that SII was a direct sequel to something, whereas MOS will be a ORIGIN film about Superman's beginnings.

Not to mention that SII had Lex Luther, whereas MOS supposedly doesn't..and if you count the presence of those Mo-cap guys as something, then that would mean that Zod and Faora have a group of their own to use in causing havoc and such.

I could seriously go on about this.lol

I'd bet real money that Brainiac gets a cameo, or MOS leads off with him being the villain in a possible sequel.

 

[Kal-El.9859]

stop complaining and just go see the movie

 

[GreenKToo]

It's not reinventing the wheel here, but it's definitely not a follow-up to Donner's films and I think that's the key point Hopefulsuicide is making.

Superman Returns was clearly sold as an indirect (or direct, depending on your perception) sequel to Superman II, despite arriving 25 years later. Yet it ignored Superman III and IV. Singer himself said last year - "I want to make a romantic movie that harkens back to the Richard Donner movie that I loved so much".

Lois had Superman's son, which clearly occurred after they slept together in Superman II. You had yet another Lex Luthor real estate plot. The 'statistically speaking, it's still the safest way to travel" line. The John Williams theme. The very similar title graphics. Marlon Brando as Jor-El, again. A lead actor who was said by many to resemble Christopher Reeve. The Superman suit, while altered in terms of colour and crest size, was still fundamentally the same design. The farm looked very similar. And lots of other little nods, like Superman blowing out Lois' cigarette in both films, his signature flight around Earth and smile to the camera at the end, etc. All things which appeared in the Donner film in an identical or very close way.

From what we've seen so far of MOS - they are taking an entirely new approach. No-one from previous films has been recast. The suit is very different. The crest design is totally different. There has been no indication that any score from previous films will be used. Entirely new sets have been built. Clark's backstory looks to involve him travelling the world, which wasn't something we seen much of in any previous films. Henry Cavill does not really resemble Reeve facially at all asides from the dark hair. There looks to be much more action in this film than previous ones. The Kents appear younger than the versions used in Donner films.

Good points, but it is still basically, IMVHO, a retread by using Zod. That said, there is Nothing wrong with that either, because if it's as good as we all think and hope it is, it should do gangbusters at the BO. ( still, if they would have used Brainiac as the villain, it would have stopped the retread arguements )

But anyway, retread or fresh, I dont really care. I just want a good film with lots of action and good acting.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

You're rabidly defending it because you're a Cavill fangirl by your own admittance.

One drooling Cavill fangirl defending another. How...surprising? *Shrugs*

FYI, I'm first and foremost a SUPERMAN fan girl.

I like Cavill, I think he's hot, I've been following his work since he was announced in the role and i'm excited by everything he has said and done since. I am enthusiastic about what he will bring to the character.

Explain to me what in the hell is wrong with that? And why it deserves dismissiveness of my opinion because of it.

AGAIN!

Cynicism = validity, I guess.

Holy terrible argument, Batman. In that sense BB and TDKR are just retreading Batman 1989, because, you know, that was in part a Batman origin story where his rich parents died, he lived in a mansion with a butler named Alfred, and the biggest villain was a crime boss/murderer dressed as a clown terrorizing the city of Gotham. Yeah, it's a NEW Batman origin/Joker storyline.

I wouldn't be surprised if he does think TDK was a re tread of Batman 89...

And if he doesn't, i'd love to see him explain why after the last few pages of argueing why MOS will be a retread.

Apparently you get called names and labeled fanboy or fangirl these days for being overly enthusiastic and excited about something, didn't you know that was a crime? welcome to the internet.

I really hate being told off for being too happy... it's bizarre.

How DARE you suggest this is going to be an original movie! You're obviously blinded by your silly girly love of Henry Cavill!

 

[FilmNerdJamie]

FYI, I'm first and foremost a SUPERMAN fan girl.

I like Cavill, I think he's hot, I've been following his work since he was announced in the role and i'm excited by everything he has said and done since. I am enthusiastic about what he will bring to the character.

Explain to me what in the hell is wrong with that? And why it deserves dismissiveness of my opinion because of it.

Again as I explained earlier (once again), you're a Cavill fangirl. But your own admittance, and the fanboy/fangirl ilk don't think logically. Hence your continued volatile attitude. Which again you started because you didn't agree with something I said here. For someone who likes to dish it out with snarkiness towards others, you certainly can't take it when the shoe is on the other foot. Irony.

And if he doesn't, i'd love to see him explain why after the last few pages of argueing why MOS will be a retread.

Coming from someone who refusing to see how Man of Steel could be considered a retread to the first two Superman movies? Again with the irony.

You're obviously blinded by your silly girly love of Henry Cavill!

When said poster claims to be a huge fan of Cavill and then admits to never seeing him act before...yeaaaah...

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

TDK- Harvey Dent is the White Knight that puts criminals and the mob behind bars legally.
B89- Harvey Dent is a public figure who vows to put mob boss Grissom (was it?) behind bars.

TDK-Joker gives in videos of his crimes to the news.
B89- Joker gives in a video of his crimes to the news.

TDK- Batman is framed for murders villain committed.
BR- Batman is framed for murder villain committed.

TDKR- Bruce and Selina dance at a masquerade ball.
BR- Bruce and Selina dance at a masquerade ball.


These are just a few of many. Man of Steel will retread and reuse plots, elements and events from Superman, Superman II and maybe more. It does not however mean the movie as a whole will just be a do-over. Now HS, Jamie, stop your pointless goddamn bickering.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

the fanboy/fangirl ilk don't think logically.

I don't mind if you think i'm illogical

In my entire time on this forum, i've had a lot of debates with people, even one's that have been heated. But no one's ever thought me illogical before... I guess, you really just have a bad opinion of me.

Oh well, I can't get on with everyone, no matter how much I like too!

Now HS, Jamie, stop your pointless goddamn bickering.

After that statement, I will agree to give up this pointless bickering

 

[Binker]

No, in no way is MOS a retread of SII. But you know what I've been wondering? I wondering how much elements of MOS that they're using is from Flyby?

 

[DKDetective]

TDK- Harvey Dent is the White Knight that puts criminals and the mob behind bars legally.
B89- Harvey Dent is a public figure who vows to put mob boss Grissom (was it?) behind bars.

TDK-Joker gives in videos of his crimes to the news.
B89- Joker gives in a video of his crimes to the news.

TDK- Batman is framed for murders villain committed.
BR- Batman is framed for murder villain committed.

TDKR- Bruce and Selina dance at a masquerade ball.
BR- Bruce and Selina dance at a masquerade ball.


These are just a few of many. Man of Steel will retread and reuse plots, elements and events from Superman, Superman II and maybe more. It does not however mean the movie as a whole will just be a do-over. Now HS, Jamie, stop your pointless goddamn bickering.

Yeah, I think the point is that no matter what when you are basing something on the same material, they are going to be similarities. Unless you are going to be incredibly unfaithful to the source material and change the characters, it's unavoidable. What matters is how it all works together. Despite all the similarities Llama_Shepherd mentioned, I don't think anyone would call Nolan's films' retreads. I think the combination of a Kryptonian villain with Superman's origin story is a big enough fundamental difference to make this film feel fresh.

Moreover, I think this thread is rather pointless until we have a lot more information. Because right now, all people can argue is "omg guyz, they are using Zod and Faora/Ursa again.... SMII remake" You know this thread is not going to end well when a few pages in, you have a mod making inflammatory arguments about other posters being "drooling fangirls".

 

[Kurosawa]

Worst case scenario, MOS will be just as bad a retread of Superman I and II as Superman Returns was of Superman I, but with a better looking Krypton, a worse looking and less faithful Superman costume, no Lex and no Jimmy.

Best case scenario it will be a fresh start despite similar villains to previous movies.

Personally, I'm still waiting for a faithful Superman movie to made, and it most likely never will happen since Superman has been lost over the last 25 years. But maybe it will happen if the lawsuits are ever settled.

A lot of it is on Cavill, IMO. If his Superman is as genuine and as noble as Christopher Reeves without being a copy of it, then a lot of the other flaws will be easy to overlook. Captain America was a much better movie than it could have been just because of the sincerity of Chris Evans portrayal of Cap. If Cavill excels, then the movie will be that much better and the flaws that much more forgivable.

 

[manofsteel4life]

Well for starters, if the script allows, I hope HC brings the same intensity he brought in immortals to Superman

 

[KingKane88]

One drooling Cavill fangirl defending another. How...surprising? *Shrugs*

For one... You know darn well I am not a girl Jamie, nice try, and very unprofessional on your part for someone in your position of authority.

2nd: I am a former Mod on the MagicCafeForums, and for 3 years I served, we are just 100 members shy of clearing the 50,000 mark. My point being...


Whenever I saw a poster overly enthused about an effect or trick, I took kindly to it, that is the sole reason and purpose that we as a forum exist as a business to begin with. NO forum on the internet would be in business if not for the support and enthusiasm of the people who register.


I took a look back at many of your posts, and you are full of nothing but negative energy, you trot around these boards as if you are better then those who are happy about something. Your like the grumpy old man next door ruining all the fun for the others!


And you have the nerve to talk about rational??? Seriously?


Personally, I registered on these boards because I am very excited about MOS, I have met some incredible people on these boards, one being "Hopefullsuicide". She is one of the most rational posters on these boards, very smart and very professional in manor. SO WHAT is she LOVES Henry, SO what if she feels MOS will be different?!!! Just because she is excited about something does not give you the right to start name calling, and saying she is irrational, it's bull!


Fangirl/fanboy, that's derogatory! How do you think that makes someone feel Jamie? You must obviously be trying to lose business for SHH!, because it's people like you who draw the fans away.


The sole reason I, and many others registered on these boards is because we have a passion and love for what we all feel will be an incredible movie, that is the heart of everything, and for you to keep coming with this negative energy and putting people down simply because they are enthused and excited is bullS**T, and very unprofessional for someone in your position!

 

[GreenKToo]

I don't blame folks for being concerned and worried. I blindly followed the other film and when concerns popped up, ie, no supervillain, a superkid, etc etc, I was told to shut up and trust singer, he knows what he's doing.

Thats Not gonna happen this time. I won't lie, using Zod again does make me a little worried, but I will reserve judgement until we see the trailer(s) and the final product.

The main thing i'm wanting to see is a huge fight in Metropolis with lots of damage, but it appears that the big fight will be in smallville instead. Its possible I guess that some huge epic fight scenes of Metropolis have been filmed behind closed doors, because nothing like that has been seen filmed on the streets.

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

Spoiler

Worst case scenario, MOS will be just as bad a retread of Superman I and II as Superman Returns was of Superman I, but with a better looking Krypton, a worse looking and less faithful Superman costume, no Lex and no Jimmy.

Best case scenario it will be a fresh start despite similar villains to previous movies.

Personally, I'm still waiting for a faithful Superman movie to made, and it most likely never will happen since Superman has been lost over the last 25 years. But maybe it will happen if the lawsuits are ever settled.

A lot of it is on Cavill, IMO. If his Superman is as genuine and as noble as Christopher Reeves without being a copy of it, then a lot of the other flaws will be easy to overlook. Captain America was a much better movie than it could have been just because of the sincerity of Chris Evans portrayal of Cap. If Cavill excels, then the movie will be that much better and the flaws that much more forgivable.

Couldn't agree more with all of the above.
Certainly Chris Evans was the heart and soul of the Captain America film.

From the few bits and pieces I have heard from and about Cavill, he has a great respect for the character of Superman and I have high hopes we will get something as good as Batman Begins, with an actor in the lead role who has the same sincerity, humility and likeability as Christopher Reeve had.

Just so long to wait....

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

Spoiler

I don't mind if you think i'm illogical

In my entire time on this forum, i've had a lot of debates with people, even one's that have been heated. But no one's ever thought me illogical before... I guess, you really just have a bad opinion of me.

Oh well, I can't get on with everyone, no matter how much I like too!



After that statement, I will agree to give up this pointless bickering

I always enjoy your posts HS and they are, almost without exception, well thought out.
Keep 'em coming.

 

[Herolee10]

I don't blame folks for being concerned and worried. I blindly followed the other film and when concerns popped up, ie, no supervillain, a superkid, etc etc, I was told to shut up and trust singer, he knows what he's doing.

Thats Not gonna happen this time. I won't lie, using Zod again does make me a little worried, but I will reserve judgement until we see the trailer(s) and the final product.

The main thing i'm wanting to see is a huge fight in Metropolis with lots of damage, but it appears that the big fight will be in smallville instead. Its possible I guess that some huge epic fight scenes of Metropolis have been filmed behind closed doors, because nothing like that has been seen filmed on the streets.

Well we did get confirmation through fan videos that have recorded production in Chicago (aka Metropolis) that they filmed a sequence featuring a bunch of people running on the street in fear, along with several people looking up in the sky, so I wonder if that indicates something.

 

[BH/HHH]

Superman Returns would have been better off if they didn't cut the film and released Superman: The Movie and Superman II:TRDC in theaters before it's (SR) release so than it will seem at least somewhat like a fresh sequel. Superman Returns wasn't even a retread yes it gave some nods to the old movie but in the same it was linked to the old movie.

This movie will not be a retread either yes people might think of it as a mix between the two movies because how very very similar they are. But at the end of the day I am sure it will not feel like the same movie although the plots are almost exactly the same.

I think you've misunderstood what I've said. I'm basically saying using the same characters there's always going to be similarities but it doesn't mean its not fresh.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Personally, I registered on these boards because I am very excited about MOS, I have met some incredible people on these boards, one being "Hopefullsuicide". She is one of the most rational posters on these boards, very smart and very professional in manor.
.

I always enjoy your posts HS and they are, almost without exception, well thought out.
Keep 'em coming.

Thanks guys

At the end of the day, I guess I shouldn't care so much what other people post.

I just hate to think that a thread like this will actually lead to people thinking this movie is just a remake of the old films. And that it will put them off it in some way, make them think this film is going to be nothing to be excited about.

It's kind of an essential selling point that Nolan, Snyder and co. are trying to make - This is NOT a remake, loose sequel or in any way based on the old movies. This is a completely rebooted franchise, with an exciting new concept.

The word retread has a sort of negative connotation, especially in the context of SR and it's most common criticisms like the OP stated.

Yes, the technical meaning of the word can be made to fit.

But I for one will be going into this film expecting to be watching something different to any interpretation of Superman i've seen before.

Which, FYI, is something I never got from SR. Because Singer kept SAYING it was more of the same.