The Dark Knight William Fichtner - Wasted?

[gwynplaine]

Wilkinson makes the character more than he is on the page. The characterization he gave them, the way the character looks around the room at the end of the scene, the way he handles the dialogue is what makes the character come to life in the scene.

But since you don't like Wilkinson's performance, that means nothing to you.

I just remembered another scene where we learn that Falcone is a product of his own fear technique when Crane says that Ra's is coming to Gotham.

"He's coming to Gotham?"

It's such a small moment, but you see in Falcone's eyes that he feels like he's in trouble. So what does Falcone do? He plays nice again with Crane, offering to take up the job crane wants him to do.

I agree Wilkinson makes the character (pretty generic and cliche on the page). Just like he owns Michael Clayton. Wonderful actor.

 

[The Joker]

I agree Wilkinson makes the character (pretty generic and cliche on the page).

What is so generic and cliche about the character in the comics? The movie Falcone had no family or anyone he cared tuppence about to interact with. We didn't see any real emotions from the character that tells us about him.

I have to agree with The Guard, Falcone in BB was a pretty generic gangster type bad guy. There was nothing about him that set him apart from other criminals of this type.

In the comics, we saw his conflicts and emotions with his sister, son, daughter, rival criminals etc.

 

[Carnotaur3]

What is so generic and cliche about the character in the comics? The movie Falcone had no family or anyone he cared tuppence about to interact with. We didn't see any real emotions from the character that tells us about him.

I have to agree with The Guard, Falcone in BB was a pretty generic gangster type bad guy. There was nothing about him that set him apart from other criminals of this type.

In the comics, we saw his conflicts an emotions with his sister, son, daughter, rival criminals etc.

For the final time, he isn't a major player. Should every character that comes from the comics have to be 100% fleshed out from the comics?

 

[gwynplaine]

What is so generic and cliche about the character in the comics? The movie Falcone had no family or anyone he cared tuppence about to interact with. We didn't see any real emotions from the character that tells us about him.

I have to agree with The Guard, Falcone in BB was a pretty generic gangster type bad guy. There was nothing about him that set him apart from other criminals of this type.

In the comics, we saw his conflicts with his sister, son, daughter, rival criminals etc.

I was talking about movie Falcone (script page). I agree with you comic book Falcone sounds like a richer character (honestly, I'm not that familiar with the character because I'm not too crazy about Tim Sales' Joker and I am all about the Joker t: .)

 

[The Joker]

For the final time, he isn't a major player.

He wasn't a major player in The Long Halloween, either. He was exactly what he was in BB, an element that was causing all the corruption in Gotham that Batman wanted to remove.

The only difference is that he was fleshed out in the comic books.

Should every character that comes from the comics have to be 100% fleshed out from the comics?

Of course not. That's not what I'm disputing. I'm saying he was more three dimensional in the comics than in Begins.

Likewise for Scarecrow.

 

[JokerCam]

Does anyone have a link to the BB script?

 

[The Guard]

Then perhaps you should enlighten us on what more you think should have happened with this two-bit character.

I think he should have acted like more than a brutish, impolite mob boss. It's pretty much that simple. My main issue with the portrayal of Carmine Falcone is the tone of the character and his bearing.

Wilkinson makes the character more than he is on the page.

No, he really doesn't. He pretty much plays exactly what's there, and the most basic elements of the character as he is written.

The characterization he gave them, the way the character looks around the room at the end of the scene, the way he handles the dialogue is what makes the character come to life in the scene.

I'm sorry, but did you just tell me that the mannerisms and movements an actor does are what makes a character come to life in a scene?

Duh.

But since you don't like Wilkinson's performance, that means nothing to you.

It's ok. It's just not what he's capable of. There was a chance to have this role be something very special, and it turned into another cliche mob boss.

I just remembered another scene where we learn that Falcone is a product of his own fear technique when Crane says that Ra's is coming to Gotham.

"He's coming to Gotham?"

It's such a small moment, but you see in Falcone's eyes that he feels like he's in trouble. So what does Falcone do? He plays nice again with Crane, offering to take up the job crane wants him to do.

Again, he's just playing what's written on the page. Wow. He's a frightened pawn who has bitten off more than he can chew. Another deviation from the character of the comics.

What is so generic and cliche about the character in the comics? The movie Falcone had no family or anyone he cared tuppence about to interact with. We didn't see any real emotions from the character that tells us about him.

It's not even that I want to know about him. I just don't want him acting like an impolite, brutish criminal.

I have to agree with The Guard, Falcone in BB was a pretty generic gangster type bad guy. There was nothing about him that set him apart from other criminals of this type.

That's pretty much my beef with it, yes.

In the comics, we saw his conflicts with his sister, son, daughter, rival criminals etc.

Again, it's not even that. It's that he acts like such an uneducated, rash-thinking, rude and cruel person. And that's just not Carmine Falcone. He's a very intelligent, cool headed and mostly rational person. And he doesn't tend to kick people when they're down. I didn't see that from the movie version.

He wasn't a major player in The Long Halloween, either. He was exactly what he was in BB, an element that was causing all the corruption in Gotham that Batman wanted to remove.

The only difference is that he was fleshed out in the comic books.

Exactly. He functions as more than just a plot point in the books. There's an actual character there, and a relevancy to Bruce Wayne's crusade against crime. He's not just "pure entrenched" evil, he's a very particular kind of it.

 

[ActuallyRobin]

imsdb is where it's at

 

[bkey]

What is so generic and cliche about the character in the comics? The movie Falcone had no family or anyone he cared tuppence about to interact with. We didn't see any real emotions from the character that tells us about him.

I have to agree with The Guard, Falcone in BB was a pretty generic gangster type bad guy. There was nothing about him that set him apart from other criminals of this type.

In the comics, we saw his conflicts and emotions with his sister, son, daughter, rival criminals etc.

Theres not enough time in the movie to fully flesh out Falcone and show his family conflicts, etc. If Falcone was the main villian, or if there was a Batman television series then it would probably be appropriate to explore this more in depth, but he wasn't. For the amount of screen time that he was given, and really was all that was necessary IMO, his part was great.

 

[The Joker]

I was talking about movie Falcone (script page). I agree with you comic book Falcone sounds like a richer character (honestly, I'm not that familiar with the character because I'm not too crazy about Tim Sales' Joker and I am all about the Joker t: .)

Gotcha'

Don't like Sale's big teeth Joker eh

Theres not enough time in the movie to fully flesh out Falcone and showe his family conflicts, etc. If Falcone was the main villian, or if there was a Batman television series then it would probably be appropriate to explore this more in depth, but he wasn't. For the amount of screen time that he was given, and really was all that was necessary IMO, his part was great.

Again, I'm not disputing that. I am saying the comic book counterpart of the character is alot more three dimensional and interesting.

Wilkinson was good with what he was given. But nothing extraordinary or special, IMO.

 

[gwynplaine]

Gotcha'

Don't like Sale's big teeth Joker eh



Again, I'm not disputing that. I am saying the comic book counterpart of the character is alot more three dimensional and interesting.

Wilkinson was good with what he was given. But nothing extraordinary or special, IMO.

Lol. Bingo !t: On the other hand, your avvy rocks.

 

[ActuallyRobin]

this thread needs to me shut before someone busts a blood vessel

 

[The Joker]

Lol. Bingo !t: On the other hand, your avvy rocks.

Thank you! So does yours.

Conrad Veidt in The Man who Laughs, right? The inspiration for Mistah' J

 

[gwynplaine]

Thank you! So does yours.

Conrad Veidt in The Man who Laughs, right? The inspiration for Mistah' J

Thank you. Conrad indeed.

 

[Carnotaur3]

I'm sorry, but did you just tell me that the mannerisms and movements an actor does are what makes a character come to life in a scene?

Duh.

Characterization is wholly dependent on how an actor interacts, moves, and delivers dialogue. Are you trying to be dense here?

 

[Carnotaur3]

Exactly. He functions as more than just a plot point in the books. There's an actual character there, and a relevancy to Bruce Wayne's crusade against crime. He's not just "pure entrenched" evil, he's a very particular kind of it.

I never got he was evil. The character in Begins isn't evil. He's just a selfish, money grubbing pick, with a bad philosophy on life.

 

[The Guard]

Misguided?

 

[ActuallyRobin]

He's a *****ebag that's what he is

 

[Carnotaur3]

Misguided?

Yes Falcone is... hopefully you aren't saying I am.

He's a misguided individual, probably grew up poor by the way he talked... as you said he was uneducated (but I don't thing he is), brash... yadda yadda... This is the Carmine Falcone of BB and I think you should judge him that way than comparing him to the comics.

Did you know the character Denzel Washington played in the recent film of American Gangster was at that time in the 70s (in real life mind you) uneducated and didn't even know how to count... yet he started this mob business with drugs and became one of the most power drugs lords in the united states. That character is as much like the Falcone character in BB as you could get. I don't think that character is as unintelligent as you say... but if you don't see my point by now I don't expect you to ever do so.

 

[The Guard]

Yes Falcone is... hopefully you aren't saying I am.

He's a misguided individual, probably grew up poor by the way he talked... as you said he was uneducated (but I don't thing he is), brash... yadda yadda... This is the Carmine Falcone of BB and I think you should judge him that way than comparing him to the comics.

I do judge him as he appears in the movie. I'm just saying...it's not a particularly faithful translation.

Did you know the character Denzel Washington played in the recent film of American Gangster was at that time in the 70s (in real life mind you) uneducated and didn't even know how to count... yet he started this mob business with drugs and became one of the most power drugs lords in the united states. That character is as much like the Falcone character in BB as you could get. I don't think that character is as unintelligent as you say... but if you don't see my point by now I don't expect you to ever do so.

Yes, I did know that. I've never seen criminal activity as intelligent, though I will admit that there have been some fairly innovative crime figures over the years. I don't see anything in BEGINS that would indicate Falcone's any more intelligent than the next criminal.

 

[Carnotaur3]

I do judge him as he appears in the movie. I'm just saying...it's not a particularly faithful translation.



Yes, I did know that. I've never seen criminal activity as intelligent, though I will admit that there have been some fairly innovative crime figures over the years. I don't see anything in BEGINS that would indicate Falcone's any more intelligent than the next criminal.

You grow up on the streets, you learn the streets and how you can manipulate others. And how he talked about "desperate" he made me understand where he was coming from... he was already giving me a history of himself.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

Elegant and well spoken. Except he was having a young man beat up, badmouthing his parents and pulling a gun on him. Oh, and when he spoke, he was struggling to come up with what to say.

"So don't...don't come down heah...with ya angah...tryin' ta' prove somethin' ta yasalf."

I have expected him to do that "Boss Nass" thing where he gets upset and wiggles his cheeks. Yeah. Real well spoken.

And, here you are, referring to the guy's goddamn accept! Here, I'll re-post the entire scene for you, straight from the transcript, and let's see how delightfully unintelligent, bland and narrow-minded Mister Falcone is:

Falcone:
Could've just sent a thank you note.

No gun? I'm insulted.

Bruce:
I didn't come here to thank you. I came here to show you that not everyone is Gotham is afraid of you.

Falcone:
Only those who know me, kid.

Look around you. You'll see two councilmen... a union official, couple off-duty cops... and a judge. Now I wouldn't have a second's hesitation in blowing your head off right here and right now, in front of them. That's power you can't buy -- that's the power of fear.

Bruce:
I'm not afraid of you.

Falcone:
Because you think you've got nothing to lose. But you haven't thought it through. You haven't thought about your lady friend down the DA's office -- you haven't thought about your old Butler... BANG!

People from your world have so much to lose. Now, you think 'cos your mommy and your daddy got shot, you know the ugly side of life but you don't. You've never tasted desperate -- you're a Bruce Wayne, the Prince of Gotham, you'd have to go a thousand miles to meet someone who doesn't know your name so don't come down here, with your anger, trying to prove something to yourself. Because you'll always fear... but you don't understand.

If anything -- it's the other way friggin' round! Falcone is coming off as the interesting character while Bruce is coming off as the "boring" character.

Way to go. Another poorly constructed argument to add to your endless collection.

I didn't say he was characterless, I said there's not much to him beyond "criminal", and that he didn't resemble his comic book counterpart much. I definitely never said he didn't contribute anything to the story. Show me where I said that. I just said he was "there".

Right, and you are basing Falcone's entire film adaptation on a few scenes? It absolutely beggars belief. You really have no idea why Falcone was included in the story, and you probably never will.

I haven't forgotten this at all. I think I've alluded to it or outright stated it a few times, now.

That's it -- you're unhappy because he's mean to Bruce. You're unhappy because he's got a dodgy, battle-hardened accent. You're unhappy because he sits down in a lower-leveled cafe.

Yet you continuously miss the entire point of Falcone's film adaptation, and you continue to base assumption on the film adaptation on nothing but a few two-minute scenes.

Do you know how ridiculous this looks from the outside looking in?

No, he was a crime figure who prompted interesting reactions in Bruce Wayne. Talking about the "powah of feahhh" and taking part in the assassination of someone, I'm sorry...that's just not interesting to me. It's pretty standard stuff.

And being nice, and not mocking Bruce's parents, is pretty "standard stuff", too, is it not?

THE LONG HALLOWEEN is not about Carmine Falcone. It's about Batman, Gordon and Dent. Falcone is a supporting character in it. And yes, I wanted to see Carmine Falcone act like more than a brutish impolite *******.

Well, put it one way: Falcone is one of the key characters throughout the story. Go figure.

No he didn't. He just made them the main villains. He focused the story itself on Batman, Gordon and Dent. Which TLH did you read?

If there was a "ROFL" emoticon -- now would be the time...

So...all that Falcone should be, to be a decent adaption, is his most basic element "crime boss", and us seeing him from Bruce's point of view. Like I say later on in this post, I can't help that you are easily satisifed with characters.

Yes, I am satisfied in how Nolan presented Falcone -- because I can UNDERSTAND the REASONING behind Falcone's portrayal.

It is YOU who CANNOT understand it.

And you are not getting that I fully understand the meaning of the character in BATMAN BEGINS. I just don't like his departure from the comic book nature of the character.

What departure? That he is mean to Bruce? That he mocks Bruce's parents death? Like I said, Nolan tends to play around with his character.

At the end of the day; Carmine Falcone was Carmine Falcone in Begins. He was an untouchable crime-lord; constantly evading arrest; and corrupting the city more and more with each passing day. Yet, you have an issue with his friggin' accent. Go figure.

No, as I have not studied "the film arts" (snicker) Like I said before, even if Bruce views Falcone as a "stock thug" (which I assure you, he doesn't, Batman doesn't underestimate his opponents), that is simply not the case.

And now you are tripping over your own toes -- or you no longer understand the argument at hand.

If we are seeing things from Bruce's point of view, then how are we, as an audience, going to VIEW Falcone? Do you not SEE the reasoning of the subjective shooting method? It purposefully BLOCKS OUT the persona of various character, but rather takes us to the CORE ROOTS of other character.

You really don't know anything about cinema.

What's not true? That Falcone in the comics is more than just a thug? Or that it's my opinion?

I'll gladly accept that Falcone is "more than just a thug" in the comics, but how do we know that, in Nolan's universe, he isn't "more than just a thug", either?

Again, I refer you back to Nolan's shooting methods, and how we are supposed to view Falcone as a thug, because that's what he is, DEEP DOWN.

That didn't look like a real respectable place to me. It looked like an underworld/mob hangout. It looked like a seedy restaurant in a bad part of town. And since they drove through a bad part of town to get there...

Appearances can be deceiving...

Seems to me as though every high-empowered person within the city hanged out there. Go figure.

And it wouldn't matter, because by that point, the story has made clear that Falcone is not a respectable gentleman. So any respectability is just lost. It's not shocking when he turns out to be a brutish *******.

"The story makes it clear"?

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Now it's MY turn to laugh myself silly.

So, again; you are basing Falcone's entire characterization on three or four scenes? You are, my friend, simply misguided.

I don't see an ounce of well spokenness, or politeness. I see a criminal who gets off on having people be afraid of him.

I didn't see Falcone trying to make Crane or Flash fear him...

So, maybe -- just maybe -- Falcone, in Nolan's universe, can be reasonable and laid-back at times?

Clothes mean nothing. He has no charm, he's a brutish egotistical criminal, right from his first words.

Doesn't seem like that in his conversation with Crane or Flash...

And the rest, the fact that he's in power, that's pretty much just your basic mob boss. His comic book nature is more than that.

Right, so he's also "in power" in TLH; so does that automatically imply that he is "your basic mob boss", too, then, I assume?

You keep coming back to this, as If I somehow don't get his purpose in the movie. I get it.

Stop winging, then.

So because he's not a prominent figure he has to be a complete cliche of criminality?

Oh, for the life of me...

Do you think that everyone who is not polite is a "cliche of criminality", because that's the impression I'm getting from reading this embarrassing "argument" of yours.

No, I didn't neccessarily want him to play a larger role, quit assuming things. I wanted him to be less cliche, and more like the Falcone I'm used to. A man who isn't just a "dirty thug", but is a more refined take on the mob boss, with more ties to the Wayne legacy, to Gotham's success or failure. Something beyond "Ha ha ha, I'm an evil crime boss who has taken power and no one can stop me, boogah boogah boogah".

And yet, if Falcone came across as some polite mob-boss, then how would that reflect on Gotham City? That would deeply affect the narrative in a negative way, because Rachel had been blabbering on for the last five minutes about how much of a c**t Falcone is.

For all we know, Falcone IS a more "refined" mob boss -- just not in the Wayne scene. Something to which you fail to understand.

A. So because Wayne sees Falcone, he has to be an obvious criminal?

Oh my God. That is so silly, and you have yet again displayed your inability to read correctly.

B. You say it would be pointless and forget that he DID show how Falcone was connected to the Wayne generation, or didn't you watch the movie?

This statement is funny on so many levels, because A) you've been saying that you wanted Falcone's move adaptation to be connected to the Wayne family, yet you go and say, yourself, that he IS connected to the Wayne family in Begins, and B) I'm happy to have Falcone connected to the Wayne family, BUT WE DIDN'T NEED IT TO BE A MASSIVE ISSUE. Hence why Nolan simply gave Falcone a bit of dialogue to establish that comic-book connection...

BECAUSE IT'S NOT IMPORTANT TO THE STORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is it that you think I am not seeing?

That Falcone may have been all the stuff you describe, just not in the Bruce Wayne scene.

"Ignorance is bliss, my friend..."

I'm arguing that he doesn't come across as the character from the comics, who has some measure of dignity. He comes across as a brutish, rude, egotistical thug.

Exactly.

He comes across as this in the Bruce Wayne scene. A minor three-minute piece, no less. That certainly isn't enough screen time to start basing assumptions on an entire characterization.

Why in the name of all that is holy do you think I do not get this?

Stop winging, then.

Because this is not enough to be a GOOD ADAPTION OF THE CHARACTER.

But it is the premise of the character. Go figure.

And you're basing this on...what, exactly? Well spoken? Well spoken people badmouth people's dead parents?

Falcone bad-mouths Bruce's parents because he's in the position to.

What's he got to lose, right? He can do whatever the hell he wants.

"Power corrupts"...

Yes, it sounds like every cliche mob boss character ever created. Thankfully Falcone has something in the comics to distance himself from that cliche. Just not in the movies.

And who's to say that a "cliche" mob boss is a bad thing? Seemed to work well in "Goodfellas"...

And, to be frank, you are basing this "cliche mob boss" thing on one scene. Once again; go figure.

True. Hey, let's argue whether or not it was ok for Batman to kill in BATMAN, given the "context of the story".

Learn to read between the lines. Instead of clarifying things you don't understand about statements I've made, you jump to conclusions about what I mean.

Eh, when did Batman kill someone?

"Have you watched Batman Begins?"

And we come back to "You just don't get it, do you?" Because, after all, he's so "brilliantly" placed in the story. We simpletons simply wouldn't understand. No, you have to study "film arts" to understand something like the representation of entrenched evil and it's thematic relevance to the film.

Touchy.

Why would you think I don't understand this? I get it. The man's evil, so Nolan shows him being evil. That's shallow. That's the most shallow and unsubtle way to portray evil that I know.

Actually, Nolan doesn't show him just being "evil". There are other scenes starring Falcone, and he doesn't come across "evil" in those scenes. He actually comes across as a pretty believable character.

There's only one resulting scene. The scene between Bruce and Falcone. It's only difficult to grasp because you fail to grasp it. But at least you're starting to ask for clarification now, rather than jumping to massive conclusions.

Right, and I'm being given a pep talk about "grasping" things by the biggest point-misser in the universe!

So because you thought the scene was brilliant, everyone should?

You want my opinion -- you're getting it.

Yes. Do you know what "accurate adaption" and "not resorting to cliche methods of elaborating on a character's traits" is?

No, that's just you over-exaggerating. I saw Carmine Falcone in Begins. I saw him for what he really is. I saw him through Bruce Wayne's point of view.

You didn't, because you were too busy crying because he didn't shake Bruce's hands and offer his condolences about his parents.

Wow. How "unique" a character. Totally worth pulling him out the comics if that's all we get out of it. But...if you're easily satisifed, you're easily satisifed.

Actually, the Carmine Falcone characterization, in of itself, is unique to the Batman universe, because there are no other characters who are renowned for running a criminal empire.

You've stepped over your own toes again.

Then you're easily satisifed. Don't know what to tell you.

Seems like most people are easily satisfied, then, because everyone is disagreeing with you...

Yes. Its mean simply "He was a shadow of himself from the comics". I'm sorry that you cannot figure out what that means. Your issue, not mine.

This is a nice tactic you do. Quote someone asking a rhetorical question, but then purposefully miss the assessment that transpires AFTER the rhetorical question.

You are so simple.

No, and here you go jumping to conclusions again. It has nothing to do with his screentime. It has to do with "Falcone didn't act like he does in the comics". He barely resembled his comic book counterpart.

Yes, he did. He was a corrupt crime-lord who, when crossed, wasn't a very nice person.

Go figure.

You're welcome to believe he was extremely interesting. You may be easily satisfied. You may like to be beat over the head with themes and dialogue. I prefer a bit of subtlety in characters. You know, subtley to the point where evil characters aren't always doing overtly evil and thuggish and "mean" things to show who they are as people underneath.

Right, and when was Falcone ever doing overtly evil and thuggish and means things? That was in one scene...

Go figure.

Show me where I said that. Show me.

Eh? Isn't this your argument -- that you are disappointed because Falcone's connection to the Wayne family wasn't tied more into the story and that he wasn't interesting enough? Jesus -- you are even starting to confuse yourself.

No, how can I dispute something that clearly happened? I'm saying Falcone was a pushover in the movie, compared to his portrayal in the comics. I'm not sure that can really even be argued. He got taken down in a drug bust on one of Batman's first nights out, as opposed to Batman not being able to touch him personally in the comics until Two-Face more or less assassinated him.

And since when was it a God-given right that Falcone HAS TO BE TAKEN DOWN IN AT LEAST A MONTH?

Show me this all-encompassing truth.

Do you know why Nolan had Batman take Falcone down in a week? And, why would Batman's taking down of Falcone, in a week, be such an impossibility for someone as smart and as tough as Batman? And let's just forget the fact that Bruce risked his own life and devoted seven years to studying crime just to take down Falcone on that one, cold night...

Go figure.

So just because I can recognize it's difference from the comics, I don't understand it? Whatever.

I suppose you'd be ok with Batman taking down The Joker in the first 20 minutes of THE DARK KNIGHT and The Joker being out of the story for all intents and purposes if it made sense in the narrative.

No, because the Joker is the primary villain in TDK.

Falcone wasn't the primary villain in BB. He was just a sub-plot, which you can't seem to understand due to your fictional knowledge of cinema.

So because he's reading a paper in a restaurant, I'm supposed to ignore his brutish, impolite manner of speech and treatment of Bruce?

Bruce insulted Falcone.

Don't say your against that, too, as well, then?

Yes. That is my issue with the character. He does not act like the character from the comics. Instead, it appears that they invented a new personality for Carmine Falcone. Does it work in the context of the movie? Sure. But that isn't Carmine Falcone any more than Halle Berry was an accurate Catwoman.

No, they really didn't invent a new personality. I refer you to the other scenes that Falcone starred in. He was pretty polite and conversational to both Flass and Crane... but that seems to have whooshed straight over your head...

Not unless you force it in that direction. I recognize that Nolan changed the character from the comics, and I don't appreciate it.

Well you brought it up. Duh...

Yeah, he never once came across as "respectable". Not once.

Seemed pretty respectable to Crane and Flass at times. You must have much higher standards than me.

Show me proof that I don't get it. You seem to think that because I don't like how Falcone was portrayed in relation to the source material that I somehow don't understand Nolan's intentions and the character's use in the film. These two things are not tied together. I can clearly understand the meaning of something, and still not like the nature of it.

No, you think you know. There is a difference, but you probably won't be able to grasp that concept, either...

He's a basic crime boss. Thuggish, brutish and impolite.

...in one scene.

Seems to me like you have an issue with his accent. Cool argument.

Because we didn't get to see anything that would seperate him from the average crime boss character.

And WTF would accomplish this separation you speak of? Give me an example, and I'll give you an answer.

Once again, I fully understand where Nolan took the character (cough, cliche, cough).

And this response, in of itself, shows that you DON'T know where Nolan took the character.

Falcone's speech to Bruce was cliche, or was it tied into the story? Make up your mind, but don't trip over your own toes.

You're right. I don't find the portrayal of Gordon in BATMAN BEGINS particularly interesting, either. Although I will say he's a damn sight closer to his comic book counterpart than Falcone is.

You do realize that you have just destroyed your own argument, don't you?

Let me ask you something: why do you think that Gordon was more closer to his comic-book "counterpart"? I'll tell you: SCREEN-TIME.

With more screen-time, Falcone may have been a little bit more respectful and "refined"; but what kind of narrative purpose would that serve, other than to please the legendary TheGuard?

See it yet....?

 

[Mr. Superhero]

Probably. But again, Alfred actually resembled his comic book counterpart (in terms of character, at least.

Due mainly to the amount of screen time he had.

No doubt you will continue to ignore this.

Depends. But yes, you could make that argument on some level. Of course, I could make the counter argument that at least Bruce, Alfred and Gordon had character things that made them resemble closely their comic book counterparts. Falcone? Not so much.

And with each quote you put one more crack in your own, fallacious argument.

I've been saying all along that Falcone may have matched your description given more screen time -- just that we didn't need to see that side of the character, because it wasn't important to the narrative.

You are just so totally wrong here. Quite fun, actually.

No, he pulled the story importance. He didn't bring an ounce of Falcone's character or an ounce of Falcone's actual relavant story from the comics.

Okay, I'm gunna' play ball.

Here's a quote from TLH:

FALCONE
Milos, get Mr. Maroni here a drink.

Hmm, doesn't Falcone pass Flass a drink in Begins?

FALCONE
The rest of you, spread the word. One millions for either of them, the Bat or... the cat.

Hmm, I can certainly imagine Wilkinson's Falcone saying this. 'Dunno about you...

Shall I continue, or do you want me to stop destroying your argument?

The Falcone in the movie was basically a cinematic crime boss, and bore very little resemblance characterwise, speechwise, relevance-wise or tonewise to the Falcone of the comics.

I disagree, for the reasons above.

The problem is that this is not my whole argument. You keep getting lost in sub arguments because you keep making counter points to defend Nolan's vision rather than addressing my actual statements. My argument is that just taking the basics of a character and giving him a new personality and meaning to the Bat mythos is not sufficient to say it's a good adaption of the character from the comics. It's pretty much that simple. Gordon's role, while thin, was related to his role in the comics. So was his tone and character and themes. Ditto Bruce, Batman, and even Alfred, for the most part. Falcone? Not so much, he was just a crime boss, and he's more than that in the comic books.

Right, and Falcone's tone was all wrong, because he had ONE SCENE that dis-pleased you, yes?

Quite pathetic, really...

Well, at least part of his...no, not even that. He was just a name and a cliche.

"One million for either the Bat or the Cat."

Sounds just as "cliche" to me...

Once again, THE LONG HALLOWEEN is not based on Carmine Falcone. So you think...that just because he's on film...he has to act like a brutish thug, and not like Carmine Falcone? Ok.

He acts EXACTLY HOW CARMINE FALCONE WOULD, because in TLH, he is willing to give someone a million dollars for killing both Batman and Catwoman.

THAT'S HOW ANGRY AND HATEFUL THIS CHARACTER IS!!!

PWNED!!!

Nope. That describes every "cop who helps a vigilante" character ever created. That isn't Gordon's core.

I am describing the synopsis of the character.

Nope. Again, too shallow. Too thin.

I am describing the synopsis of the character -- not his persona, silly.

Nope. You seem to think that "core" means "most basic element of a character".

Core means what you want it to mean.

At least I'm being somewhat polite about it. And not resorting to childish cursing and veiled insults on a message board.

Walk away, then.

No, this part is just simple fact. Falcone being tied to the murder of Joe Chill, denying Bruce of his revenge and pissing him off to the point where he goes overseas to learn how to fight injustice...this is not something Falcone did in the comics. It's invented for the movie. Again, this is just simple fact.

The Joker didn't apply make-up in the comics.

Doesn't mean it's not for the better, now, does it?

It worked for me, too, and I've never said it didn't. It just didn't resemble the Carmine Falcone I know very much.

Do you want me to pull more quotes from The Long Halloween?

It's sitting here, right in front of me.

Oh, it was pretty contrived. The man who causes all the crime in Gotham just happening to end up sharing a cell with the man who killed Bruce Wayne's parents. Yeah. Nothing contrived about that.

OH NOES!!!!!!(@(@!!! THE CHARACTER IS COMPLETELY DESTROYED!!(@(!(!

I can't even begin to explain how pathetic your argument is getting.

As a matter of fact it does sound like a familiar concept. It sounds like a cliche crime boss. I fail to see how the use of cliche is "genius". Maybe you can help me out there.

And your statement about never being attached to any of the crimes is just bunk. Everyone knew his ties to organized crime. Rachel knew right away, and so did her boss. She even says outright "Everyone knows he does it, but he keeps the bad people rich and the good people scared".

...and there are various times in TLH when Falcone comes across as a "clihe mob boss".

Don't know what to tell you. I prefer seeing Tom Wilkenson not saddled with heavy handed dialogue.

I thought the dialogue was fine, as do many others, who disagree with you, it would seem.

This is a personal issue for you. You are in denial.

Oh, you mean the uber cliche "Pissing off the hero by insulting his parents or friends" moment. Yeah. That would totally make Bruce angry. Since, you know, Bruce was there and knew his father didn't beg like a dog. But whatever. Bruce is so "out of control" it's bound to piss him off.

"Raaaaaar! I'm mad! Hold me back! Hold me back!"

No, Bruce's dad didn't beg like a dog -- but I'd still be insulted if someone called my mum a man.

Go figure.

Immensely.

You should be embarrassed, because you am going to prove you wrong.

No, in fact he doesn't. Where does he seem to be benefitting the city on any level?

How do we know, right? For all we know, people might assume that he is benefiting the city, hence why he is partially UNTOUCHABLE.

What the hell are you talking about? It was pretty clear that people knew he was a crime lord.

Who are "people"?

Every single person residing within the city?

 

[StylishHokie21]

Damn Mr. Superhero....did you quote all of Guards posts?

 

[ActuallyRobin]

Damn Mr. Superhero....did you quote all of Guards posts?

it's a mutual love/hate thing