Wonder Woman 1984 SPOILER Review Thread

Discussion in 'Wonder Woman 1984' started by FeedOnATreeFrog, Dec 16, 2020.

  1. Micromind Registered

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    Cathy Yan, who directed Birds of Prey had hired the stunt team who directed John Wick movie for one of their action scenes, Patty will need somone like them or maybe the stunt team of Zack Snyder (Damon Caro) who worked with her in the first WW movie.
     
  2. Micromind Registered

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    Steve can cease to exist but still pay the price if something bad happens to someone he loves.
     
  3. xenos5 Registered

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    Max was able to subvert the wish cost of him getting sicker the more wishes he granted by taking people's life force as their wish prices.

    So it's not impossible to subvert the costs. And like I said in my other response if Steve wished for everything back to normal than he would be dead again. The wish prices always specifically target the one who made the wish, so with him gone the wish would either target him in the afterlife or no one.

    It was never established if someone dies as a result of their wish price that anyone else would pay the price in their stead.

    How? It always directly targeted the person who made the wish only taking something away from them specifically. There was never an instance where a wish price was paid by someone else to inflict emotional damage on the one who made the wish if that's what you're implying.
     
  4. UncleSam1776 Registered

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    It wasn't just one scene. Chad Stahelski's stunt team 87Eleven was always part of the full Birds of Prey production. It was actually Walter Hamada who later brought in Chad Stahelski himself to oversee second unit photography to beef up the action scenes in reshoots as WB weren't happy with how things were going. It's easy to see which actions scenes were directed by him and which were directed by Yan.
     
  5. kguillou Registered

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    I’m assuming the police station set piece was Chad right?
     
  6. fan4stic Registered

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    Max still has to grant the wish. In the movie, his son wishes for something while touching him and he doesn't want to do it, and he doesn't.
     
  7. Prison Mike Don't drop the soap!

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    What exactly was the “punishment” for Barbara’s first wish?
     
  8. Closerframe Registered

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    Every man she encounters becomes a sexual predator.
     
  9. Bren Forevernoob

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    Damn that actually could be a thing! Haha
     
  10. fan4stic Registered

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    While the movie has Diana speak on her losing her caring and such, I saw it as the power corrupting her, in that she abuses it.

    I don't think many are predatory towards her, except that one guy outright like that, who I think does that before and after.
     
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  11. TheGDBatman Registered

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    If I was to summarize this movie, it would be by saying "it was fine". I felt like it had a lot of potential, but some of the writing left a poor taste in my mouth. I know some people had issues with the wishing stone, etc, but I actually enjoyed how different of an antagonist that was. It also gave me a very 80's vibe. If anything, I felt the writing was weak in the following areas:

    - some plot conveniences (the plane, Max's plane tickets, etc).
    - the tone is somewhat jarring compared to the first movie. I love the 80's tone as a whole, but it feels like they almost leaned too much into it.
    - not enough build-up for Cheetah
    - some mediocre line delivery (Diana "I'll never love again")
    - meh action (some of the effects in the first Amazon scene where they're lassoing around were pretty weak, Cheetah fight scene was ironically fast).
    - Diana getting her lasso around Max's ankle (did I miss something or was this one of those FOOLED YOU moments that movies pull?).
    - the mall scene (too much cheese for myself, personally, even though it fit the vibe they wanted)

    What did I enjoy?
    - movie has a ton of heart and optimism
    - loved the aesthetics and colours in the movie
    - some people criticize Pascal, but I loved his performance
    - hints of enjoyable action
    - the scene were Diana walks away from Steve, wishes him away, and then takes off into the sky and learns to fly was fantastic. Call it convenient or whatever, but man, did that scene hit me right in the feels. I thought it perfectly captured the emotion of what WW was going through.

    Very hit and miss movie for me. I really do think that they should have kept the original writer on instead of leaving it solely to Patty and Geoff Johns. I'd probably rate this a 6.5/10 if I had to assign a score. An enjoyable movie that is ultimately weighed down by a number of problems.
     
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  12. The Shape In the shadows

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    She clearly became unhinged and obsessed with keeping her power, to the point of hurting other people and fighting against her only "friend".
     
  13. TheScarecrow Registered

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    I thought it was the loss of humanity? Which she fully lost when she made the second wish?
     
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  14. BoredGuy Never Did a Popular Thing

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    Finally got around to watching this and... wow, just wow.

    to say this was a step down from WW1 is like saying batman & robin was just a step down from the Burton films. I cant remember the last time I almost turned a movie off in anger after 20 minutes over how bad it was.

    Wiig was good-ish, and Gal and Pine’s chemistry is always great, but I wasnt feelin Pascal’s caricature of a villain either. Things improved, but never came anywhere near the heights of the first film.

    And can we now, please, definitively, leave the 80’s in the f***ing past??? It was a garish and cheese-filled decade whose only purpose is to evoke nostalgic chuckles. The outfits and hair are distracting, and it always overwhelms the production design of any film set within it.

    5/10... still better than any of Snyders movies.. but not by much
     
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  15. Pearls Registered

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    The constructive Criticism post: what went wrong in WW84 compared to the First WW Movie, and how to fix it for WW3:

    Let's start with WW's character herself. In the first film her main trait is Compassion. She leaves the comfort of her island out of compassion, to save mankind. She has compassion on all the misery she sees. She walks across No Man's Land out of compassion for the woman in the trench who's village has been captured. She has so much compassion from start to finish that her team of companions (even Steve) tell her, "No , Diana, that's not what we're here for (stay on mission!)" and her famous line: "It's what *I'm* here to do." To be compassionate and to kick butt for compassion's sake.

    Compare WW84: Diana is all business, staying on mission; compassion is missing in action. Sure, she helps Barbara pick up her papers, but when asked to go to lunch (by a clearly troubled Barabara who obviously "needs a lot of help" personally) the first thing out of Diana's mouth is a courteous refusal. When they do go out, Diana is plenty cool, and we can not imagine her ever going out with Barbara again. And her future interactions with Barbara are all business: "Get me that report." Diana interrupts Barbara's team meeting and chews her out in her office. So, not a lot of compassion by Diana for Barbara. When she electrocutes her, she says, "I'm so sorry," which, I guess, is the compassionate way to electrocute somebody.

    Can we find compassion in Diana's relationship with Maxwell? She clearly despises him from the start, and lectures him at the end - or maybe she wasn't even talking to him.

    Compassion toward Steve? She wished him back to her (pulling him from a place where he might have been happier), put him in another man's body (nice thing to do?), and brought weakness upon herself, which clearly troubles Steve. She finally listens to him when she sends him back. Love - yes. But compassion for Steve? No, it was all about her own desire.

    So, who else does Diana have a relationship with in the film? Mankind? Ok, she gives up the love of her life so she can keep on saving the world. But we never really see that face of compassion like when she was looking at the wounded soldiers coming back from WWI, or the misery in the field, or looking down from the sniper tower on the people below, or staggering through the village which was gassed. Gal has the face of compassion, but we did not see it in WW84.

    So, for the third film - and I hope Patti gets the chance to make it because we know she can make a great film - the core needs to be a compassionate Wonder Woman. That's what we loved about the first movie. That's what's missing in the sequel.

    Now, maybe some will say compassion was just WW's naivete, and she has grown out of that and become cynical and business like, just like the rest of us. I say: no. She has wised up a lot about men and ice cream, but she will always be the heart of the super hero world. That's not naivete, it's who she is. It's "what she is here to do."
     
    #665 Pearls, Jan 6, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
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  16. Mysteryman Registered

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    Okay, how is it exactly that Diana is wiser about ICE CREAM? Does she prefer DOUBLE SCOOPS now?
     
  17. Pearls Registered

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    I just mean we no longer expect her to be amazed at ice cream or our Western culture after living in it for so long. But yes, it would be nice to retain that sense of wonder - at the beauty of fireworks, of a child's drawing, of the feel of air rushing through her fingers. Wonder Woman should remind us of the wonders all around us by her appreciation of them.

    She showed us her "wonder" in the flying scenes, and that was something WW84 got right. There should be like a check list of things we expect to see in a WW movie, and one of them is definitely her being wonder-struck by something simple, whether it is a baby's cry or the rush of air through her hands. It reminds us that there is wonder all around us.

    Another checklist item is her beholding misery, and being moved to compassion (and usually kicking butt immediately afterward) as posted above.

    These are the kinds of things unique to WW which we do not necessarily expect from any other superhero. And without them, she ends up being very much just like any other superhero.

    What else do we expect to see in a WW movie?

    She needs to be vulnerable. That's why every Superman movie must have some kryptonite, because an invulnerable superhero is boring. WW's vulnerability in the first movie was her ignorance and naivete. In the second it was her love for Steve which made her ok with losing her powers. I was so happy to see when she started to bleed during the car chase because it showed she had some skin in the game and was not just a woman of steel. Maybe WW3 will include WW's classic Achilles' heel: forging her bracelets together takes away all her powers.

    Speaking of which, I wish WW84 had taken her weakness to its furthest point, so she became just a regular (well trained Amazon) woman. Revisit the mall scene in the second half of the movie, but this time as she tries to do her stuff, she is failing at everything, and she jumps over a ledge and ends up falling in a potted plant. The last bad guy standing approaches her for the coup de grâce, and she is saved only by Steve Trevor taking out the baddie. He scolds her as he helps her away from the scene, "Look, if you want us to live out this strange romance, we'll find some place to live in peace. But if you want to keep saving the world, you're going to have to do it without me, Diana. You're going to have to let me go."

    In the first film she reached her low point when Ares wrapped her in metal and pinned her to the tarmac, but then she saw Steve's plane explode and went on her heroic rampage, tearing up the enemy base from one side to the other in a fiery blaze while Ares cheered her on. In WW84 we see her limping along, but not quite rock bottom. She abandons Steve beside some building (couldn't this have been staged a little better, somewhere more meaningful, maybe her apartment, or under a plane at the Smithsonian? It's like proposing to someone on the side of a building - why stage a memorable event there?).

    Anyway, after she leaves him we expect her to go on a heroic rampage, but instead she flies in circles until she gets to her apartment where she suits up in the golden armor, and continues her flight to the broadcast island, where she defeats Cheetah not by her powers, but by an electric wire (something we might expect Steve Trevor to use, but not a superhero), and similarly she does not overpower Maxwell, but uses persuasion. So we never see that heroic rampage with her full force. And that is something we do expect to see in every superhero movie. WW84 was all set up for the big moment, and then just flew in circles.

    And lastly, we do expect to see Chris Pine in every WW movie. I almost think he adds more than WW does. Gadot does great non-verbal acting with her facial expressions and body language (she's really fabulous in that regard) but her line delivery is as robotic as Schwarzenegger. Pine is an actor of the word; just hearing his voice coming through another actor's lips is enough to steal any scene. So Chris and Gal work great together, and frankly he saves her in every scene, dialog-wise.

    I don't care how he comes back - via a wishing stone, or a body-swap or just materializing out of thin air, or even a ghost memory at her side. Just promise not to retcon the original movie and rob him of his heroic death.

    And if you throw all those ingredients into a WW movie, you've got a pretty good recipe for success.

    Checklist score:
    First film:
    Compassion - check!
    Wonder - check!
    Vulnerable to rock bottom - check!
    Heroic rampage - check!
    Pine - check!

    WW84:
    Compassion - meh
    Wonder - check (one scene)
    Vulnerable (to a point)
    Heroic rampage - meh
    Pine - check!

    So you can see how WW84 missed some of the beats and this pretty accurately reflects the audience reaction.

    Finally, make a movie about something you love. Patty loves Wonder Woman, and the first film was all about her. Patty apparently hates the 80's (thinks it was a time of greed when everybody's wish stank) and WW84 is two and half hours of loathing the 80's. That's a lot of negativity for people to sit through. It's a powerful story about a man and his son and a wishing stone, and Wonder Woman is just a tangential subplot. The story could easily stand on its own without Wonder Woman in it at all. So next time, think about what you love most, and make a movie about that, and share your love and enthusiasm with the audience.
     
    #667 Pearls, Jan 7, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
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  18. Flash525 The Scarlet Messenger

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    Yes, because with double scoops you can have two flavours. :D:
     
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  19. Mysteryman Registered

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    That is what I love about this thread, WE BREAK DOWN THE IMPORTANT ISSUES!
     
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  20. Pearls Registered

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    When I mess up, I like to think "how could I have done that better" so I can do better next time. And so I can't stop thinking, what would have made WW84 a great movie?

    So here's my Backseat Director's cut.

    After the mall scene we see Wonder Woman on the roof of the mall, cooling off after her skirmish, looking out over the city. She spies a playground where some kids are bullying Maxwell's son (mind you, we have not met Maxwell nor his son yet, so this is his intro). The bullies taunt him, "Your dad's a loser." "Is not." "Is too." "Is not!" "Loser, loser" they chant, starting to push him around. "Go away." "We don't hang out with losers anyway." And they leave, victorious. Wonder Woman looks down on the scene with the face of concerned compassion. The boy wipes his eyes, and *thud* Wonder Woman lands behind him. "Are you alright?" "You're too late. Why didn't you come earlier?" "I knew you could handle it." "No I couldn't." She scoops him up, eye to eye. "Spunk." "They called my father a loser." "Your father's not a loser, I'm sure." "Maybe he is." "A daddy is a great man," she says. "Never forget that." and she sets him down. He wipes his eyes again "I don't know." and he looks around, but she has vanished.

    There, now Wonder Woman is part of the Father-Son story arc, and when the son embraces his father at the end, she gets some of the credit in the mind of the audience.

    Next alteration, in the scene(s) with Diana and Maxwell, instead of treating him like "You're a jerk and I wish you weren't here" her attitude should be strangely grave and concerned, like "My friend, you have a terminal disease and you will need to suffer much and make great sacrifice, but you can overcome this." No change to her lines, just a change in her attitude. Like, she mutters absently about the TV she does not have, but her mind and heart are just full of overwhelming concern for this man. She can't say it to him, but it is all over her face.

    Ok, when Barbara spills her papers, Diana immediately says yes to lunch. Better still, Diana invites her to lunch first. At lunch she is alot warmer and funnier and we sense these too oddballs could quickly become best buds.

    Of course, trim out all the 80's loathing: the shoplifting girls, the whole mall intro with the butts waving in the air and the butt staring. Cut the fashion jokes (Steve's wardrobe scene is just not funny) and all the gratuitous negativity, especially those disturbing graphics during WW's end speech.

    When Maxwell asks Reagan for his wish it goes like this, "Sir, what do you wish for?" "I wish... (with a twinkle in his eye) everyone was a Republican." Maxwell turns around the room. "And you general, what do you wish for?" "More nukes!" declares Alexander Haig. "More nukes...more Republicans, and in return - I want to be treated as a foreign country (etc)."

    Yeah, and during the Museum fundraiser, none of the guys are preying upon Gal, because that is totally unrealistic anyway. ;)

    OK, we want to revisit the mall scene in the second half and demonstrate just how powerless WW has become. And then after she leaves Steve (they breakup under an elm on the Washington Mall next to the reflecting pool, since it's such a more romantic setting) she runs off heart broken and takes flight. We let her fly in wonder for a bit as she feels the wind in her hands, and then comes the big display of power. She is flying on her back, dreamily, when a jet screams right by her, breaking her concentration and sending her falling to the ground, where she barely manages to make a stylish landing. She looks up and sees a dogfight forming in the sky, sirens are going off in the city, and people are running for shelter in fear. "Russians are attacking!" And she looks around her with compassion, and then leaps into the sky.

    Yes, it is the big battle in DC the audience was expecting. WW is lassoing jets and riding rocket missiles, and landing on jet windshields, and Maxwell comes on the jet dashboard screen and says, "Testing, testing, this is Maxwell Lord testing the new broadcast system on the military network. Can you hear me? What do you wish for today?" "I wish I could get this butt off of my windshield!" says the exasperated pilot, trying to see around WW who is sitting on his windshield at the moment. And she is gone. And she is inside the jet sitting directly behind him. "Get me out of here!" she says. "Oh my gosh, it got even worse," he says. WW starts banging on the ceiling to get out. "Hey stop that!" he says. "Can't you eject me out of here or something?" she asks. "Where's your parachute; you've obviously never been in a jet before." "I was in one yesterday, and it was fine." "Yeah, I'd love to see that." "We were invisible." *Enemy missile has locked on. Execute evasive maneuvers* says the jet voice assistant. "We were invisible - that's it!" and Wonder Woman starts rubbing her hands together. "What are you doing back there?" as he twists the jet into a corkscrew. "Making us invisible," and she leans forward over him to plant her hand on the dashboard. "Woah! Don't touch anything up here!" he warns. "I have to make us invisible!" "Would you get back in your seat!" But she slams her palm on the dash. "That's the Eject button!!" and they both go shooting out of the jet as it blows up from the missile, and he comes floating down in his parachute, and Wonder Woman flies up to chat with him in mid air, "Are you alright?" "Please - stay away from me. I'm going to be fine. I was fine. Until you came. Now, if you would, I wish you would leave me alone" "As you wish." as they are drifting downwards. And his parachute catches on the top point of the Washington Monument and he is left dangling there. "A little help here!" "Careful what you wish for," and she leaves him with a wink. We see his face distraught and frustrated, and then terrified as he starts to slide off the monument and plummet below. But she swoops in to catch him, as though he were a bride in her arms being carried across the threshold, and she lands with him. "I love you!" he says jubilantly, taking her face in his hands for a big kiss. And she is like, O my. And sticks up her hand to hold up a falling jet which lands on them. "Wow! You can come by any time," he says. And she is kind of embarrassed and confused/flustered about the whole thing and makes an abrupt exit with an "I gotta go!" and she is up in the air to finish the dogfight.

    So yeah, mega action, hilarious hijinx, and a big payoff for all the action fans. In many ways, it is the climax of the film. Then comes the denouement - tying up the loose ends, beating Cheetah, lecturing Maxwell, reuniting father and son.

    And for the final scene with the body swap guy, we're going for something a bit more punchy than Hallmark. She and he trade banalities about his wardrobe. "My friends say I look unfashionable." "You look good. I think you always look good. I've seen you naked." "Thanks. What? What did you say." "I said I've seen you naked." "For a moment I thought you said - " "That's what I said." "Huh??" "This summer. During your missing days. I was with you, well not really you, but my old friend - lover...it's complicated." "I'm sorry, I'm.. outta here," as he makes his exit, somewhat horrified. She calls after him, "I think I left my lipstick in your bed - if you get a chance, to find it... you could give it back to me," but he is out of earshot and picking up his pace walking away in a hurry. "You have a big birthmark on your butt!" she calls, but all for naught. She plants her palm on her forehead and says to herself, "Well that went well, Diana. And that is why you will never love again." And then Lynda Carter gives her a big hug from behind and says to her, "Don't worry, Diana, it will all go well." "Who are you?" "I'm you, 30 years from now. It's a time travel thing." "I look good." "You will love again." "This guy?" "Not him," as Lynda starts to walk away, as though something is up, in her storyline. "With who? Where do I find him?" calls Diana. "Steve. It's always Steve," calls back Lynda as she hurries away on her own story. "OH my goodness, are you serious? That would be, like a wish come true. A good wish. Not a, not...oh my...that's...wonderful," and she watches a balloon float away as she thinks of what will be.

    So yeah, a lot more fun. Like the 80's.

    Give her a relationship with the son. Turn her relationship with Maxwell into one of compassion, give her a friendship with Barbara, enjoy the 80's, and heal the movie.
     
    #670 Pearls, Jan 9, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
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  21. jfurioso Mistake to be avoided

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    Reading these reviews Ive realized that maybe some of my discomfort at the movie was indeed that while it was not exactly ridiculing the 80s, it was not that affectionate nostalgia, either, playing up the silly and dated. And the 80s were pretty great for me, so I may be reacting personally!
     
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  22. Adder Registered

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    Arguably the worst Dceu movie, and that's saying something.
     
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  23. jignat Registered

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    I finally got to see Wonder Woman 1984 in the theatre. Only 3 peeps in there thankfully.

    Pros:
    Gals' performance is great

    The opening Themyscira sequence

    Chemistry between Steve and Diana

    Music


    Cons:

    The film is 2hr 25 min without credits. Too long for a non team movie. There are stretches where the plot doesn't keep your interest.

    The dreamstone was alluded to being one of the Gods, but I think they should have a flashback or an extra exposition scene. The scene where they go to the Indian guy w/dreads didnt work for me. Also, the rules governing it are too wacky and ill defined. Steve inhabiting that guy's body was weird as is the ever changing rules of Lord's powers.

    This film didnt do a wonderful job with Cheetah imo. Wig is decent but the nerdy/clumsy character not wanting to be nerdy/clumsy feels like Jim carrey Riddler/Jamie foxx Electro. When she finally is in "beast mode" , it was a letdown. The scene is at night (to hide cgi) and feels more like an excuse to have a physical fight. the enmity between her and Diana is weak. Cheetah should have been the primary villain in this film, not the "balrog"

    There are few action scenes throughout. They are ok, but not as breathtaking as the No man land or training/beach invasion from WW 1.
    Also, she doesnt use a sword or shield at all in this movie.

    This movie wants to be emotionally resonant like the first one, but it doesnt earn it. When Steve dies again due to Diana revoking the wish, I didnt feel anything. When Max finds his son at the end, I didnt feel much. When seeing the trailer, I thought I would feel a lot more sympathetic for Cheetah during her transformation or they would somehow have Diana play a more direct role in her metamorphosis, but nah. Also, they show cheetah as human at the end, but I seriously doubt Barbara would actively revoke her wish. Also, the movie ends abruptly. So both villains get away scot free and Lord has no ill effects despite shown to have deteriorating health?

    Overall: Just ok, due to Gal and some other bits, but a significant decline compared to the first one.
    7/10
    WW (2017) - 8.5/10
     
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  24. Mysteryman Registered

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    Sounds like you thought it was pretty good.
    There is only a point and a half difference between the the two reviews.
     
  25. jignat Registered

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    Yeah. I'm a pretty forgiving guy compared to many others.

    7 is the lowest level of "good" on my personal scale.
    IMO the first film is my favorite post Nolan DC comics movie,so I was really excited for this sequel.
     
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