Worst Moments in Comic Books

[Venom.Symbiote]

The worst moment im Marvel Comic History is In Secret Wars #8.

The Hulk (with the mind of Banner) discovers a machine that can create any costume, hence Thors new Cape and hat. But he said it while wearing his torn purple pants. If he is smart wouldn't he have gotten himself a costume?

He kept them because they fit really nice and chicks dig em.

 

[Zev]

Hey kids, can you spot the difference between these two "Civil War" panels?

You can? Congratulations, you're a better editor than anyone working at Marvel!

What makes it worse is that this is Amazing Spider-Man, Marvel's flagship title, and Civil War, Marvel's big blockbuster event. But I guess no one's interested in tiny little minutia like WHY Spider-Man is defecting, just so long as square peg A is in round hole B by the time issue six rolls around.

 

[Doc Destruction]

That's what happens when writers have free reign and editors don't get to do their jobs.

 

[Zev]

You mean an editor's job ISN'T to destroy the Peter/MJ marriage? Someone tell Quesada, quick!

 

[ang_hulk]

clor.

 

[The Hero]

What makes it worse is that this is Amazing Spider-Man, Marvel's flagship title, and Civil War, Marvel's big blockbuster event. But I guess no one's interested in tiny little minutia like WHY Spider-Man is defecting, just so long as square peg A is in round hole B by the time issue six rolls around.

Did they even give a good reason why Iron Man turned into a fascist nazi,other than because all authority figures in a Mark Millar story are?

 

[roach]

Did they even give a good reason why Iron Man turned into a fascist nazi,other than because all authority figures in a Mark Millar story are?

it's Marvel...no excuse is required...stop living in the past.....lol

 

[Galact-Gal]

Hey kids, can you spot the difference between these two "Civil War" panels?

You can? Congratulations, you're a better editor than anyone working at Marvel!

What makes it worse is that this is Amazing Spider-Man, Marvel's flagship title, and Civil War, Marvel's big blockbuster event. But I guess no one's interested in tiny little minutia like WHY Spider-Man is defecting, just so long as square peg A is in round hole B by the time issue six rolls around.

Well, this is the same Iron Man who attacked Peter at the end of ASM 535, and at the beginning of Civil War 5 is saying "Can't we just talk about this?" (a paraphrase). Maybe Tony has a split personality, & his different selves aren't letting each other know what they're saying/doing.

 

[CBG]

Worst moments in comic books?

That's like counting the stars in the sky.

 

[LEGO Spidey]

Its so wrong.

Wha...? What the F**K!! is THAT?!

Thanos... The same Thanos who fought a handful of cosmic beings for the Infinity Gems, the same Thanos who matched up to Galactus once, the same Thanos who eats the Hulk, Drax, Thor, Silver Surfer and the Avengers for breakfast on a daily basis... Is being lead away by the NYPD in FRICKIN' HANDCUFFS?!

That's seriously the most nonsensical thing I've EVER seen.

BTW, Zev, you positively rock. I don't disagree with anything you say. I just found this thread yesterday and have been reading it over... You, sir, are a living legend. Rock on, fellow Conservative.

 

[Max Shrek]

All I can say to PAD is "You are dead wrong." I didn't read any spoilers for The Other. It still sucks. If you knew every spoiler for Lord of the Rings (and people who read the books did), the movies would still rock. Suspension of disbelief is all well and good, but this isn't the sixties. Get over it. The hippies all sold out to the Man, John Lennon is dead, and Nixon resigned.

And guess what? Go back to the sixties and read Spider-Man and I bet a few issues after that hundredth issue, you'll find a LETTER COLUMN where people tear into the four arms thing, while other people praise it. Believe it or not, back in the day not every comics development was greeted like nectar from the gods. There was *****ing, there was moaning, and people pointed out mistakes so much that they gave out things called No-Prizes to the guys who caught them. The only difference I can see is that in the old days, when someone didn't like what Stan Lee did, he didn't call them overly dramatic little girls.

We're more cynical nowadays? Tough. You writers have more freedom than ever. You want to publish books where the characters swear and have anal sex? Slap a MAX label on it and you're good to go. You want to kill off a character for cheap shock value? You can do that too. You can even launch your own independent comic book and own the whole kit and kaboodle. Hell, if you're lucky, they'll even make a movie of your work. If, with all that creative freedom, you still can't write a good book, don't blame it on the Internet.

The Internet HELPS YOU. Think Runaways. Think She-Hulk. Think Invincible. When people like something, they talk about it to their friends, they post scans of it, they SPREAD THE WORD. That's word of mouth you could never get in the sixties. And if they use that word of mouth to warn other people to stay away from bad comics, more power to 'em. I know a lot of guys here and on other communities whose judgement I trust to tell me what comics I might like better than Wizard magazine.

I know there are people who nitpick every little detail. I don't think I'm one of them, although I will call it like I see it when I come across a comic I don't like. The majority of the Internet says "Don't hire Rob Liefeld, we don't like his art. Don't hire Chuck Austen, we don't like his writing. Don't make everything dark and gritty, we don't like that."

So maybe people would buy more comics if A. They weren't drawn by Rob Liefeld B. They weren't written by Chuck Austen. and C. They weren't all about people being raped and murdered while everyone else naval-gazed angstfully about how people were being raped and murdered.

So don't blame us for your shortcomings. The majority of fans I've met are fun, courteous, polite, friendly, good people who really want to read a nice yarn and talk about it afterwards with other people who GET THEM. We're not the enemy here. Your objective is not to shock us or to fool us or to make us angry (although you can do all those things). It's to tell us a story that we'll pay money for. Something that we can pick apart and examine and call bull**** on and criticize and gush over and REMEMBER.

And you writers love it. You worship it. It's why you write (that and beer money). You put in in-jokes and references to Greek myth and subtext and layers upon layers of characterization in the hopes that someone will pick your story apart and analyze it and post essays on how Superman and Batman respect each other, but can never be friends because of X while you go "Yes! Yes! That's it exactly! You got it!" or "I never thought of it that way, but now you've given me an idea! To the writing-mobile!" or "Wow, he's right, that *did* suck, I'll have to remember it for next time."

You've got the best job in the world. You're writing modern mythology. You're continuing the adventures of the characters you grew up with. You are the music-makers and you are the dreamers of dreams.

Don't **** it up.

Greatest. Post. Ever.

 

[Nivek]

Worst thing to happen to comics?


BRUCE JONES writing Hulk!!!!!!!!!!!

followed by Marvel firing Peter David from the Hulk. It took 5 years for the Hulk comic to recover. But Axel Alonso and Bruce Jones writing lame Hulkless stories for 3 years definatly has to be the low point.

 

[The Hero]

Greatest. Post. Ever.

I never really thought about it,but....it is.

 

[Zev]

<SOL>

The Command Desk is strangely empty, the lights dim. Suddenly, we see a black CAPE dip into frame.

MIKE: I am the caped avenger of the night. Ever since my parents died, I’ve sworn to wage a lone campaign against crime and corruption…

Then a yellow cape dips into frame.

MIKE: What the…? Who are you?

TOM: Don’t you recognize me? I’m your lovable sidekick, Robin!

MIKE: Well, alright. Together, the two of us shall be all that stands between Gotham City and destruction, eh Robin?

TOM: Keep up, Mike, I’m Nightwing now!

CROW: And I’m the new Robin!

MIKE: Alright, then the three of us shall be all that stands…

GYPSY: Four of us!

MIKE: Who?

GYPSY: I’m Batgirl!

MIKE: Fine, whatever. Then the four of us…

NANITE: (O.S.) Yoohoo, Mike! Down here.

MIKE: What in the hey now?

The viewport opens to show a view of the Nanites.

NANITE: We’re the Birds of Prey! Oracle, Black Canary, Huntress, Misfit, Big Barda…

MIKE: How many of you are there?

NANITE: About twenty.

MIKE: Okaaaaay… then the twenty-four of us shall fight a hopeless quest to…

Cambot turns to a mirror to reveal he is dressed as Azrael.

MIKE: (O.S.) Oh, for crying out loud!

<Spaghetti Planet>

<SOL>

Mike has taken off his Batman outfit and changed in a Superman costume.

MIKE: Fine, be as Batty as you want. Now I’m the Last Son of Krypton.

Crow jumps in, dressed in a red miniskirt and blonde wig.

CROW: And I’m the Last Daughter of Krypton!

TOM: (eyeing Crow) Saaaay…

A light starts beeping.

MIKE: Look alive, spin-offs, the Luthor-Brainiac Team is calling.

<Deep 13>

Dr. F and TV’s Frank face camera.

DR. F: So, you’ve learned that profit motive always trumps conceptual truthfulness. Good for you, boobie. I assume you’re ready for our invention exchange?

<SOL>

MIKE: You bet.

<Deep 13>

Frank holds up what looks like a periodic table of elements, only it haphazardly veers off in several directions.

DR. F: As you’re well-aware, every superhero has a weakness. But how to keep track of who’s vulnerable to what? With this, the Mad Scientist’s Guide To Weaknesses, you don’t have to. Here we have the Superman Family of weaknesses… magic and Kryptonite… the Batman Family of weaknesses… emotional intimacy… the Marvel Family, the X-Men, and so on. It’s a must for any secret lair. It even has Spider-Man… bridges, of Madison County or otherwise.

FRANK: And if you order now, we throw in a free sample of Kryptonite, colored for your convenience.

Dr. F opens the box.

DR. F: Ooh, Teal Kryptonite. This… actually makes it so Superman must see Must-See TV.

<SOL>

MIKE: Wow. That’s completely sinister and morally bankrupt.

<Deep 13>

MADS: Thank you!

<SOL>

Mike is holding up what looks like a simple collector’s longbox.

MIKE: As all comic book fans know, there’s nothing more frustrating than taking a chance on a first issue, getting to care about the characters and situations… then what do the editors do?

CROW: They chop it out at the knees! Bam!

MIKE: Well, with the hypothetical longbox, now that’s no longer an issue. Just reach in a ways…

He reaches into up to the elbow.

MIKE: Think about what you want to read, and pull out the issue!

He yanks out issue 150 of Young Justice.

MIKE: See? Here’s the issue that would’ve been put out by DC this month if the series hadn’t been canceled.

CROW: (reading) “Empress’ greatest tragedy”?

TOM: (reading) I didn’t know Deathstroke was into that sort of thing.

MIKE: Well, we’re still ironing the kinks out.

<Deep 13>

DR. F: As you can see, boobies, in every universe some things remain constant. Speaking of which, your experiment today is the phenomenally best-selling, phenomenally late All-Star Batman and Robin, by maestro Frank Miller.

<SOL>

TOM: Cool! Frank Miller! He did Sin City and 300 and Batman Year One and…

MIKE: Cool it, Tom. This is jumped-the-shark Frank Miller. Kinda like Michael Jackson after he went white, only with less child molestation.

CROW: (disagreeing) Have you READ The Dark Knight Strikes Again?

The usual cacophony starts.

ALL: Ahh! We’ve got movie sign!

<5… 4… 3… 2… 1… 0>

BATMAN
And
ROBIN, the BOY WONDER

MIKE: As opposed to the Girl Wonder.
CROW: Frank Miller and Girl Wonder opposed? Stop talking crazy!

#1
Script
Frank Miller

TOM: Catering: Joe Gillies.
CROW: Horse Wrangler: Alabaster Finch.
MIKE: Vomiting: Us.

3/20/05

TOM: And since then, they’ve gotten all the way up to issue four.
CROW: It makes The Ultimates look like 52!
MIKE: What have I told you two about fanboy in-jokes?

Edited 6/15/05

CROW: This was edited?

PAGE ONE

1.

INT. CIRCUS TENT – NIGHT

WILD ANGLE—go nuts, Jim—12-year-old DICK GRAYSON

MIKE: Too young to be slashed?
CROW: Never. I’m all about that hot neonatal twincest.
MIKE: Eww.

We love him from the moment we first see him—those big eyes, that trusting, sweet smile

TOM: Those muscular thighs…

FLIPS, upside down, through space. Airborne. In circus costume. Keep it simple. A TRAPEZE swings wild behind him. No other background needed.

CROW: At least not until the fourth season, when it turns out she’s descended from a French witch and destined to reunite all the Kryptonian elements.

Our boy’s confident as all hell.

SUPER: BATMAN AND ROBIN THE BOY WONDER
Episode One

MIKE: The Phantom Menace.
TOM: More like the Phantom Plot Progression!

1.1.1 CAP: This should get me KILLED.

1.1.2 CAP: But it WON’T.

MIKE: But just in case it does, I’m glad I put in a call to All-State.

1.1.3 CAP: Not that I can BREATHE, with my HEART fighting it out with my ADAM’S APPLE, just now—

CROW: Is the winner going to go on to face Mike Tyson?
MIKE: (Tyson) I’m gonna eat his heart, I’m gonna eat his children…

PAGE TWO

1.

CLOSER ANGLE—TWO HANDS, one his MOM’S,

CROW: One belonging to Ash…

One his DAD’S, grabs Dick’s either FOREARM, arresting his fall, just as his hands grab theirs.

2.1.1 CAP: --but I know for sure I’ll get through this.

2.1.2 CAP: They’re always there for me.

2.1.3 CAP: They always catch me.

TOM: Man, wouldn’t it be ironic if there came a point when they WEREN’T there for him?

2.

WIDER—MOM and DAD, youthful, legs LOCKED on TRAPEZES, FLING young Dick UPWARD.

TOM: Dick learns at a young age that showing affection will result in being rapidly pushed away.
CROW: Oh, ouch. In a very meta way.

2.2.1 CAP: Mom and Dad.

2.2.2 CAP: They always catch me.

TOM: Sometimes right when I’m in the middle of enjoying a Playboy.

2.2.3 CAP: They’re always there for me.

3.

FULL FIGURE—DICK, in flight upward, joyful.

2.3.1 CAP: They’re always there for me.

MIKE: So, you think his parents are always there for him?

2.3.2 CAP: I fly.

PAGE THREE

1.

INT. PLUSH APARTMENT – NIGHT

FULL FIGURE—VICKI VALE walks, in bra and panties and not one inch of clothing more,

<Mike covers the Bots’ eyes.>
BOTS: Hey! What’s going on!?
MIKE: Sorry, this is not for young robots’ peepers.

Walks—no, hell, she struts—BACK-LIT against the cruel, Art Deco beauty of GOTHAM CITY. Think Rita Hayworth in her prime.

MIKE: And in her undies.
CROW: Seriously, Mike, what’s going on?
MIKE: Just some boring exposition. Nothing you have to see.

She’s gorgeous. She speaks to her headset, dictating:

3.1.1 VICKI: So we’ve got ourselves a MAN of STEEL in Metropolis—

TOM: A Man of Nitrogen in Vancouver.
CROW: A Man of Carbon in Pittsburg…

3.1.2 VICKI: --and why exactly IS it we call him a MAN of STEEL? That DOES bring certain THOUGHTS to mind.

MIKE: Oh, she must read Scans_Daily.

3.1.3 CAP: Gotham City.

3.1.4 CAP: Vicki Vale.

3.1.5 CAP: Columnist.

3.1.6 CAP: Gadfly.

TOM: Libertarian.
MIKE: Pisces.
CROW: Not a lesbian, but experimented a little in college.
MIKE: Crow!

3.1.4 CAP: Dictating.

CROW: “Und then, ve vill invade Poland!”

3.1.5 CAP: She’s trouble.

3.1.6 CAP: The kind of trouble you want.

TOM: So, not the Trouble written by Mark Millar?
CROW: “Oh, Marvel’s most popular character is really sweet old Aunt May’s bastard son. That’s a GREAT idea for a comic.”
MIKE: Stay focused, guys.

PAGE FOUR

1.

CLOSER-MEDIUM ANGLE—VICKI continues. She ***** her head, tossing her hair. Detail her BRA. It’ll drive them crazy, Jim.

MIKE: Not quite in the way you want, Frank.

4.1.1 VICKI: MAN OF STEEL? I mean, come ON. ENQUIRING GIRLS want to KNOW.

TOM: Which is why Larry Niven wrote “Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex.”

4.1.2 VICKI: So METROPLIS gets a MAN OF STEEL. And what do we get in dear old GOTHAM CITY?

MIKE: Trouble?
CROW: Right here in Gotham City?
TOM: The kind of trouble you want or the other kind?

A damn FLYING RODENT. Who doesn’t even FLY.

CROW: But you just said he…

A goddamn BAT MAN.

2.

BODY SHOT—THIGH UP—give us an even better angle on the babe. Front on. Walking right at us. She knows what she’s got. Make them drool.

MIKE: Man, breaking the fourth wall just to flirt? I don’t think Grant Morrison would approve.

4.2.1 VICKI: I mean, how lame is THAT? This LOSER dressed up like DRACULA and throws a few OTHER losers through WINDOWS and we’re supposed to SWOON? I don’t think so, Masked Manhunter.

4.2.2 VICKI: Sometimes I DESPAIR, dear reader.

CROW: Tell me about it. We’re only four pages into this!

Sometimes life seems to hold no MEANING.

CROW: Obviously it’s time to start complaining about comic books!
TOM: “They turned Cass evil! Bastards!”
MIKE: “I don’t like how Bart is all mopey now!”
CROW: “They killed Steph and didn’t give her a memorial!”
MIKE: Guys, I think we really made a difference there.
TOM: Yeah, that showed ‘em what’s what!

They get a MAN OF STEEL. We get a flying RAT. What’s a poor girl to DO?

TOM: Well, if life gives you a flying rat, make rat-aid.
MIKE: Shouldn’t that be RAT-aid?

3.

OK, Jim, I’m shameless.

ALL: We know.

Let’s go with an ASS SHOT. Panties detailed. Balloons from above.

MIKE: But they’re full of Smilex gas!
CROW: (Nicholson) “Like my plastic surgeon always said, if you’ve gotta go, go with a smile!”
TOM: (Nicholson) “You can’t handle the truth!
MIKE: (Nicholson) “My name is Wilbur Force. My first name is Wilbur. My last name is Force. I don’t have a middle name. I have three or four abscesses, a touch of pyorrhea, nine or ten cavities, I lost my pivot tooth, and I’m in terrible pain.”
BOTS: Huh?
MIKE: I’m old-school.


She’s walking, restless as always. We can’t take our eyes off her. Especially since she’s got one fine ass.

4.3.1 VICKI: But at least we’ve got BRUCE WAYNE, here in GOTHAM. BRUCE WAYNE. RICH as HOWARD HUGHES—

TOM: Uhh, is that the best analogy she can think of?
MIKE: Of course. Don’t you know Brucie is gonna end up wasting his life to build the Spruce Bat, sending Robins in to take jars of urine out of the Batcave…

4.3.2 VICKI: --and LOOKS? Excuse me. Do NOT get me started.

CROW: Oh, how we wish we could’ve taken that advice earlier.

The man is as hot as the SUN.

TOM: Yeah, but in five million years he’s gonna develop a red giant of a beer belly.

A woman’s skin MELTS at the THOUGHT of him.

MIKE: Don’t even think about it, Crow.
CROW: I wasn’t going to say anything!

PAGE FIVE

1.

CLOSE-UP—VICKI turns her love face, her HAIR flowing, in response to her apartment’s BUZZER. A bit annoyed.

SE(BIG): BZZZZT!

5.1.1 VICKI: What the HELL?

2.

WIDER—BACK VIEW—VICKI moves toward a security monitor at her ELEVATOR. Keep our eyes on how good she looks. Something tells me you can pull that off, Jim. Go for a furious gesture. A raised fist, something like that. Nothing vulgar.

MIKE: Too easy. Let it pass.

5.2.1 VICKI: Jesus. I hate that thing. Makes me jump out of my SKIN.

CROW: I thought she already melted out of her skin when she thought about Bruce Wayne.
TOM: Speaking of which, how ironic that she dislikes Batman and…
MIKE: We got it, Tom.
TOM: Because Bruce Wayne actually is…
MIKE: Got it!

Why do they have to make DOOR BUZZERS so damn LOUD? What’s WRONG with this town, anyway?

CROW: Ray Nagin is the mayor.
MIKE: DC really missed an opportunity at not following No Man’s Land up with Chocolate Gotham City.

5.2.2 VICKI: Besides the FLYING RAY GUY who doesn’t FLY, I mean?

TOM: She’s right. It’s not flying, it’s falling with style.
MIKE: C’mon, guys, let’s leave Vicki to her flying rat guy.
CROW: Good. Because I’ve got a few problems with this comic and a great plan to fix it!

 

[The Hero]

More. MORE!

 

[The Hero]

hahaha sexism.

 

[blud_knight]

I would say the worst moment for iron man fans was cival war. most of the fans who stayed with him, were berated by the ones who did not. it was a catch 22 all the way.
then cap dies, and who is the scapegoat? yup, old tin pants.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

You might as well say everything 2000+.

 

[Spidey Lover 10]

WORST MOMENT EVER: NOT BEING ABLE 2 SEE MS MARVEL NUDE IN IRREDEMABLE ANT-MAN # 7, BUT SEEING GIGANTA (HOTHOTHOTHOT) NUDE IN ALL-NEW ATOM # 4!!!! DAMN, GIGANTA'S ****ING HOT!!!!!!t: :heart: :heart: :heart:

 

[Sugarculted]

heloooooo-oooooh? anyone gonna post here? heloooo-ooooooooooooooooooh?:

what drugs are you taking?

 

[Vic Von Doom]

These are all good answers, but I'll go toe to toe with anyone who doesn't agree that Sins Past is the worst comic book moment of all time. I mean, Gwen Stacy being seduced into cheating on Peter and cashing in her V-card with NORMAN FREAKING OSBORN, causing her to become pregnant with twins that grow super-fast thanks to Osborn's Goblin Sperm that she takes to Paris to conceive that grow to adulthood in about 5 years is much worse than Reed Richards cloning Thor or Iron Man being a *****e.

**** you, JMS. **** you.

 

[CBG]

In terms of screw-ups, Marvel edges DC quite a bit.

 

[Czar Colossus]

These are all good answers, but I'll go toe to toe with anyone who doesn't agree that Sins Past is the worst comic book moment of all time. I mean, Gwen Stacy being seduced into cheating on Peter and cashing in her V-card with NORMAN FREAKING OSBORN, causing her to become pregnant with twins that grow super-fast thanks to Osborn's Goblin Sperm that she takes to Paris to conceive that grow to adulthood in about 5 years is much worse than Reed Richards cloning Thor or Iron Man being a *****e.

**** you, JMS. **** you.

Agreed!!!!!!!!
That story and "The Other" makes the clone saga look like a masterpiece.
I also hated how Lobdell wrapped up that Legacy Virus crap in X-men with the death of Colossus in #390 that issue sucked badly!

 

[Willowhugger]

Okay, the first thing I want to say is that I deserve a medal for reading through 36 pages of this thread before posting. There is some serious fanboy bile, not the least of which is political but I'll only comment on some of the things that interest me.

John Constantine's "Johnny Comes Marching Home" story: I actually agree that this was an insanely offensive storyline. First of all, we have no idea what the Ressurection crusaders did to bring back the Vietnam War dead. They're later revealed to be a bunch of genuine angel servants (abet, an evil Angel) but they have no real 'magic' per say. So, it's just bad storytelling to begin with. They just seem to "wish" them home.

Next, I live in Kentucky and know some genuine [insert your derogitory name for them as you will]. The 'White Trash' that do nothing but drink, abuse their wives, abuse their children, spout racist garbage, and don't care for themselves. Guys who would be home as villains in 'To Kill a Mockingbird.' So, it's wrong to necessarily say that the writer is wrong for having them inside this storyline.

However, I don't particularly find it 'poetic justice' as this book seems to imply that people who want their dead children that died in a useless war (my father said it best of his veteran fellows of the war "Honor them for their courage, hate their leaders for their cowardice.") to come back are evil for it. It shows a ungodly amount of disrespect for the men who died in that war as well as the families who were devastated by it.

It also shows a tremendous disgust at human loss, something that John Constantine is usually very good at representing. John is a man who cannot love, cannot be loved, and destroys everything he touches but that doesn't mean he doesn't constantly deal with it. This story seems to just say that people who mourn the dead that were lost in circumstances beyond their control are monsters.

It's a plain evil story.

Ultimates Politics: I think it's pretty clear that the book is meant to be ridiculously political. They made Thor the worst sort of Michael Moore Hippie but managed to bring him back a bit because, say what you will about Eric Thorleif, but the guy certainly willing is willing to fight for the lives of other people when it comes down to it.

Simultaneously, Captain America is a decidedly reactionary and jingoistic character in defiance of his 616 counterpart's take on the matter. Nevertheless, he also seems to be a man who doesn't care about the minutia of politics either. His purpose is to be a soldier and obey orders out of respect/trust of his superiors. That's something that you rarely see in any comic book character, the belief the government knows what its doing.

(Frankly, I'm going to be disappointed with the ending of Ultimates 2 no matter what happens since there's no way that they can legitimately go back from what happened. Russia, France, North Korea, and China assaulted the United States with their Pearl Harbor like attack here. Unless their governments turn over and/or hang everyone involved, that's an act of war)

616 Captain America: I've always like Brubaker's interpretation of Captain America there. Yes, Captain America is a very soft and sensetive guy at heart despite being one of the Greatest Generation. He's an artist and a progressive whose uncomfortable when he finds out his war buddy is a homosexual yet shrugs it off. Still, the guy nevertheless just KILLS people who are members of AIM, Hydra, and the Red Skulls service. Take them alive if necessary but if not, don't lose any sleep over it. I.e. the Roosevedltian Democrat. We're cuddly and social service-like but we have teeth. That's a guy I can respect despite being a moderate Republican (I'm not a neo-con).

To me, the worst bit of Captain America assassination was two bits. One, where they tried to imply that he never killed ANYONE in World War 2. I don't even want to know what the hell was going on in people's minds when they thought that was a good idea. It's disrespectful to the greatest generation. Two, when Captain America was angry over the execution of the Kree Supreme Intelligence. A monster that actually killed probably x10,000 times the number of people that Hitler killed.

Also, Flag Smasher I never had a problem with. It was just the whole fact that no one ever called him on the utter hypocrisy of his entire mission. In order to 'unite the world' he was willing to go to war with the entirety of it! BTW, those who brought up Captain America assaulting a superior officer, I can point out that he's not technically a Captain in the military but that's a title of courtesy. Basically, Captain America is a special agent for S.H.I.E.L.D. that answers only to Nick Fury. While its grossly out of character for Captain America to throw down with the guy and they could expell him from the base or press charges, he's more like a member of Interpol. Remember, SHIELD is an agency of the UN that works.

Of course, I still remember throwing away the comic where Castro thanks Captain America for saving Cuba.

Here's some bits that bothered me though....

Weapon X miniseries: This is the only time I've ever had a problem with the 616 government's portrayal in Marvel (though the discovery that a cabal in the US government was releasing supercriminals---sometimes supercriminals who have THREATENED THE ENTIRE WORLD was pretty damn close to being moronic). The Neverland Death Camp. Pause a second and think on what that comic said. The US and Canadian government had a Death Camp.

Seriously, at that point, I dropped all X-men titles because when that happens.....Charles Xavier's dream is dead. Magneto was actually RIGHT the entire time. The government needs to overthrown and cleansed with fire.

Doctor Doom Mischaracterization: In the recent Black Panther storyline, we have Doctor Doom talk about the inferiority of black people and comment how the Black Panther's Wakandans must be mutants because their so advanced. Okay, first of all, in the 40 odd years that Doctor Doom has existed...never once has he indicated that he's a racist. Doctor Doom went back in time to kill Adolf Hitler for Christ sake. While you can certainly be a bigot when your people are discriminated against, Doctor Doom being a gypsy and all, it tends to make you aware of the pointlessness of naked prejudice. However, Dr. D also is the world's greatest scientist after Reed Richards and you'd pretty much think that he's aware that euglenics is bull**** science. Finally, this is actually him trying to be diplomatic with the Black Panther. He has to know T'Challa is huge on 'One African People, One Black Race' style progressivism (despite that really making no sense).

I call Doombot.

Then there's Doctor Doom in Unthinkable where essentially they take a typical Doctor Doom plot and attempt to make him as utterly/pointlessly evil as possible. Doctor Doom, in the process of this story, skins alive his only love Valaria in order to appease some demons. Frankly, Dr. Doom would NEVER cheapen himself like a prostitute to some demons for power. He'd steal it! He then kidnaps and tortures the Fantastic Four, that's really not something that's against DD's character. I'm not disputing he's evil and hates the FF. However, he tortures an 8 year old boy and sends him to Hell. That's not Victor Von Doom. He might toss Franklin and Valaria in a well appointed tower for 20 years but he's not going to torture kids. Is it wrong for some villains to have scruples?

Tony Stark, Secretary of Defense: Now, I don't mind Tony Stark as a character. I've never agreed with his politics but they were there from the beginning. He's a left winger who made his fortune selling the United States munitions but then decided to 'repent of it' and somehow managed to successfully move his company into computers and telecommunications. Maybe the fact he's the third smartest guy in the world after Reed Richards allowed him to pull it off.

Okay, let's get this out of the way, Tony Stark has always been the biggest liberal superhero at Marvel. He's the guy who hates the Defense Industry for entirely irrational and personal reasons that boil down to nearly being killed by one of his own mines. Much like Oppenheimer, I'm willing to look beyond Tony's personal prejudices because of his accomplishments. Also, I find it hard to gainsay a guy who was the 2nd richest man in America in Iron Man Volume 2 and decided to give away his 200 billion dollar fortune to a children's charity.

But seriously, it was ridiculous when Tony Stark won't even admit to not being a Republican (or just SIGNS A BLOODY NOTE MAKING HIM ONE) to becoming George Bush Jr.'s Secretary of Defense. A job they are basically handing him. The fact he tries to word game around this only makes it worse! The irony that Ralph Nader here is used as the "Voice of the Establishment" in Civil War only makes it worse. Hell, they had him selling weapons again in Hypervelocity.

Whether you disagree with him being against arms sales or not, its against the entire purpose of Iron man's character. The guy was driven to alcoholism because of weapons sales!

Iron Fist 1#: Iron Fist turns down a 10 billion dollar train deal with a Chinese company in protest of Tianamen Square. Now, the company turns out to be a front for Hydra but does that make sense to ANYBODY? If there's one thing worse than being topical, it's being topical in a way that doesn't make sense.

How, Danny, does hurting the American economy and countless Chinese laborers exactly help the world's peoples or avenge the people senselessly murdered there?

The Sentry: The Void has killed over a million people. They haven't killed Robert Renyolds (he's SAVED more but that's not really the point is it?)

Thor: Gods on Earth: I personally disagree with Zev totally since all of the Anti-Conservative stuff that you seem to be indicating, is pretty much the opposite of the Democratic view point. In one of the few bipartisan issues, they're both all about foreign aid. Well before the War on Terror, there were plenty of Superman stories where Superman attempts to solve all the worlds problems by becoming a tyrant. Honestly, this is actually just a rewrite of Alan Moore's (not a stirring endorsement of the non-bias nature of the story I admit) Miracleman. Frankly, the entire storyline is about the old fashioned montage of "Through the best intentions comes Hell." It also bears some similiarities to the immortal Squadron supreme series.

Frankly, the story is pretty pro-conservative at points in a sort of Right-Wing Militant sort of way. That Democrats and other liberals are out to destroy Christianity, conquer the world, and set up a single Flasg-Smasher style nation state of socialist domination. I'm Republican but there's some pretty crazy theorists out there. However, let me point out what exactly a conservative interpretation of Thor: Gods on Earth is...

A surprisingly Republican and conservative storyline. Effectively, it takes the hero Thor as your typical sympathetic hippie and tries to have him solve all of the world's problems through an advanced socialist agenda. Immediately, Thor decides that one of the biggest problems is "evil" Christianity/Islam/Judaism like so many other Marxist thinkers of the past. He furthermore decides that the only way of 'progressing' humanity is to eliminate national sovereignty. Sounds a bit like a certain Austrian doesn't it? The work also bitterly condemns the welfare state with the implication that people don't need to be taken care of to all their needs, what they need is to be provided challenges for them to be inspired to work. The drunken, lazy, sexually indulgent, and pathetic society that Thor creates is one of the most shockingly anti-socialist messages I've seen in comics before. Hell, it's even bitterly anti-communist as it shows the dangers of re-education camps.

Oddly, I'm also all for 616 Hulk never having killed anyone in his right mind. It's the frequent mind control or madness that takes him that all of his kills come from. The Hulk, let's not forget, isn't Bruce's Id for the most part but just an animal like savage. Most animals don't attack unless provoked.

 

[Zev]

Since it's been too long since I've done one, the moment in All-Star Superman where Lex Luthor reveals that the reason he despises Superman, the reason behind all the schemes and master plans and death-traps is... (drumroll please)... Superman keeps getting in his way.

That's IT?

After suggestions ranging from fanatical secular humanism to extreme paranoia, it boils down to Superman just being in the wrong place at the wrong time? I really need someone to clue me in on why making villains less complex is in any way, shape, or form a good idea.

Not to mention going back to the Silver Age characterization of Lex admiring Hitler, Napoleon, and Genghis Khan. Yeesh! Ever heard of three-dimensional characterization, Morrison? It's important in villains too.