Wrestling: The Action Soap Opera Thread

[BlackLantern]

that and Linda running for office...which she plans on doing again in 2012...she'll probably win this time around as none of the other candidates have any name recognition like Blumenthal

 

[Metallo]

Intersting viewpoint. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree. I mean, they have a new Hogan in John Cena, but the problem is while the kids love him, the Attitude Era leftover fans don't and that's why he gets a mixed reaction. It doesn't work like it did in the 80s.

I do agree with the reasons for why they've gone PG.

The times have changed from Austins era. He'd be popular if he came along today but just because he was a HUGE success then doesn't mean he'd be as huge a success now. His act as it was probably wouldn't be as hugely over today as it was in 1997/98.

The culture was JUST right for Austin in that period and the mix of ingredients was just right for him to explode.

After the Ra Ra surge of patriotism in the 80's and the political correctness of the 90s people were ready for an anti authority loner. Jerry Springers trash tv was a huge hit and we had a President in office who did what he wanted to. The NWO did what they wanted to and so did Austin. They were the cool anti establishment who said "f*** the rules."

The Monday Night ratings war era ignited this feeling of "anything goes and anything can happen." Thats gone now and likely never to come back fora lot of reasons.

Austin was the right guy at the right place at the right time. Just like Hogan. In both cases the world is a little bit of a different place now. Maybe the pendulum will swing back that way after the PG era has run its course but as of this second I'm not sure a guy like Austin would be AS over as he was at his peak. Its not just about the talent but the stars lining up just right.

 

[BlackLantern]

and now all those "**** the rules" people have become crazy OCD parents who shelter and smother their kids

I only say this because I ran into someone from HS the other day and she's become this Stepford wife....its kinda scary

 

[Metallo]

and now all those "**** the rules" people have become crazy OCD parents who shelter and smother their kids

I only say this because I ran into someone from HS the other day and she's become this Stepford wife....its kinda scary

Thats what happens when real life kicks people in the ass and they get older. Especially if they screw up. Then responsibilties mount.

 

[Project862006]

sd move for sin cara was good he is able to hit his entrance on sd lol

 

[Johnny Drama]

The problem is that not even today's mom's are watching soaps...NO ONE is watching them. It's not like calling WWE a soap opera is going to bring in women viewers because women don't watch soap operas either.

My mother and Grandmother obsess over All My Children and One Life to live and I work at a bank where ALL the women watch All My Children and talk about it non-stop. I hate soap operas but to say they do NOT have a large female fanbase is a gross inaccuracy.

Also, WWE didn't coin the term "Action Soap Opera" and isn't using it, it was a term created by Wrestling cynics and the first time I ever heard it was in '96 in regards to WCW. So, to the people here condemning WWE for a 15 year old term that they aren't even throwing around, take it easy. I for one hate the idea of WWE hiring soap opera writers, but the result was the dynamic Truth heel turn on Raw so some good can come out of hiring writers from outside genres just as long as it doesn't become a literal soap opera.

 

[BlackLantern]

the WWE has also hired a writer or two from DC Comics as well....but is that ok because you like comics?

I know they won't even look at a writer that doesn't have at least 2-3 years experience elsewhere

 

[Heretic]

My mother and Grandmother obsess over All My Children and One Life to live and I work at a bank where ALL the women watch All My Children and talk about it non-stop. I hate soap operas but to say they do NOT have a large female fanbase is a gross inaccuracy.

One Life To Live and All My Children have both been canceled. I pretty much rest my case with that.

 

[Metallo]

My mother and Grandmother obsess over All My Children and One Life to live and I work at a bank where ALL the women watch All My Children and talk about it non-stop. I hate soap operas but to say they do NOT have a large female fanbase is a gross inaccuracy.

I think they are still pretty large...but they aren't as large as they used to be...and with more competition out there on tv (and elsewhere) thats getting cheaper to produce its easy to see why soaps are dying off. Plus I'm sure theres some kind of vicious cycle going on where networks screw with soap operas and that drives away some viewers. Then the networks blame the shows not themselves and cancel them. Thats happening in all tv these days.

Also, WWE didn't coin the term "Action Soap Opera" and isn't using it, it was a term created by Wrestling cynics and the first time I ever heard it was in '96 in regards to WCW. So, to the people here condemning WWE for a 15 year old term that they aren't even throwing around, take it easy. I for one hate the idea of WWE hiring soap opera writers, but the result was the dynamic Truth heel turn on Raw so some good can come out of hiring writers from outside genres just as long as it doesn't become a literal soap opera.

But Vince HAS used that term. Even though he may not have coined it he has publicly used it. Even as far back as the 90s. Nobody forced HIM to use it.

As for the soap writers/R Truth...turns like that were around in wrestling before wrestling ever had a full fledged team of writers scripting shows. I'm not sure I'd give them credit for coming up with an idea thats been around for years and is as old as Vinces WWF itself. It seems more accurate to me to give the credit to Truth and Morrison for the execution and for the agents who helped put it together...the ones that did that kind of stuff years before wrestling ever HAD soap writers.

Arn Anderson knows more about a wrestling heel turn than TEN soap opera writers so how do we know he doesn't deserve most of the credit especially since there's a good chance that he was the agent that helped put it together?

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

i agree lol and even when given the chance they blow it like Gail Kim has blown every time she has been given the mic and do we need to be remember how bad Natalya was on commentary

Michelle may be bland of some sorts but she atleast is solid on the mic to go with being solid in the ring

Maybe Michelle is bland or whatever, but her and Layla are the only divas on the roster with any sort of character what so ever.

Beth Phoenix is always hurt. And for all the talk about Michelle holding everyone down, when Beth has been healthy she's been pushed pretty heavily.

It's not Michelle's fault that a freaking Bella is champ on Raw. It's not Michelle's fault that Gail Kim isn't used on Raw. Or Melina.

But most of all, it's not Michelle's fault that Vince McMahon treats the women's division as nothing more than a bunch of eye candy.

And in my opinion, that's all women's wrestling really is to me anyways. Credit to TNA for having a BETTER women's division than WWE, but honestly, I have no desire to watch women wrestling. Just like I don't want to watch the WNBA, women's soccer, or college softball. Nor do I want to see women in football. And I don't care to watch them wrestling either.

I watch the women's entrance, oogle them a bit, then fast forward to the next segment / match. That's not Michelle's fault, and nor would having better women's wrestlers change that for me.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Yes, she is



It IS her fault that there ARE ones worth watching (Gail, Beth, Nattie, Tamina) that are stuck on Superstars because she uses her husbands influence to stay in the title picture. So funny how when Taker took more time off after his last match with Kane, McCool was taken out of the Divas title picture. huh.

The championship has been on Raw, and has been for sometime now. McCool is on Smackdown. She has no influence over Raw divas like Gail Kim, Tamina, Eve, etc... And on Smackdown she's been hanging around with Vickie Guerrero.

 

[Johnny Drama]

It's always good to hire from outside mediums if they want to avoid being stale and come up with fresh ideas, but they need to have a balance and have some writers who are wrestling purists to keep the soap opera writers and Stephanie's comic book nerds in check.

 

[Metallo]

Maybe Michelle is bland or whatever, but her and Layla are the only divas on the roster with any sort of character what so ever.

Beth Phoenix is always hurt. And for all the talk about Michelle holding everyone down, when Beth has been healthy she's been pushed pretty heavily.

It's not Michelle's fault that a freaking Bella is champ on Raw. It's not Michelle's fault that Gail Kim isn't used on Raw. Or Melina.

But most of all, it's not Michelle's fault that Vince McMahon treats the women's division as nothing more than a bunch of eye candy.

And in my opinion, that's all women's wrestling really is to me anyways. Credit to TNA for having a BETTER women's division than WWE, but honestly, I have no desire to watch women wrestling. Just like I don't want to watch the WNBA, women's soccer, or college softball. Nor do I want to see women in football. And I don't care to watch them wrestling either.

I watch the women's entrance, oogle them a bit, then fast forward to the next segment / match. That's not Michelle's fault, and nor would having better women's wrestlers change that for me.

Either McCool stole her character or WWE stole it and gave it to her. Or WWE gave her freedom to come up with her own character. ALL the women could have characters if WWE gave them the opportunity. I don't think thats McCool's fault but that doesn't mean she deserves her spot. THATS issue.

Even if McCool has a character its TERRIBLE. So whats that do? Shes bad on the mic. Melina has a character, Mickie had a character (before they fired her). Serena had a character (before they fired her). Even Maryse has a character. But all that doesn't mean sh**.

McCool has a spot despite not doing anything to deserve it when there are women that get better reactions than her AND have more talent than her. Thats the biggest issue people have. I blame WWE before I'd blame her for most of that but that doesn't mean she's any good or that most people want to see her any more than any other divas.

And if McCool is complaining about Kaitlyn not "paying her dues" and complaining to keep her off tv then that IS McCools fault. Kaitlyn has more character and personality than McCool's even had. That stuff YOU always yourself is so important.

The championship has been on Raw, and has been for sometime now. McCool is on Smackdown. She has no influence over Raw divas like Gail Kim, Tamina, Eve, etc... And on Smackdown she's been hanging around with Vickie Guerrero.

I'm pretty sure she'd have influence on the entire division if she wanted it since she tends to stay around the main womens storylines on either show. And she wants to be in the divas title picture she'd have influence over it. Think about the match with Snookie. McCool was on Smackdown then too but she was suddenly in that spot and showing up on Raw. The brand split is loosly enforced so McCool can show up on BOTH shows.

 

[Metallo]

It's always good to hire from outside mediums if they want to avoid being stale and come up with fresh ideas, but they need to have a balance and have some writers who are wrestling purists to keep the soap opera writers and Stephanie's comic book nerds in check.

I have no issue with guys like that being hired but make sure they are hired to contribute in the proper areas Some comedy skits and set ups. Don't use them to write dialogue or wrestling situations because how the hell would a soap opera writer know anything about wrestling situations or how to talk like a wrestler? Thats why many of the scripted promos sound like sh**.

 

[SuperFerret]

Considering that wrestling is basically a soap opera mixed with a superhero comic, I think the new hires work.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

One Life To Live and All My Children have both been canceled. I pretty much rest my case with that.

Sitcoms get cancelled. That doesn't mean that the sitcom genre is dying.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Either McCool stole her character or WWE stole it and gave it to her. Or WWE gave her freedom to come up with her own character. ALL the women could have characters if WWE gave them the opportunity. I don't think thats McCool's fault but that doesn't mean she deserves her spot. THATS issue.

Even if McCool has a character its TERRIBLE. So whats that do? Shes bad on the mic. Melina has a character, Mickie had a character (before they fired her). Serena had a character (before they fired her). Even Maryse has a character. But all that doesn't mean sh**.

McCool has a spot despite not doing anything to deserve it when there are women that get better reactions than her AND have more talent than her. Thats the biggest issue people have. I blame WWE before I'd blame her for most of that but that doesn't mean she's any good or that most people want to see her any more than any other divas.

And if McCool is complaining about Kaitlyn not "paying her dues" and complaining to keep her off tv then that IS McCools fault. Kaitlyn has more character and personality than McCool's even had. That stuff YOU always yourself is so important.





I'm pretty sure she'd have influence on the entire division if she wanted it since she tends to stay around the main womens storylines on either show. And she wants to be in the divas title picture she'd have influence over it. Think about the match with Snookie. McCool was on Smackdown then too but she was suddenly in that spot and showing up on Raw. The brand split is loosly enforced so McCool can show up on BOTH shows.

I'm not talking about Michelle being good or not. I'm talking about people blaming Michelle for the state of the division, stating that now that she's gone, they can rebuild it. But they haven't built up stars that Michelle HAS no influence over, when they are on a completely different show. So....

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Considering that wrestling is basically a soap opera mixed with a superhero comic, I think the new hires work.

This.

Professional wrestling is essentially Drawn Together - a soap opera full of comic book characters.

(Well technically, I guess Drawn Together spoofs reality shows like The Real World, but you get my point)

 

[Metallo]

Sitcoms get cancelled. That doesn't mean that the sitcom genre is dying.

Theres more sitcoms on the air than just five. Last time I checked there were five or less soap operas on the air on the 4 major networks and those few left have all had to do a lot to cut costs.

Considering that wrestling is basically a soap opera mixed with a superhero comic, I think the new hires work.

Considering the ratings are either stagnant or dropping most of the time and PPV buyrates are dropping I'd say they don't. The audience is shrinking.

Even WWE was better and more popular 12 years ago when they relied less on soap opera/comic book writers and more on bookers.

There may be similarities in the three forms of entertainment but that doesn't mean they are the same thing.

Wrestlemania buyrates went up but thats only because they threw EVERY nostalgic big name (and some small ones) that they could get at us to entice more people to order the show. And a lot of people still think the show was kind of sh**.

 

[Heretic]

Sitcoms get cancelled. That doesn't mean that the sitcom genre is dying.

True...but that's because hit sitcoms exist and more hits replace the ones that dont work.

Soaps are being canceled left and right...clearly the trend is against the soaps as the dwindling number of soaps left are being replaced by game shows and talk shows.

 

[Specter313]

Beth Phoenix is always hurt. And for all the talk about Michelle holding everyone down, when Beth has been healthy she's been pushed pretty heavily.

This point I take some issue with, because Beth has been healthy for months and the most she has contributed since then has been singing a duet with Khali at Wrestlemania.

And in contrast, lets look at McCool over the past couple years. I don't know if it was last year or the year before, but there was big controversy over whoever does the big "best of the year" lists putting McCool at the top of the women's list. In response, many were quick to point out that their reasoning of her holding the title for so long only happened because she was injured a good deal of time, and instead of dropping the title so it could be defended by the healthy divas, they let her sit on the sidelines with it for MONTHS, when almost any other female wrestler would have been forced to abdicate the title until they got better.

Either way it's looked at, it is very obvious that McCool has been given preferential treatment over the years, and the biggest issue people have with it is that she has done nothing to deserve it. If it was someone like Trish or Lita who actually brought the division to its highest level in ever, then it might be understandable, but someone like McCool who has never been over and has the charisma of a brick doesn't make sense when there's been more over divas at the time and ones who have shown more talent. They just don't happen to be married to one of the biggest stars in the company right now. Even now, others in the locker room aren't looking at her so favorably because she doesn't pull her weight because she only shows up for tv and ppv shows, making Layla do all the work on house shows. It's more than obvious she's is being catered too when there's nothing that's been done to deserve it.

 

[Metallo]

I'm not talking about Michelle being good or not. I'm talking about people blaming Michelle for the state of the division, stating that now that she's gone, they can rebuild it. But they haven't built up stars that Michelle HAS no influence over, when they are on a completely different show. So....

But If she's holding other talent down we can blame her for that.

I'm not blaming her for getting her spot. I'm blaming her for sucking in her spot. Most people don't want to see her. Not even the fans of womens wrestling. Even if it was WWE's call to give her the spot its STILL HER FAULT she's a piece of sh** talent. She's been given EVERY opportunity to shine--more than any woman in the last 5 years--and she still can't cut the mustard.

You're the one saying wrestling is about character. Her character portrayal is like ten month old swamp ass. Like I said even the fans of womens wrestling think its crap. People CAN blame her for that because its her job to do that well.

This.

Professional wrestling is essentially Drawn Together - a soap opera full of comic book characters.

(Well technically, I guess Drawn Together spoofs reality shows like The Real World, but you get my point)

Wrestling has some similar ELEMENTS to comic books and soaps but they aren't the same thing. Otherwise when wrestling has tried comic book style characters more of them would have worked. They usually BOMB. Nobody gave a sh** about Max Moon or Aldo Montoya or the other comic book style characters WWE has squeezed out off its a**hole. Glacier was a bomb in WCW.

Soap stories that would work in soaps have BOMBED in WWF. The Torrie/Al/Dawn Marie nonsense sounds like something right out of a soap opera and WWE fans sh** all over it.

Those comic book/soap opera ELEMENTS have to be adapted to fit wrestling. But that kind of bold splashy lowbrow entertainment predates wrestling, comics, and soap operas

 

[Metallo]

there was big controversy over whoever does the big "best of the year" lists putting McCool at the top of the women's list. In response, many were quick to point out that their reasoning of her holding the title for so long only happened because she was injured a good deal of time, and instead of dropping the title so it could be defended by the healthy divas, they let her sit on the sidelines with it for MONTHS, when almost any other female wrestler would have been forced to abdicate the title until they got better.

Well said. When Mickie won the Knockouts title people here were *****ing that she was given the title despite being hurt.

Well I remember McCool went over a month...maybe two months without wrestling at all and got to KEEP the title. That makes no f***ing sense to me.

The way its aways been in WWE is if a person doesn't defend their title every 30 days its taken from them. Yet she kept her title. Thats bullsh**.

Thus McCool continuing her stranglehold on the title was bullsh**. Maybe that wasn't her call but that shows why so many people are sick of looking at her.

She's the f***in Jeff Jarrett of the Divas division.

 

[E-Man]

Intersting viewpoint. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree. I mean, they have a new Hogan in John Cena, but the problem is while the kids love him, the Attitude Era leftover fans don't and that's why he gets a mixed reaction. It doesn't work like it did in the 80s.

I do agree with the reasons for why they've gone PG.

Not to hate on Cena, but I don't think he has the same charisma that Hogan did. He's got a lot of talent, but not to the level of a guy like Hogan. The thing about the leftover Attitude Era fans is that they are people who are going to be watching wrestling anyway. Some even watched when Hogan was big, like myself. I think the backlash first started out as people pissed that all the stars left, so he took the heat more as they pushed him like crazy.

I don't think that type of heat lasts that long. The issue with Cena, like with the WWE in general is just that it's not that entertaining. They're trying to rationalize their loss of viewers in different ways besides their product being entertaining. I'm not mad that they're PG, I'm just upset that I am not often entertained like I used to with their product. I don't roll my eyes at Cena because I'm so old relic from the Attitude Era. If that was the case I would have hated HBK and Bret Hart like crazy when Hogan left and they took the torch. Not to pick on Cena since I used to be a HUGE fan. It's just that he is a really good sample of where things are right now.

The WWE just has to focus on entertaining instead of the whole, "What gimmick is going to get us through the next six months" line of thinking. I understand marketing and why they are focusing on certain demographics, but they're still not putting forth a good product, and they haven't in years.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

I think the thing with Cena is he's going through the same thing ever top dog has. People started booing Hogan and the Rock eventually, with the IWC constantly whining about basically every main eventer during the attitude era. Sick of the Rock, sick of Austin, sick of Taker, sick of HHH (especially). And it's worse for Cena because he's not quite a cultural phenomenon.