X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

Discussion in 'X-Men 1, 2 & 3' started by 4NutzinYoface, Jan 8, 2012.

  1. Nell2ThaIzzay

    Nell2ThaIzzay Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. While there certainly were some... Ratner moments... Magneto's speeches, Logan and Jean in the infirmary, the Angel prologue as well as the rejecting of the cure scenes, and others, I felt all remained very true to Singer's tone, as well as the plotline of the government weaponizing the cure to use on mutants.
     
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  2. Senator Pleasury

    Senator Pleasury Well-Known Member

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    Much on the contrary, X2 was the one that got rid of the discrimination angle almost entirely and just had it through some incidental references (child sticking out her tongue). X2 game was simply mutants vs bad guy.

    X3 recovered the discrimination issue by giving it a twist: society expects to re-define and get rid of mutation through the "cure." The very name of the "cure" is a linguistic trap to define mutation as a disease and we get to see all mutants reacting to it; some of them see it as a chance to be "normal," some of them hate the very concept of it because it makes their condition officially abnormal.
     
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  3. Nell2ThaIzzay

    Nell2ThaIzzay Well-Known Member

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    How can you say X2 got rid of the discrimination angle when the entire movie revolved around a man wanting to kill off an entire segment of the world's population simply because of how they were born?
     
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  4. Senator Pleasury

    Senator Pleasury Well-Known Member

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    No, it was a personal revenge for what his son did. Other than that, little was said about discrimination that hadn't been said in the first movie.
     
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  5. Nell2ThaIzzay

    Nell2ThaIzzay Well-Known Member

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    It was personal hatred for what his son did, alongside a genuine hatred for mutants and wanting to completely eradicate them into extinction.

    The movie establishes that Stryker wanted his son cured before Jason ever did what he did to Stryker's wife.
     
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  6. Senator Pleasury

    Senator Pleasury Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it was a personal thing. It wasn't the whole society divided around mutants, as in X1 or X3.
     
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  7. Nell2ThaIzzay

    Nell2ThaIzzay Well-Known Member

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    He orchestrated a mutant attack on the President of the United States and got that same President to authorize an attack on a private mutant school. His actions had the President ready to make some sort of declaration about mutants, one that seemingly wasn't going to be positive.

    I'd say that's divisive within society on the subject.
     
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  8. Senator Pleasury

    Senator Pleasury Well-Known Member

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    Not at all. it was all his personal agenda against mutants.

    That president's declaration - much like a lot of things happening in X2, like Wolverine finding out his origin and who he was - was about to happen for more than two hours but it never did in the end. Therefore, society never got to react to it.
     
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  9. Nell2ThaIzzay

    Nell2ThaIzzay Well-Known Member

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    President doesn't authorize missions to satisfy personal agendas. He does it because he deems it worthwhile to society and national security.

    Also, you think that society wasn't responding to an event - fueled by a mutant - that nearly wiped out all of humanity? There's a reason why the President was in position to make a declaration in the first place.
     
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  10. Senator Pleasury

    Senator Pleasury Well-Known Member

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    President reacted to an attack to himself. The movie never showed society's reaction to mutants.

    No, people's reaction to it wasn't shown at all in the movie. And we don't even know if they were aware of mutants (o Stryker) behind it. And we know the president never got to tell them.

    It wasn't mutants killing people around the world, but Stryker out of his own personal revenge. That is what the movie was about. Unlike X1 and X3 (well, and XM:FC), where the mutant condition was actually treated in terms of being different to the rest.
     
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  11. Great Mind(s)

    Great Mind(s) Broken

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    It wasn't just personal revenge! It was a crazy person trying to justifying his hatred of an entire race because of a personal issue. He was the most hardcore anti mutant racist we have seen in any of the x-films...

    Stryker sent his son to Xavier to be 'cured' or 'fixed', he was already anti-mutant before his wife died. But after that it sent him over the edge. He was experimenting on mutants and using them as slaves. He hated their existence and was about to commit world wide genocide. If it was only a personal revenge he would have just killed Xavier. X2 showed us someone who discriminated against mutants so much he turned his mutant son into a vegetable to help kill off the rest of the mutant population!

    If someone joined the KKK because he was once hurt by a non-white person and it filled him with hatred does that not count as someone who is a racist discriminatory person or just someone looking for personal revenge?

    I didn't see discrimination much in X3. Nobody was forcing anyone to take the cure and even so, thats a less worse fate than having your brain explode... X1 had Senator Kelly, X2 had Stryker , Magnetos guard and a little bit of the President. X3 had Warrens father who had no arc and hardly a purpose. It was a forced Discrimination story and you can tell it was forced because he had like 3 minor pointless scenes. And he still loved his son and he wasn't hateful.
     
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  12. Senator Pleasury

    Senator Pleasury Well-Known Member

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    So, you're saying it was personal.

    Sure. He was the bad guy.

    Yes, one person, for personal reasons, decided to go against the whole race. It was racist, but the movie was just about his racism, unlike X1 and X3 where discrimination happened at many levels of society.

    I'm not even saying it's wrong, but the discussion started when you said that elements about discrimination were gone in X3 and turns out in X2 were present only through Stryker whereas in X3 they were all over the plot.

    So if the government came up with a "cure" for being black, or gay... that wouldn't be considered discriminatory just because it's optional? That was the whole society being discriminatory in an indirect way, which was smart because some people would say that it's okay since nobody's being forced to do anything. But truth is that the very concept of "cure" officially defines mutation as a disease.

    And yes, Warren's father was discriminatory because he was afraid of being cast out of his important social circle. It was just one example, but the whole society was reacting to the "cure" idea, which made X3 about discrimination on a broad scale whereas X2 was about one man's issue.
     
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  13. Great Mind(s)

    Great Mind(s) Broken

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    Okay I guess it had some of the same tone...but where Warren and his dad have a happy ending, Iceman and his family don't. They were pretty anti-mutant too.​
     
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  14. Manic X

    Manic X Well-Known Member

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    So really, you just want every x-men movie to be X2.
     
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  15. Senator Pleasury

    Senator Pleasury Well-Known Member

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    You're right, they were. Even when his parents acted like very open-minded, they were afraid, but it was his brother who was really a mutant hater.

    Anyways, X2 had these touches here and there when it's about the whole society, but X3, far from losing them as you suggested, had a much more comprehensive approach to discrimination and tolerance.
     
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  16. Lord

    Lord All Mighty

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    In quality they should
     
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  17. psylockolussus

    psylockolussus Well-Known Mutant

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    That would be great!
     
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  18. Senator Pleasury

    Senator Pleasury Well-Known Member

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    Most superhero movies are about good guys vs bad guys more than having a comprehensive look of the underlying themes, so you shouldn't be worried.
     
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  19. Rike

    Rike Crazy

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    "X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?"

    [​IMG]
     
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  20. henzINNIT

    henzINNIT Well-Known Member

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    ...nah. I agree on principal I suppose, but TLS failed in execution. These grand themes you've pointed to were passing glances in a film that mostly squandered every opportunity of an interesting conflict.

    Storm, for instance, is as anti-cure as anyone when she hears about the notion, but she immediately forgets about it after her one token "reaction" scene. Seriously, does she even mention it again after that?

    Other characters are used purely as avatars for different view-points, with little characterisation outside of that. Angel gets a great introduction only to be ignored throughout. We don't know anything about him, the only weight in his refusal is the audience's inferred opinion that he shouldn't. This is in stark contrast to poor Rogue, forced to represent the other option despite a troubling love-triangle plot that blurs her life changing decision.

    X2 may be on a smaller scale, but it bears far more weight regardless. Styker is better developed than any human character in TLS. Hell, Bobby's family leaves more impact too.
     
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  21. Lord

    Lord All Mighty

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    The more i think about it, the more i like Stryker's character in X-2, not as memorable as somebody like Magneto, but still an amazing villain.
     
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  22. henzINNIT

    henzINNIT Well-Known Member

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    Great character, and brilliantly played by Brian Cox. It's no surprise that he keeps popping up the in the film series down the line.

    I hope Dinklage follows suit and joins McKellen and Cox as iconic cinematic villains.
     
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  23. Rike

    Rike Crazy

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    :up::up:
     
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  24. jaymes_e06

    jaymes_e06 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
    They could/should have had her have a school assembly and explain to them her position and someone like Beast and Rogue's positions who are or at one time would be for it. She could have had a moving moment where she said something like "It is sad that we live in a world that thinks we are a disease that needs cured."

    Yes I found this praticualarly annoying. And besides them did anyone else ever say anything about the cure other than the ones who where "supposed too" Jean doesn't talk about the cure at all (except in a deleted scene using it against Magneto). You would think more mutants would have a stance and stick too it the entire film. Instead everything feels stagnant and underdeveloped.

    Awesome post man! I agree with everything you said.:up:
     
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    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
  25. Rike

    Rike Crazy

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    This review says it all IMO:
    Ratner ruins ‘X-Men: The Last Stand’
    Film is the ‘X-Men’ equivalent of ‘Godfather III’ — an unworthy successor

     
    #175

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