X-Men - Part 1

Status
Not open for further replies.
You know, Gillen's a pretty good writer. In fact, a lot of the last few writers that the X-Men have had have been pretty good writers....maybe it ain't the writers.....maybe.....It's the X-Men. :o
More like some writers being incapable of producing a good yarn with some characters, for whatever reason.

Literary characters which are not physical cannot actually be at fault for a writer doing a poor job.

Remender and Carey are doing just fine, after all, and taking from a wider and older array of canon than Gillen was.
 
I wouldn't call Scott Lobdell or Fabian Nicenza less that capable. In fact, they were more than capable. The problem was while we when clamoring for the answer to....I'll use the Cable/Stryfe saga here, we got 20 different issues about Rogue and Gambit. When they presented the X-Cutioners Song as the possible resolve to a 2 year old plot thread, it ended up being a swerve and nothing happened. Scott and Jean realized that Cable or Stryfe maybe Scott's son. A few years later in a random issue of Cable we got the answer we already knew (thanks to pre-internet material like Wizard). Swerve it the key word I'm using because that's exactly what we got with Second Coming, a promise of answers to the Hope plot but coming up empty instead.

but the whole Cable/Stryfe thing was created under Lobdell/Nicenza. So your pretty much upset that they didnt resolve their own long plots
 
Not just them, all of them. I used that as an example. There's plenty more that crossed over multiple writers. The editors are totally guilty of this too.

I just wanted to defend Lobdell and Nicenza from being considered inferior writers compared to Claremont because they're not.
 
Lobdell and Niceaza's run on the X-men is better than anything Claremont has written since returning to the franchise 10 years ago
 
Not just them, all of them. I used that as an example. There's plenty more that crossed over multiple writers. The editors are totally guilty of this too.

I just wanted to defend Lobdell and Nicenza from being considered inferior writers compared to Claremont because they're not.

ok i take that back as Lobdell wrote one of my favorite non-Claremont X-men stories...the wedding of Scott and Jean. However I think at this time the mystery-long plot became a marketing point for X-men and everything turned into a mystery...Who is Cable....who is the other Summers brother...is Jean becoming Phoenix again....How does Gambit know Mr Sinister.....(though based on some of his earlier appearances Im pretty sure Gambit had a connection to Longshot more than Scott)
 
More like some writers being incapable of producing a good yarn with some characters, for whatever reason.

Literary characters which are not physical cannot actually be at fault for a writer doing a poor job.

Remender and Carey are doing just fine, after all, and taking from a wider and older array of canon than Gillen was.

Just saying, all these different hands in the pot, a lot of those X-Men characters have reached a point where there's nothing you can really do with them anymore. Rogue, Gambit, Wolverine, Cyke.......I think it might be time to, you know, lose em.
 
Eh. I think what really needs to happen and god I hated it with Spider-Man, but I think it'd actually work here, is for just a damn reset button. Just start over. Ever since Morrison the X-Franchise has just steadily fallen.
 
Just saying, all these different hands in the pot, a lot of those X-Men characters have reached a point where there's nothing you can really do with them anymore. Rogue, Gambit, Wolverine, Cyke.......I think it might be time to, you know, lose em.

A good writer could do wonders with the characters. polish them up and remind people why they love Rogue, Gambit and Wolverine. What makes Wolverine a great character isnt the amount of butt he can kick or how many books he can be on...it that despite his nature telling him to kill everything within arms reach he struggles to be a better person. He's the X-men's Han Solo.
 
Eh. I think what really needs to happen and god I hated it with Spider-Man, but I think it'd actually work here, is for just a damn reset button. Just start over. Ever since Morrison the X-Franchise has just steadily fallen.

because it made no sense to do it to Spidey...his books werent suffering
The X-men need to go back to being a allegory for race/sex relations...we need to see that they are people and not weapons. We need to laugh with them and cry with them....revel in their victories and dispair in their failures
 
Eh. I think what really needs to happen and god I hated it with Spider-Man, but I think it'd actually work here, is for just a damn reset button. Just start over. Ever since Morrison the X-Franchise has just steadily fallen.

See, I was thinking about this more and more lately and I know there's another thread on this already but that would be a BAD idea. The DC 52 relaunch is stupid. A Marvel reset would be equally stupid. The easiest solution would be to be bold and like Anubis suggested drop characters like Cyclops, Wolverine, et all. Bring some secondary people into the spotlight and lose the regulars for a while. Wolverine has 4 other books to lurk in.

Hitting a reset button is a cop out and should be avoided at all costs. Because if the sales #'s don't go your way, it will force you to keep pressing that button until something clicks with the fans. Before you know it the buttons been hit 30 times and it's a mess. Show some stones and get creative. I'm willing to bet if there was an editorial mandate banishing Wolverine from the X-Men for a year, it would seriously peek the interest of the fans.
 
See, I was thinking about this more and more lately and I know there's another thread on this already but that would be a BAD idea. The DC 52 relaunch is stupid. A Marvel reset would be equally stupid. The easiest solution would be to be bold and like Anubis suggested drop characters like Cyclops, Wolverine, et all. Bring some secondary people into the spotlight and lose the regulars for a while. Wolverine has 4 other books to lurk in.

Hitting a reset button is a cop out and should be avoided at all costs. Because if the sales #'s don't go your way, it will force you to keep pressing that button until something clicks with the fans. Before you know it the buttons been hit 30 times and it's a mess. Show some stones and get creative. I'm willing to bet if there was an editorial mandate banishing Wolverine from the X-Men for a year, it would seriously peek the interest of the fans.

i mentioned this last page and it was shot down....it would be kool for some of the other X-men to get some spot light
 
Well it's been proven that you could do an x-book without making wolverine front and center and it could still be a critical and commercial success. Joss Whedon's astonishing x-men was like the best selling x-book of the last decade and he barely used wolverine. Now granted Whedon's name probably helped the book's sales alot but it still provided a formula that works i think and proved you don't have to make wolvie front and center every time.
 
If characters like Spider-man, Thor, Ironman, etc can exist for sixty years and be the primary focus of multiple books staring them, then why can't Cyclops, Wolverine, Rogue, etc do the same in a team book where they share focus? All it takes is a great writer who clicks with the characters they're writing. Creating many new characters will just convolute the stories.

You could tell that Morrison enjoyed writing characters like Emma, and was interested in changing Scott's outlook on life. And that made the book extremely interesting and successful. What does Gillen care about?
 
Last edited:
Gillen hasn't been around that long. Give the guy some time before passing judgement.

The Astonishing example for Wolverine is a little tough to swallow. The team only had 5-6 members. And Whedon's name on the book had more of an impact that you'd think. I had no idea who the guy was at the time and no idea why everyone was freaking out about him writing the book. I had to google him...true story.
 
I think the development has actually been okay.

For years, the X-Men lived at Xavier's school (which was no longer a school) as a traditional super hero team.
Eventually, the school opened its doors again as a school and it swelled.
Mutants were overtaking the human population (this was losing the original feel and had to be rectified)
House of M and "No More Mutants" put the X-Men back to their roots as being a small group in the world, but without the anonymity they originally had. They were sort of a safe haven and a super hero team at the same time, akin to Avengers and FF.

Moving them to Utopia fits. It establishes their territory not being in New York, it splits the mutants off, it makes them a super hero group with a base and also still a school for younger mutants to learn to control their powers, but they don't focus on that side so much.

Cyclops has developed tremendously in this time, whether its a development you like or hate. He's become a general thinking of survival for his people. That's his main goal and it's a good direction for him to be taken. If Hope proves to genuinely trigger the slow emergence of mutants again, Cyclops could move towards Xavier's dream again, but right now that's not the focus. I like the new direction of Cyclops being the hardened veteran, though I think having him employ the X-Force hit squad was too much. I don't care for him with Emma and I think Jean's last death was unnecessary and she would have been an excellent character through these past years, providing the moral compass and compassion against Scott's having to make hard decisions.

Wolverine has been horribly lost since they decided to reveal his origins. He's always been on the edge of going too far, but he doesn't. His purpose in X-Men was to take the punishment, but think back in the 90s. Since someone mentioned it, the X-Cutioner's Song. When they're on the moon after a fight, Wolverine's laying on the ground and says "Gimme a minute...punctured a lung." Okay, so he's stabbed, beaten, cut, and punctured a lung. That's gonna need a bit, just hold on. Now he's riddled with bullets and burned half to a skeleton and recovers in a few minutes. They've just taken him too far. They've also focused too much on Wolverine the Black Ops soldier. Yes, Wolverine will kill without hesitation if he feels necessary. He'll kill a whole mess o' ninjas. But he's not a murderer that just hunts down to kill. They've lost the samurai side of Logan and focus on him seeking revenge against anyone who hurts him.

What the X-Men are really missing is this:
When did any of them last go out to a bar? (There was one they regularly went to in the old days near the mansion, I forget the name)
When was the last time they played baseball or basketball?
When were they last seen in a recreational situation, watching a movie?
When did the X-Men last feel like actual people?

When did the X-Men last matter to the Marvel Universe? Spider-Man events might come up in Iron Man or Avengers. When has anything in X-Men last tied in to anything in MU?

And there's the problem. If Wolverine is going to be an Avenger, make him an Avenger, not X-Men x2, solo work, X-23's mentor, Jubilee's guardian, and an Avenger. I realize that a full 12 month story arc can take place over the course of an in-story month or even less, but that's something to consider.

Establish teams and stick to them. In the 90s, I loved X-Men.
X-Men: Blue Team
Uncanny X-Men: Gold Team
Wolverine: Solo adventure/mission occasionally with X-Men involvement (and often Jubilee)

You also had X-Factor, X-Force, Generation X and Excalibur. Six different team books available to sort characters into and you could follow the ones you liked. It worked!

This worked. What didn't work in the 90s was having Spider-Man in 6 or more different titles following 6 different plots or weaving in and out of one another.

I don't think the characters are really stale, I think it's too much attempt to keep drawing things out and sticking to the old. They're trying to reboot without rebooting instead of moving forward (the same thing that Spider-Man ran into, only they genuinely rebooted and are now rehashing old stories instead of moving forward).

Cyclops and Emma. What's the deal? Are they in love or is it just convenient? No talk of marriage and how much is Jean still on his mind?

Wolverine. Despite regaining his memory and past, the writers have made him more of an animal now than he was before. Where's the samurai? Granted, they might work on this in the new ATROCIOUSLY TITLED Wolverine & The X-Men (is that replacing X-Men Legacy?).

Rogue. Enough with the commitment issues and toying with a Magneto/Rogue/Gambit love triangle. We all know Rogue & Gambit are the couple. The fans know it, they want it. Move on. Hook them up, marry them, continue on.

Interlude: Why are comic book writers terrified of love and marriage? Why can we not have a married pair o' super heroes? We have to destroy Jean & Scott having him cheat on her with Emma? We can't write a supporting, loving marriage between MJ and Peter? About the only marriage left in comics is Reed and Sue, though I don't read FF myself. Does love alienate readers? Can they not relate to the difficulties of marriage and the effort it takes to make it work? What, no readers are married? No, it's just more convenient to have them sleep with someone until another story comes along and we can break them up for "drama" to hook them up with someone else.
Anyway...

Magneto/Xavier: They're both on Utopia, but we haven't seen any further interaction between the friends turned enemies turned friends in forever. Where do their ideologies lie? Certainly Prelude to Schism establishes they both see Cyclops as developing to take their place, but what does that mean to them and to their separate views on "the dream"?

Iceman, or a replacement: Who is the team's comic relief? Who is the one that keeps them smiling? There's no real established role for this.

Establish the mysteries and resolve them within 12 issues. During that time, sure, add some new dangling plot threads, but dig into those in due time. Some can be left hanging. I always liked "the third Summers" when it was hinted at and fans speculated on it, but nothing confirmed.

How long did they dangle the Wolverine/Sabertooth are father/son or brothers angle without really closing it? Some plot teases can work as just that: a tease.

The characters aren't boring, it's that the writers, or more likely the PTB at Marvel such as Joe Q, don't want characters to develop, grow, and move forward. They're moving forward with the ongoing story of the X-Men fairly well, but the characters themselves are sort of being kept in limbo. It's like you have a plot that's moving forward while characters keep standing still.

And just since others have mentioned it:
Personally, I hate Grant Morrison's run and everything he did with the X-Men. The comic that inspired the movie became the comic mimicking the movie and went on to tell us Xavier was a murderer before he was born, Cyclops is cheating on the woman he's loved since we met the X-Men, and I won't forgive him for giving me Beak or Kid Omega, both of whom I hated. I didn't like them when I was reading those books and I don't like them looking back on them. The "Magneto was Right" storyline was interesting, but having Magneto decapitated? You know that's not going to stick around and it makes it hard to address. So we got the imposter Magneto and Xorn mess out of it down the road.
 
Last edited:
Whedon's Astonishing was my favorite take on the X-men in the last 10 years.Although honestly I thought Messiah Complex was a great crossover.
 
I think the development has actually been okay.

For years, the X-Men lived at Xavier's school (which was no longer a school) as a traditional super hero team.
Eventually, the school opened its doors again as a school and it swelled.
Mutants were overtaking the human population (this was losing the original feel and had to be rectified)
House of M and "No More Mutants" put the X-Men back to their roots as being a small group in the world, but without the anonymity they originally had. They were sort of a safe haven and a super hero team at the same time, akin to Avengers and FF.

Moving them to Utopia fits. It establishes their territory not being in New York, it splits the mutants off, it makes them a super hero group with a base and also still a school for younger mutants to learn to control their powers, but they don't focus on that side so much.

Cyclops has developed tremendously in this time, whether its a development you like or hate. He's become a general thinking of survival for his people. That's his main goal and it's a good direction for him to be taken. If Hope proves to genuinely trigger the slow emergence of mutants again, Cyclops could move towards Xavier's dream again, but right now that's not the focus. I like the new direction of Cyclops being the hardened veteran, though I think having him employ the X-Force hit squad was too much. I don't care for him with Emma and I think Jean's last death was unnecessary and she would have been an excellent character through these past years, providing the moral compass and compassion against Scott's having to make hard decisions.

Wolverine has been horribly lost since they decided to reveal his origins. He's always been on the edge of going too far, but he doesn't. His purpose in X-Men was to take the punishment, but think back in the 90s. Since someone mentioned it, the X-Cutioner's Song. When they're on the moon after a fight, Wolverine's laying on the ground and says "Gimme a minute...punctured a lung." Okay, so he's stabbed, beaten, cut, and punctured a lung. That's gonna need a bit, just hold on. Now he's riddled with bullets and burned half to a skeleton and recovers in a few minutes. They've just taken him too far. They've also focused too much on Wolverine the Black Ops soldier. Yes, Wolverine will kill without hesitation if he feels necessary. He'll kill a whole mess o' ninjas. But he's not a murderer that just hunts down to kill. They've lost the samurai side of Logan and focus on him seeking revenge against anyone who hurts him.

What the X-Men are really missing is this:
When did any of them last go out to a bar? (There was one they regularly went to in the old days near the mansion, I forget the name)
When was the last time they played baseball or basketball?
When were they last seen in a recreational situation, watching a movie?
When did the X-Men last feel like actual people?

When did the X-Men last matter to the Marvel Universe? Spider-Man events might come up in Iron Man or Avengers. When has anything in X-Men last tied in to anything in MU?

And there's the problem. If Wolverine is going to be an Avenger, make him an Avenger, not X-Men x2, solo work, X-23's mentor, Jubilee's guardian, and an Avenger. I realize that a full 12 month story arc can take place over the course of an in-story month or even less, but that's something to consider.

Establish teams and stick to them. In the 90s, I loved X-Men.
X-Men: Blue Team
Uncanny X-Men: Gold Team
Wolverine: Solo adventure/mission occasionally with X-Men involvement (and often Jubilee)

This worked. What didn't work in the 90s was having Spider-Man in 6 or more different titles following 6 different plots or weaving in and out of one another.

I don't think the characters are really stale, I think it's too much attempt to keep drawing things out and sticking to the old. They're trying to reboot without rebooting instead of moving forward (the same thing that Spider-Man ran into, only they genuinely rebooted and are now rehashing old stories instead of moving forward).

Cyclops and Emma. What's the deal? Are they in love or is it just convenient? No talk of marriage and how much is Jean still on his mind?

Wolverine. Despite regaining his memory and past, the writers have made him more of an animal now than he was before. Where's the samurai? Granted, they might work on this in the new ATROCIOUSLY TITLED Wolverine & The X-Men (is that replacing X-Men Legacy?).

Rogue. Enough with the commitment issues and toying with a Magneto/Rogue/Gambit love triangle. We all know Rogue & Gambit are the couple. The fans know it, they want it. Move on. Hook them up, marry them, continue on.

Interlude: Why are comic book writers terrified of love and marriage? Why can we not have a married pair o' super heroes? We have to destroy Jean & Scott having him cheat on her with Emma? We can't write a supporting, loving marriage between MJ and Peter? About the only marriage left in comics is Reed and Sue, though I don't read FF myself. Does love alienate readers? Can they not relate to the difficulties of marriage and the effort it takes to make it work? What, no readers are married? No, it's just more convenient to have them sleep with someone until another story comes along and we can break them up for "drama" to hook them up with someone else.
Anyway...

Magneto/Xavier: They're both on Utopia, but we haven't seen any further interaction between the friends turned enemies turned friends in forever. Where do their ideologies lie? Certainly Prelude to Schism establishes they both see Cyclops as developing to take their place, but what does that mean to them and to their separate views on "the dream"?

Iceman, or a replacement: Who is the team's comic relief? Who is the one that keeps them smiling? There's no real established role for this.

Establish the mysteries and resolve them within 12 issues. During that time, sure, add some new dangling plot threads, but dig into those in due time. Some can be left hanging. I always liked "the third Summers" when it was hinted at and fans speculated on it, but nothing confirmed.

How long did they dangle the Wolverine/Sabertooth are father/son or brothers angle without really closing it? Some plot teases can work as just that: a tease.

The characters aren't boring, it's that the writers, or more likely the PTB at Marvel such as Joe Q, don't want characters to develop, grow, and move forward. They're moving forward with the ongoing story of the X-Men fairly well, but the characters themselves are sort of being kept in limbo. It's like you have a plot that's moving forward while characters keep standing still.

And just since others have mentioned it:
Personally, I hate Grant Morrison and everything he did with the X-Men. The comic that inspired the movie became the comic mimicking the movie and went on to tell us Xavier was a murderer before he was born, Cyclops is cheating on the woman he's loved since we met the X-Men, and I won't forgive him for giving me Beak or Kid Omega, both of whom I hated. I didn't like them when I was reading those books and I don't like them looking back on them.


well said
and its Harry's Hideaway if i remember correctly
 
Wasn't there some sort of interview or panel a while back where some fan asked an editor (maybe Nick Lowe) about the X-Men's family dynamic, and they replied the X-Men are no longer supposed to be a family?

I think the conscious effort to turn the X-Men into an army isn't really working in their favor.
 
Gillen hasn't been around that long. Give the guy some time before passing judgement.

The Astonishing example for Wolverine is a little tough to swallow. The team only had 5-6 members. And Whedon's name on the book had more of an impact that you'd think. I had no idea who the guy was at the time and no idea why everyone was freaking out about him writing the book. I had to google him...true story.

Actually believe it or not i didnt know who whedon was either when i was reading astonishing x-men. I remember reading amazing reviews about the book and giving it a shot and then thinking "DAMN, whoever this guy is he REALLY gets the x-men and is writing the hell out of this!". It was only later i found out who Whedon was and how much of a legend he is around geeks.
 
Wasn't there some sort of interview or panel a while back where some fan asked an editor (maybe Nick Lowe) about the X-Men's family dynamic, and they replied the X-Men are no longer supposed to be a family?

I think the conscious effort to turn the X-Men into an army isn't really working in their favor.
What's wrong with it?
 
Morrison's run doesn't deserve the reputation of destroying what everyone liked about the X-men. While I love Scott and Jean together, so many people were just bored by their relationship, and it couldn't go any more forward narratively. What Morrison did was add depth to the psyche of the characters involved in these relationships.

Beak and the special class were a great addition because it showed that Xavier's school is a positive force in these students lives. They were uncomfortably ugly and had useless powers (which is why people hate them), but they made friends and relationships and the school was the only place they could do that.

Jean dying at the hands of Magneto (as was Morrison's intention) was the metaphorical conclusion to the ideological clash between Magneto and Xavier. Magneto turned out to be "wrong" and Xavier's dream could be passed on to Scott without Jean holding his hand. It also opened up the door for more phoenix story lines (I for one am enjoying the ride to find out Hope's connection with Jean).

While I miss Jean a lot, Morrison didn't kill the family. He wasn't responsible for M-Day, busses full of students getting blown up, tragedy after tragedy, baby hunting, death squads, and Beast's departure.

It's intentionally dark times for the X-men, it's what the editors want, and it's temporary.
 
Again, what's wrong with it is the lack of exploration.

Okay, we're moving away from the family dynamic and towards the concept of an army. How do the characters develop and how do they react?

Cyclops has clearly taken on the role of general. Wolverine is essentially a hitman, though he's shown some of his moral foundation in opposing Laura being on X-Force.

But an army is very structured with ranks and levels of command. If Cyclops is the new Xavier at the head of this army, who is the unquestioned field leader for each unit? Who are the lieutenants? What is everyone's role?

Beast left over this new direction. Storm said they'd have a discussion regarding X-Force but I don't recall that developing. As someone else said, Emma's too supportive of the new Scott and there's not counter-balance there.

Where does Gambit fit and how does he feel? We're seeing him in X-23, but that's more focused on his concern for Laura. How does Colossus, their power house, feel about this? As a Russian, is Scott's leadership style more akin to communist Russia Peter once saw?

I think X-Men has become big on adventure and plot, light on character development. Regardless of the family dynamic or army, each character should still feel like a person and I don't get that feeling quite as much anymore.
 
While I love Scott and Jean together, so many people were just bored by their relationship, and it couldn't go any more forward narratively. What Morrison did was add depth to the psyche of the characters involved in these relationships.

I disagree with this. For some reason all of a sudden marriage is the end of characterization. Had Scott and Jean been written with the same enthusiasm as Scott and Emma it wouldnt be boring.

and if you arent a fan of Scott, Emma or Logan you are playing a $3.99 game of Where's Waldo...."Oh look Bobby's in the background."
 
Last edited:
Agreed.

Morrison didn't explore new areas of their psyche, he pulled a move that's just as bad in writing as it is in a real relationship. "Bored now. Dump her and move on to something new and exciting."

Cyke and Jean were on different teams. They might be a couple, but they're still individuals. Comic writers are terrified of marriage. They think it locks them in and they can't do cool stuff anymore.

I'll agree Beak and the Special Class had their place and the "useless powers" is interesting to explore. She's not an X-Character, but Squirrel Girl makes me chuckle just thinking of her and she's....pretty useless power-wise. I just still didn't like Beak. ;)

I hated Kid Omega, but that might prove Morrison was spot on since I think he wanted readers to dislike him.

I'm enjoying the Hope story, particularly Messiah Complex, but I felt like we had gotten to a good place with Jean and her death meant, *groan* yes there would be more Phoenix stories in the future, which I felt were growing cliche. We'll see how this Hope angle plays out, but I don't think it was worth how we got here.

As I said, dark times or no, the X-Men should still be people. Even if there's a more "army" angle, they should still want to go out to eat, work on their car, watch baseball on TV, or anything else soldiers think about doing when they're on active duty and try to do when they're on leave.
 
I disagree with this. For some reason all of a sudden marriage is the end of characterization. Had Scott and Jean been written with the same enthusiasm as Scott and Emma it wouldnt be boring.

and if you arent a fan of Scott, Emma or Logan you are playing a $3.99 game of Where's Waldo...."Oh look Bobby's in the background."
I also disagree. Morrison was the first writer to get them post Scott's return (not counting Lobdell's interim run). One thing that could have and should have been explored was Scott merging with Apocalypse. He's been a long time enemy to Scott and Jean for years so potentially having her husband carry a residual piece of him is something they could have dealt with together. She knows what it was like to be corrupted by darkness. What if Scott showed signs of possibly going down that path? Flip the switch and have have the shoes on opposite sides. Thats one angle that could have been taken with them. What Morisson did was lazy in that he didnt do anything with them. THey barely spent anytime together during his run. She goes on a world tour with Xavier and when she comes back, she finds out about him and Emma. He runs away without actually talking or dealing with their problems and next time he sees her, she's dead. The whole marriage was handled wrong and I would have prefered for some more interaction between the two. There was never any investment in them and they were practically treated as if they were single instead of an item.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Staff online

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
202,268
Messages
22,077,393
Members
45,876
Latest member
Crazygamer3011
Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"