X-Men - Part 5

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[Donnie Darko]

Interview with Claremont regarding his status with Marvel and some thoughts on X-Men...

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/chris-claremont-comics-prose.html

 

[Havok83]

I respect everything he did with Jean Grey and the Phoenix and its a travesty what Marvel did with that last year

 

[Manic]

Wasn't Claremont's original intention for the Dark Phoenix to just be Jean? And even when he retconned the Phoenix into a force that possessed Jean, it seems like he stuck with the idea that the Dark Phoenix was mostly Jean's own dark half (mostly brought out by the White Queen and Mastermind) instead of just some cosmic entity with a thirst for chaos. That's why someone like Rachel Summers used the Phoenix Force for years without ever going as far as Jean did.

Really, it's a damn shame the way the Phoenix Force and Jean have been treated.

 

[Donnie Darko]

His plan, I believe, was to have Phoenix be Jean, and have her somehow save the universe after going Dark or "depower" a bit from the Phoenix. She and Cyclops would have left the X-Men, at least for a while, I THINK. Editorial/Marvel told him she had to die for what she did, so he killed her. When they (Marvel) wanted to bring her back for X-Factor (which was, at one point, going to be the original four guys and Dazzler, if Jean was still dead), they brought her back in Fantastic Four. This also made Cyclops look like a prick because he leaves his wife and newborn to run back to Jean, which Claremont did not like.

Like I said, this is all stuff I am trying to remember correctly, so my facts could be a little off.

 

[Manic]

I think Claremont's original plan was for Jean to lose her powers completely before she and Scott left the X-Men together. But you're right about editorial demanding that she be killed off.

Madelyne was never supposed to be more than a substitute for Jean in Scott's happy ending.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Damn that sucks for Jean... My fave character from the comics and movies getting ripped off. I should read some of Claremont's stuff. Thing is though, I am so far behind I don't know what to do.

 

[Donnie Darko]

Most of what I am going off is what I read in Marvel Comics: The Untold Story. Seems like a lot of people got jerked around at Marvel over the years.

It's so weird to think that for decades, there was only one X-Men title, and then it was always such a big deal when they rolled out a new one (New Mutants, X-Factor).

 

[JewishHobbit]

Claremont also intended that, when Cyclops and Madelyne married and moved to Alaska, that was supposed to be a perminant retirement. He never intended for Cyclops to come back to the X-Men. He did his time, and now it was time to move on to the next generation. Marvel, obviously, had other plans.

While I love the original 5 X-Men, I think Claremont had the right idea. Progression... imagine that.

Damn that sucks for Jean... My fave character from the comics and movies getting ripped off. I should read some of Claremont's stuff. Thing is though, I am so far behind I don't know what to do.

The easiest and cheapest thing to do (outside of downloaded, which is frowned upon) is to pick up the Essential trades. They're black and white with fairly cheap paper, but the stories are there and you can get large chunks of the stories in one sitting. Also, because of the cheaper quality, the price is great.

Personally, if you don't mind old hokey art, I'd start with the essentials for Classic X-Men, which I believe is from when X-Men began, and work through those. I can't imagine that'd be more than 2 or 3 trades. Then Claremont's run, and the second generation of X-Men, began with the X-Men Essential trades, and I know those go up through Claremont's entire run and the beginning of the 90s revamp. Somewhere in there you'll see that X-Factor begins so you can start getting those Essentials also. There aren't many that cover the original 5 days. After that it becomes a different team (part of the 90s relaunch) so that's up to you if you want to continue it. The same with New Mutants.

That's my recommendation. I also recommend getting the most recent printing of Essentials because they include more stuff, including important minis, annuals, and one-shots that the older prints of Essentials left out.

 

[Donnie Darko]

Claremont also intended that, when Cyclops and Madelyne married and moved to Alaska, that was supposed to be a perminant retirement. He never intended for Cyclops to come back to the X-Men. He did his time, and now it was time to move on to the next generation. Marvel, obviously, had other plans.

While I love the original 5 X-Men, I think Claremont had the right idea. Progression... imagine that.

Yeah, I forgot how he worded it, but it was something like how they ruined "his happily ever after" or how Cyclops was supposed to "ride off into the sunset," something like that.

 

[Havok83]

Claremont also intended that, when Cyclops and Madelyne married and moved to Alaska, that was supposed to be a perminant retirement. He never intended for Cyclops to come back to the X-Men. He did his time, and now it was time to move on to the next generation. Marvel, obviously, had other plans.

While I love the original 5 X-Men, I think Claremont had the right idea. Progression... imagine that.

No CC was wrong with that and Marvel was right to intervene. I cant imagine Cyclops never going back to being a hero after he was married. Permanent retirement doesnt work especially for such an important character. It was good in theory but thats not something that should have stuck long term and thankfully it didnt. It reminds me of the Spiderman situation when they had BR as Spidey and tried to have Peter retire and just live a normal life. Can you imagine if they tried that with Captain America or Iron Man?

 

[chamber-music]

I'm not in favour of permanently retiring a major character like that. Charles Xavier I think they could of retired and occassionally had X-Men visit him for advice or whatever but not a character like cyclops.

Claremont wanted Sabertooth to be Wolverine's father as well. Marvel should of just made Dog Logon Sabertooth imo.

 

[Manic]

I disagree. While I don't think retiring a character like Spider-Man or Captain America would work, I'm not against retiring a character in an ensemble cast. It's not as cheap as killing them off, and that means their inevitable return years later would be much less stupid.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Claremont also intended that, when Cyclops and Madelyne married and moved to Alaska, that was supposed to be a perminant retirement. He never intended for Cyclops to come back to the X-Men. He did his time, and now it was time to move on to the next generation. Marvel, obviously, had other plans.

While I love the original 5 X-Men, I think Claremont had the right idea. Progression... imagine that.



The easiest and cheapest thing to do (outside of downloaded, which is frowned upon) is to pick up the Essential trades. They're black and white with fairly cheap paper, but the stories are there and you can get large chunks of the stories in one sitting. Also, because of the cheaper quality, the price is great.

Personally, if you don't mind old hokey art, I'd start with the essentials for Classic X-Men, which I believe is from when X-Men began, and work through those. I can't imagine that'd be more than 2 or 3 trades. Then Claremont's run, and the second generation of X-Men, began with the X-Men Essential trades, and I know those go up through Claremont's entire run and the beginning of the 90s revamp. Somewhere in there you'll see that X-Factor begins so you can start getting those Essentials also. There aren't many that cover the original 5 days. After that it becomes a different team (part of the 90s relaunch) so that's up to you if you want to continue it. The same with New Mutants.

That's my recommendation. I also recommend getting the most recent printing of Essentials because they include more stuff, including important minis, annuals, and one-shots that the older prints of Essentials left out.

Okay... I'll check it out with my local comic book store this weekend, I guess.

 

[Donnie Darko]

I disagree. While I don't think retiring a character like Spider-Man or Captain America would work, I'm not against retiring a character in an ensemble cast. It's not as cheap as killing them off, and that means their inevitable return years later would be much less stupid.

I think this is a really good way of looking at it. It allows you to put a character in limbo without people wondering why a certain character just disappeared from the team for no reason.

 

[Havok83]

I disagree. While I don't think retiring a character like Spider-Man or Captain America would work, I'm not against retiring a character in an ensemble cast. It's not as cheap as killing them off, and that means their inevitable return years later would be much less stupid.

thats what breaks are for. You dont have to kill a character off in order for them to take a step back once in a while. Scott had a good break from the Xmen with Jean in the late 90s where they left to go live in Alaska for a while but there were always plans for them to eventually return (which they did.) Thats how it should work; not permanent, this character has moved on and is done for good

 

[Manic]

I know it's just my modern cynicism talking, but there's no way a "permanent" retirement would stick (despite what the writer who did it had in mind), so I don't see the problem.

 

[BoredGuy]

If they're ever gunna have any of the young heroes grow up into full blown X-Men or Avengers, it makes sense some heroes would also get older and retire.

Not everyone has to die some heroic death
Nick Fury (the real one) is practically retired now, and it might not be a bad idea for Frank Castle to retire, that guy needs more than a few years off.

If it means they could finally age Franklin Richards past 10 years old, I'd be down for some early retirements

 

[Donnie Darko]

Not everyone has to die some heroic death
Nick Fury (the real one) is practically retired now, and it might not be a bad idea for Frank Castle to retire, that guy needs more than a few years off.

Punisher has died a couple of times now, it seems, with none of them sticking. I think I would really like it if Marvel established like an "Earth 2" that allowed characters to age and pass the torch (not a full-blown FUTURE series, but phasing people out over time). I think it would be interesting to see.

 

[chamber-music]

Certain characters I can just never see Marvel, DC or fans ever letting them retire. Peter Parker, Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, Wolverine, ect.

New Mutants transitioned into adult X-Men well enough.

 

[Manic]

I think what allows the X-Men to keep aging so well is that the Original 5 were only 14-19 when they first started. They don't feel "too old" now that they're circling 30. And in that time, the New Mutants and Kitty were all allowed to hit their 20's. And if the X-Men were in their own little bubble of the Marvel Universe, I could see them all aging a lot more in the future.

However, because Marvel wants to keep Spider-Man feeling like a hip young 20-something forever and they wouldn't dare let Franklin Richards hit puberty, you can see everyone's aging process slowing down. It's all well and good for some of the older characters to become middle aged (I think Bruce Banner has an adult daughter running around out there), but they're holding everyone back for the sake of a handful of characters they're uncomfortable aging.

 

[Panthro]

I think Claremont's original plan was for Jean to lose her powers completely before she and Scott left the X-Men together. But you're right about editorial demanding that she be killed off.

Madelyne was never supposed to be more than a substitute for Jean in Scott's happy ending.

Having Scott marry a lookalike of his dead girlfriend was pretty stupid though. Someone really should have pointed that out to Claremont.

 

[chamber-music]

Hank Pym was attracted to Janet because she looked like his dead wife Maria. These days your lucky if they aren't dating an robot or a alien.

 

[Donnie Darko]

I guess it really depends on the alien, but I am not sure clone is much better.