Justice League Zack Snyder Directing Justice League - Part 8

[Jekecy]

I think Snyder’s “vision” would have been a lot less chastised if there was a mainline connected DC movie universe that stayed a little closer to the core values of each character going on during the same time as his 5 movie arc. So we’d have a DC Universe done similarly to marvel’s stuff for the mainstream and you can do all the weird crazy stuff under the elseworlds label.

Like it’s ok to do different stuff with characters, but for them to be the only DC movies in town probably didn’t do them any favors.

I don't even think it's a matter of mainline vs elseworlds. Rather, timing by building the goodwill to allow the masses to go with you on a crazy ride featuring their beloved characters.

If Snyder's JL-trilogy story came in the 2nd or 3rd phase of a DCEU, those plots elements could have rocked people's worlds. Never underestimate brand goodwill and the excitement in the unexplored. But there's just no way you can ask the studio to keep pumping money into your productions when there has been a clear backlash against your direction after only 2 movies.

I've seen some fans act like they did to Snyder what Sony/Arad did to Raimi with SM3. MOS and BvS were divisive productions at best, unlike Raimi who had undisputed back-to-back acclaimed blockbusters. I don't have enough words for when Snyder said "a vocal minority" spearheaded the negative publicity. As if a minority crowd could dictate publications, box office totals, and online discourse.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Yeah they took a big risk telling stories like this right off the bat

From a money making/brand protection standpoint, I don’t think some people here realize that they probably stuck with this guy for longer than they should have. The way it ended probably leaves a lot to be desired, but a lot of studios probably would have let him go and looked to someone else after Man of Steel I bet.

 

[2kt09]

Yeah they took a big risk telling stories like this right off the bat

From a money making/brand protection standpoint, I don’t think some people here realize that they probably stuck with this guy for longer than they should have. The way it ended probably leaves a lot to be desired, but a lot of studios probably would have let him go and looked to someone else after Man of Steel I bet.

You mean the Superman movie that made the most Superman money since the 70s
If anything, they probably figured MoS would do Watchmen - Superman Returns $$, and they'd scrounge toward something else since this is attempt number 3 after Green Lantern & Jonah Hex.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Yeah i’ll give you that one to an extent, but them sticking with him after BvS didnt really come close to the number that they probably anticipated still makes me scratch my head.

god forbid they delayed JL so they could get someone else in there and Kevin Tsujihara wouldn’t get his bonus in time.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

And If their expectations for a Superman movie were that low from the start and they consider what MOS did as an over performance, then I’m glad that guys like Jeff Robinov and Kevin Tsujihara are gone, because that’s a chump’s mentality.

Hopefully the next studio head aims higher and brings in the right talent for the character this time.

 

[LoganGambit87]

after reading all of what zack has said sorry but i am so glad he is no longer part of the dceu

the fact that he wanted to kill lois lane pisses me off

and his batman comments were so terrible

 

[Micromind]

meh. marvels doing the build up thing. lets go balls to the walls from the get go. we've gotten plenty of lois and clark to care about that.

Just picturing Knightmare Batman with a busted Cyborg and Knightmare Flash all planning to travel back in time in what would have to be the Knightmare batcave. which I would've loved to have seen!!

Marvel's method of buildup obviously works but I think they overdid it, I don't care about half of those movies, so I would be fine without most of the solo movies.

Three or four movies establishing the main heroes and leading into a Justice League movie should be enough. We don't need 20 movie buildup over a period of 11 years to go into the main event movie, that's absurd.

 

[heatvision38]

I don't even think it's a matter of mainline vs elseworlds. Rather, timing by building the goodwill to allow the masses to go with you on a crazy ride featuring their beloved characters.

If Snyder's JL-trilogy story came in the 2nd or 3rd phase of a DCEU, those plots elements could have rocked people's worlds. Never underestimate brand goodwill and the excitement in the unexplored. But there's just no way you can ask the studio to keep pumping money into your productions when there has been a clear backlash against your direction after only 2 movies.

I've seen some fans act like they did to Snyder what Sony/Arad did to Raimi with SM3. MOS and BvS were divisive productions at best, unlike Raimi who had undisputed back-to-back acclaimed blockbusters. I don't have enough words for when Snyder said "a vocal minority" spearheaded the negative publicity. As if a minority crowd could dictate publications, box office totals, and online discourse.

He was being sarcastic about that last part, self-deprecating. He knows it's much more than a vocal minority. Listen to the way he said it.

 

[chintai80]

Marvel's method of buildup obviously works but I think they overdid it, I don't care about half of those movies, so I would be fine without most of the solo movies.

Three or four movies establishing the main heroes and leading into a Justice League movie should be enough. We don't need 20 movie buildup over a period of 11 years to go into the main event movie, that's absurd.

i feel the same. i like the mcu but my patience was wearing thin on the leadup to IW.
people got things to do. we aint got time to go through 6-7 different teases of thanos lol

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Marvel announcing that big slate beforehand kind of undermined the importance of each movie leading up to the big avengers 2 parter.

I’d like to go back to when movies just got announced and came out shortly after. The years of anticipation certainly created a kind of exhaustion. But I do appreciate a certain amount of time spent with characters/level of build up, because unless it’s done really well or at least feels somewhat feels earned, the whole thing just feels rushed and cheap.

 

[kguillou]

Thats the thing with Marvel’s whole methodology thats both brilliant and frustrating, their movies are each building blocks for the next one and while in the grand scheme its innovative and ambitious it could also lead to disappointing filmgoing experiences when you regard each film as its own entity. Sometimes their movies feel like theyre just going through the motions to get to something better down the line and therefore not satisfying. Their movies often end with “to be continued” rather than “the end.”

For better or worse I like that DC takes the traditional approach to movie making, each film is its own FILM. Theyre each their own standalone entities that want to tell their own epic stories and yes, that goes for Shazam too. I like feeling satisfied when I leave a movie, i dont want to always have to be waiting for the next thing. Sometimes its nice to revel and talk about and dissect the thing you just watched. BvS is the only one thats really guilty of doing the whole “this’ll pay off in the next one” thing but even BvS, the directors cut at least, had its own epic story it was trying to tell.

 

[Jekecy]

He was being sarcastic about that last part, self-deprecating. He knows it's much more than a vocal minority. Listen to the way he said it.

I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. But when I'm looking at his other comments responding to the criticism and being surrounded by your most loyal fanbase, even if it was sarcasm it came off like the other side of the aisle wasn't worth giving time to.

Marvel announcing that big slate beforehand kind of undermined the importance of each movie leading up to the big avengers 2 parter.

In what way? I can only think of maybe one or two films leading up to IW that were a bit like a cheap gateway drug to the big finale. But the other films stood on their own just fine.

 

[chintai80]

so human and relatable.
if i made a superman movie it would be like this tweet.

slice of life. in the day of one clark kent aka kal el.

Clark wakes up 5:00am sharp to get ready for work. Still use to those Kansas farmer hours.
He cooks himself an omelette for breakfast - he uses 50 eggs. All done and eaten within a minute.

On his way to work he spots an elderly woman about to cross the street in the way of an oncoming bus - he uses his super speed to save her. Before she can thank him he rushes into work.

At the Daily Planet, Clark spends the day reading his email. He eats a bagel and takes a dump.

He leaves 30 minutes early so he can go collect rent from a brownstone he rents out. The tenant pays Clark all cash so he doesn’t report this income on his taxes.

In the evening, he has dinner with Lois at a fancy restaurant that he booked months in advance. Even though his lobster was a bit overcooked he still paid their server a 20% tip because his parents taught him well and he’s nice like that.

Clark and Lois walk back to her apartment. Usually she’d invite him upstairs but she has an early morning assignment tomorrow and Clark says he has a few more reports he needs to finish up on tonight. They share a kiss goodnight.

As Clark walks down the street to wait for a cab, he gets a call. It’s Bruce. The Justice League needs Superman’s help. Parasite has taken over an energy plant across in South Korea. It has become a hostage situation.

Clark flies off and rendevouz with the League at the plant. It is engulfed in flames.
Mr. Terrific is monitoring the situation from the Watchtower and Batman coordinates their plan of attack.

Martian Manhunter and Flash protect and evacuate the plant workers being held hostage. Superman, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman are able to make quick work of Parasite and subdue him.
Superman puts out the fires with his freeze breathe.

With the battle won and hostages saved, the heroes stand victorious.

Clark then uses his x-ray vision to get a peek of Wonder Woman’s bare foots under her boots.

A sly smile breaks across Superman’s face as he winks into the camera.

End credits roll.

 

[MbJ]

The Clark Kent on Pornhub short film will win an Oscar.

 

[heatvision38]

I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. But when I'm looking at his other comments responding to the criticism and being surrounded by your most loyal fanbase, even if it was sarcasm it came off like the other side of the aisle wasn't worth giving time to.

He was asked about the reactions to the movie. He was joking that it was only a small minority that disliked it. He made a few references to this in a self-deprecating way. Whether he agrees with those who did not like it or not is a different thing. I'm sure he still believes in what he did, but that doesn't mean he can't make a joke about the reaction people had to BvS.

And you're right, the audience was made of people who like what he's done. So why should he be catering his responses to those who don't like it?

 

[Black Narcissus]

View attachment 22939

The tears just ain't comin'.

{Snyder scripture exodus 6:66}

There's a natural mystic blowing through the air
If you listen carefully now you will hear
This could be the first trumpet, might as well be the last
Many more will have to suffer
Many more will have to die - don't ask me why

 

[Consona]

Anyone got the full clip of him talking about Batman going through different time travel portals? That was so hnnngh to hear.

Just before it was that part where he talks about the true original plan, how WB deemed that too scary and crazy, how they thought are their idead really that crazy, about the riots on the streets if they shot it... so funny.
I love how people reacted to those things, especially the Lois bomb. Even Deborah was like jeez, we gonna get sued now.

Hell, I would want to see Mad Max JL. Metal AF! Supes destroyed most of the world and all there is left...A wasteland and a few heroes left to fight. Diana driving a big old truck. The carry around a half thorn-broken Cyborg etc.

Mad Max Wonder Woman!

Oh wait, she didn't make it. Damn you, Snyder!

Can't hear what he said, I'm at work, what did he say?

There's a transcription in the twitter thread.

the fact that he wanted to kill lois lane pisses me off

May I know why are you so offended by something like that?

It would be exciting if he bothered to develop the characters and did it after oh...let’s say years and years worth of buildup so all of this actually means anything. But nope he just jumped straight to the nightmare scenario and most people wouldnt have given a damn.

"Bothered to develop characters?" Have you seen BvS???!!! Seriously...

Marvel did it and it worked. Snyder tried his thing and failed.

You compare uncomparable.

At the end of the day, people have to care. No point in shaking up a universe that people weren't invested in in the first place.

Don't generalize, just because some people did not enjoy it does not mean some other people were not invested.

But why am I trying to expain this to someone who thought the best Supes DCEU scene is that race with Flash, instead of the Flight, or saving the kids on the bus, or the oil rig/ocean scene, or Must there be a Superman with Day of the Dead and all the other parts, or Supes vs The World Engine, or... Snyder made the best superhero scenes ever and you liked the Flash race, which was just... "casual fun"? I guess?... like our worldviews differ on such a fundamental level that I really don't know how to approach this discussion.

Don't take it personally, or as an attack on your preferences, I'm just trying to describe and understand the vast abyss between the ways we perceive things.

Nah, this stuff is cyclical. People will get sick of the same ol’, same ol’ and someone who’s hopefully a better storyteller than Zack Snyder will come in with a darker, more serious take that will be seen as a “breath of fresh air” and usher in a new wave of “dark” CBM’s and lesser knock-offs and lather, rinse, repeat.

Better storyteller? What Snyder did in those 3 minutes of Must there be a Superman alone, with the visuals alone, was more impactful and meaningful than other CB films in their entirety.

Because it hasn’t ACTUALLY been same ol’ same ol’ - no one could’ve expected something akin to Infinity War/Endgame back when we were watching Iron Man or TFA, lol.

But IW was same old same old. Just on my second viewing, it felt so empty and needlessly inflated, yet didn't reach the emotional highs and epicness of something like LotR in the slightest, they just don't produce gripping, absorbing, interesting films, and when there's something truly interesting, they just don't go deep enough, the disneyfication is real. Can't wait for Russos to leave MCU and do their own things.

 

[Consona]

 

[flickchick85]

Don't generalize, just because some people did not enjoy it does not mean some other people were not invested.

Of course some were, but most were not, hence their failure.

But why am I trying to expain this to someone who thought the best Supes DCEU scene is that race with Flash, instead of the Flight, or saving the kids on the bus, or the oil rig/ocean scene, or Must there be a Superman with Day of the Dead and all the other parts, or Supes vs The World Engine, or... Snyder made the best superhero scenes ever and you liked the Flash race, which was just... "casual fun"? I guess?... like our worldviews differ on such a fundamental level that I really don't know how to approach this discussion.

Don't take it personally, or as an attack on your preferences, I'm just trying to describe and understand the vast abyss between the ways we perceive things.

Better storyteller? What Snyder did in those 3 minutes of Must there be a Superman alone, with the visuals alone, was more impactful and meaningful than other CB films in their entirety.

Obviously I disagree. The difference in our views is simple to explain: different taste. I mean, I could go in-depth on all the ways I feel like Snyder either failed to grasp or disrespected Superman on a base level as a character, built a DC Universe devoid of any warmth or likable personalities, failed to sell convincing relationships or motivations for his core conflicts and produced multiple examples of unintentional hilarity through tone-deaf self-seriousness, but A.) I don't have the energy for that, and more importantly B.) what would be the point? We both know I'm not going to convince you of anything, just as you can't convince me he made any kind of deep masterpiece. Hell, I don't even like the most praised aspect of his films: the visuals. So let's just call it what it is - different strokes. I liked the Supes/Flash scene because that's one of the only times I recognized the warm, friendly, confident-but-humble character on screen as the character I've loved all these years, and not as a gloomy, pessimistic, misanthropic imposter. But hey, if you want to chalk it up to "casual fun," I can't stop you. I think Snyder could be a great music video director, because he does nice montages. But that's where I feel his skills as a storyteller end, because when it comes to human interaction or building worlds that flesh and blood people are meant to inhabit...I buy nothing he puts on screen. I know you vehemently disagree, and that's cool.

 

[Tra-El]

And If their expectations for a Superman movie were that low from the start and they consider what MOS did as an over performance, then I’m glad that guys like Jeff Robinov and Kevin Tsujihara are gone, because that’s a chump’s mentality.

Hopefully the next studio head aims higher and brings in the right talent for the character this time.

I actually thought there was too much pressure and expectation on MoS. At that time, there was so much that MoS needed to be and it had a unique uphill battle to accomplish and be a lot of things. Didn't Robinov speak out of line and guarantee the big B for MoS right out of the gates? That's a bold claim, especially for a rebooted origin story that was tweaked, bold and heavy. I know WB was coming off TDK Trilogy and had the utmost confident where there was indeed major hype from the fans and audience but once the whole MCU started to reign, MoS became a movie that nobody knew what they wanted it to be for the future DCU and it showed with the decisions afterwards that are still lingering 'til this day.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think Zack's attitude toward fans is pretty bad and super condescending/dismissive. He can defend his views without belittling people. He's not any more mature than any one else.

I don't like his vision for Superman here, so I am glad we didn't get Injustice Superman in this case. Fridging Lois to make him evil would have been awful. Superman is not just about his love for 1 person, and that seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding he has. Granny Goodness mind wiping him or something would have worked better for me if we want Son of Darkseid Superman briefly.

But, that said, a universe where the heroes lose and have to time travel to undo the events of the Nightmare vision could have been good and I am not against that in principle. Even without build up. Regardless if Zack's cut is not what he scripted, I would still like to see his actual cut of the movie that he says exists. I don't care if we're not getting his 5 film arc or not. I'd just like to see that 1 movie out of sheer curiosity.

 

[_Superman_]

I actually thought there was too much pressure and expectation on MoS. At that time, there was so much that MoS needed to be and it had a unique uphill battle to accomplish and be a lot of things. Didn't Robinov speak out of line and guarantee the big B for MoS right out of the gates? That's a bold claim, especially for a rebooted origin story that was tweaked, bold and heavy. I know WB was coming off TDK Trilogy and had the utmost confident where there was indeed major hype from the fans and audience but once the whole MCU started to reign, MoS became a movie that nobody knew what they wanted it to be for the future DCU and it showed with the decisions afterwards that are still lingering 'til this day.

All the Superman movies have way too much pressure. Remember for Superman Returns they put a lot of pressure on that movie and it did well with both the critics and box office for a superhero movie with little to no action. That movie had the third highest box office of the solo superhero movies during that time with only the Iron Man movie doing better. As for Man of Steel I look at that movie and Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice UC and Snyder's Justice League like how I look at Watchmen all those movies were just ahead of it's time and I think just like Watchmen people will look differently at MOS and BVS down the line.

 

[_Superman_]

I think Zack's attitude toward fans is pretty bad and super condescending/dismissive. He can defend his views without belittling people. He's not any more mature than any one else.

I don't like his vision for Superman here, so I am glad we didn't get Injustice Superman in this case. Fridging Lois to make him evil would have been awful. Superman is not just about his love for 1 person, and that seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding he has. Granny Goodness mind wiping him or something would have worked better for me if we want Son of Darkseid Superman briefly.

But, that said, a universe where the heroes lose and have to time travel to undo the events of the Nightmare vision could have been good and I am not against that in principle. Even without build up. Regardless if Zack's cut is not what he scripted, I would still like to see his actual cut of the movie that he says exists. I don't care if we're not getting his 5 film arc or not. I'd just like to see that 1 movie out of sheer curiosity.

Fridging Lois didn't make him become evil it was the Anti-Life that would have made him become evil.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Fridging Lois didn't make him become evil it was the Anti-Life that would have made him become evil.

But he succumbed to it because Lois died. That's my issue. I don't like this boiling down to "She was my world! And now she is gone." That's just not Superman to me. I think if it had been made to where he remembers being raised by Darkseid, like Superman TAS for example, that works better for me. Heck, you can use the Anti-Life equation to effectively do that. But to make it they use it and just make him really angry Batman killed Lois in his mind or whatever, doesn't work for me.

 

[Erzengel]

I think cult movies are “dead” because the movie viewing experience has changed. The internet and social media has pretty much allowed for the instant desimination of data, thought and opinions. No more, have you watched Shawshank Redemption? Which BvS doesn’t fit that mold as BvS at the time was a top 4 grossing of the genre?

The whole, “people will look differently” doesn’t work when you have around 8 CBMs released a year that are embraced by the majority of the audiences and critics, remakes/revised takes on characters and in terms of the cinematic universes, other characters that do better. And personally, I think it’s just something fans bring up especially, since I’ve been hearing it since 2016 about BvS as a way to answer the divisiveness of it’s reception.