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Justice League Zack Snyder Directing Justice League (The Snyder Cut Edition)

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Honestly, I think it's cool that Snyder gets to complete his vision. I probably won't check it out because BvS just wasn't a take on the characters that I was interested in, but it's cool to see he gets to go back to it. Especially considering the horrible circumstances surrounding the film for him. I hope it's cathartic in a way. Something that can let him put some of that grief behind him.
 
From that point on, they micromanaged the sequels. I don't think that BvS was Snyder's vision. The inclusion of Doomsday and Ben Affleck as Batman reeks of studio interference. That's my personal belief. I can't prove it, I guess.. but I honestly think we could have gotten a very cool trilogy if WB hadn't gotten scared. I don't blame Joss. I blame WB. I think they got involved in BvS, because MOS critical reaction freaked them out. And then when BvS did so poorly, they went into full 'follow-the-formula' lockdown. I wish that Snyder could get a second chance at BvS too. I really do.

WB clearly micromanaged him with Justice League (to the point where they invited press to the set to show them this time there'd be more jokes!), and probably should just have let him release the 3 hour cut of BvS in theaters.

That said, everything about BvS screams of Zack Snyder, for better or worse. That is his vision for the DC World. As @Detective Conan said, including Batman in the sequel was his pitch. Affleck as the DKR-inspired older, jaded Batman has Snyder all over it. Now, maybe he and the studio were aligned on this (as Affleck had golden boy status there at the time), but Snyder is as big a Batfleck fanboy as anyone, and calls him the best Batman ever.

IMO, this was all a huge mistake. It's easy to see why at the time it seemed like an attractive prospect to WB. You reboot Batman (something that was always going to be a challenge post-Nolan), and you jumpstart the DC Universe in one fell swoop. It's almost hard to conceive of a scenario where something like this wouldn't have happened. But I still think Zack should've resisted the temptation and waited.

Honestly, and while this take is sure to ruffle some feathers, but I think Snyder may have sorta unintentionally flipped Nolan off with the whole endeavor. Nolan was godfathering Man of Steel, and his original intentions with it were for it to be another standalone trilogy in the vein of The Dark Knight Trilogy. He gave a whole interview explaining this at the time-- that it was an entirely unconnected to Batman, and that was the point-- it was supposed to be all about exploring this other great icon of Superman that was long past due for a modern reinvention. Nolan brought Snyder onto the project. He helped convince Zimmer to do the score. Mapped out the story beats with Goyer just as they did for the trilogy. The whole "From the makers of The Dark Knight Trilogy" angle helped sell the movie to the public, and Nolan's involvement gave Zack some cover to make the movie how he wanted-- including the killing of Zod, which Nolan was originally against. Snyder was put in a great position to benefit from the TDKT pedigree, while still getting to make a very "Zack Snyder" movie where had creative say on major story decisions.

Snyder then turned around and basically decided to use this Superman movie as a means to trojan horse his Dark Knight Returns pet project into the mix, despite that being the exact opposite of where Nolan had wanted things to go. He pitched this to Nolan who had just barely finished his Batman trilogy that he had spent 9 years of his life on, who was understandably taken aback-- before ultimately wishing Zack the best and taking a big step away from DC. Even Zimmer was put in an awkward situation where he didn't want to have to cover that ground again-- to the point where he had to bring on Junkie XL to do it. Henry Cavill, while supportive of Snyder, was clearly not thrilled about being completely sidelined in what should have been his own sequel for what essentially became more of a Batman film.

I don't know. On one hand I can't fault Snyder for following his creative instincts and trying to make his dream project a reality. On the other hand, I think he and WB would've benefited from a little more patience and restraint here. I think it just would've been a lot less jarring if they didn't try to shoehorn a new rebooted Batman, the other JL members, The Dark Knight Returns, the Death of Superman storyline...all into one film. And as much as I can blame the studio for allowing Snyder to do it, these choices are mostly the result of Snyder being overly eager to "skip to the awesome part". All at the expense of Superman's character development.

I'm just speaking for myself, and a lot of non-hardcore DC fans when I say that the prospect of a modern Superman trilogy done in the vein of TDKT, with some of the same creative team involved sounded incredibly appealing at the time. Myself and friends who could not care less about the release of the Snyder Cut now-- back in 2013, we were ALL IN when those Man of Steel trailers hit. Abandoning all of that to retroactively turn Man of Steel into the first part of a "DC" arc rather than a Superman arc, just felt very cynical and cash-grabby and turned a lot of people off right out the gate.

Blegh, sorry that came out so lengthy. These are thoughts I've had for a long time on the situation that I've never really attempted to articulate before. All that said, I'm still happy for Snyder and the people who genuinely were dying for this that they'll get some closure on the story he was telling.
 
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WB clearly micromanaged him with Justice League (to the point where they invited press to the set to show them this time there'd be more jokes!), and probably should just have let him release the 3 hour cut of BvS in theaters.

That said, everything about BvS screams of Zack Snyder, for better or worse. That is his vision for the DC World. As @Detective Conan said, including Batman in the sequel was his pitch. Affleck as the DKR-inspired older, jaded Batman has Snyder all over it. Now, maybe he and the studio were aligned on this (as Affleck had golden boy status there at the time), but Snyder is as big a Batfleck fanboy as anyone, and calls him the best Batman ever.

IMO, this was all a huge mistake. It's easy to see why at the time it seemed like an attractive prospect to WB. You reboot Batman (something that was always going to be a challenge post-Nolan), and you jumpstart the DC Universe in one fell swoop. It's almost hard to conceive of a scenario where something like this wouldn't have happened. But I still think Zack should've resisted the temptation and waited.

Honestly, and while this take is sure to ruffle some feathers, but I think Snyder may have sorta unintentionally flipped Nolan off with the whole endeavor. Nolan was godfathering Man of Steel, and his original intentions with it were for it to be another standalone trilogy in the vein of The Dark Knight Trilogy. He gave a whole interview explaining this at the time-- that it was an entirely unconnected to Batman, and that was the point-- it was supposed to be all about exploring this other great icon of Superman that was long past due for a modern reinvention. Nolan brought Snyder onto the project. He helped convince Zimmer to do the score. Mapped out the story beats with Goyer just as they did for the trilogy. The whole "From the makers of The Dark Knight Trilogy" angle being involved helped sell the movie to the public, and Nolan's involvement gave Zack some cover to make the movie how he wanted-- including the killing of Zod, which Nolan was originally against. Snyder was put in a great position to benefit from the TDKT pedigree, while still getting to make a very "Zack Snyder" movie where had creative say on major story decisions.

Snyder then turned around and basically decided to use this Superman movie as a means to trojan horse his Dark Knight Returns pet project into the mix, despite that being the exact opposite of where Nolan had wanted things to go. He pitched this to Nolan who had just barely finished his Batman trilogy that he had spent 9 years of his life on, who was understandably taken aback-- before ultimately wishing Zack the best and taking a big step away from DC. Even Zimmer was put in an awkward situation where he didn't want to have to cover that ground again-- to the point where he had to bring on Junkie XL to do it. Henry Cavill, while supportive of Snyder, was clearly not thrilled about being completely sidelined in what should have been his own sequel for what essentially became more of a Batman film.

I don't know. On one hand I can't fault Snyder for following his creative instincts and trying to make his dream project a reality. On the other hand, I think he and WB would've benefited from a little more patience and restraint here. I think it just would've been a lot less jarring if they didn't try to shoehorn a new rebooted Batman, the other JL members, The Dark Knight Returns, the Death of Superman storyline...all into one film. And as much as I can blame the studio for allowing Snyder to do it, these choices are mostly the result of Snyder being overly eager to "skip to the awesome part". All at the expense of Superman's character development.

I'm just speaking for myself, and a lot of non-hardcore DC fans when I say that the prospect of a modern Superman trilogy done in the vein of TDKT, with some of the same creative team involved sounded incredibly appealing at the time. Myself and friends who could not care less about the release of the Snyder Cut now-- back in 2013, we were ALL IN when those Man of Steel trailers hit. Abandoning all of that to retroactively turn Man of Steel into the first part of a "DC" arc rather than a Superman arc, just felt very cynical and cash-grabby and turned a lot of people off right out the gate.

Blegh, sorry that came out so lengthy. These are thoughts I've had for a long time on the situation that I've never really attempted to articulate before.

I understand that you'll have more evidence supporting this point. Snyder has said that BvS was his vision. But personally, I don't believe it. You say that BvS has Snyder written all over it, but I don't see it.. I think he wanted MOS2. BvS was a pet project of WB's for years. There were advertisements in Legend for it... test scripts... the whole VS trend was making the round. Bringing in Batman wreaks of a box office influenced decision and not a Creative one. Superman was struggling since Returns, but Batman is really hot after Nolan. Let's bring in Batman to increase Sales.

Same thing with Affleck. If you are interested in making a new universe, why would you go for the older, semi-retired version of Batman? Could it have anything to do with Affleck's long professed desire to play Batman and WB's feelings of him being a golden child? Seems likely to me.

Doomsday.. would a fan really want to add Doomsday this early? I just don't see it. It all feels like stuff that was put in to make money and sell toys, not tell a good story.

I think Snyder is a team player, and he knew that if he wanted to continue to work in Hollywood, it wouldn't be good to throw WB under the bus, so he took the blame. When I take a step back, that's what feels like the most logical to me. It's obvious that WB was in the mix on BvS somewhat, because of the massive cutdown from it. Clearly Snyder wanted a longer run time. I think that's just the tip of the iceberg personally.
 
I understand that you'll have more evidence supporting this point. Snyder has said that BvS was his vision. But personally, I don't believe it. You say that BvS has Snyder written all over it, but I don't see it.. I think he wanted MOS2. BvS was a pet project of WB's for years. There were advertisements in Legend for it... test scripts... the whole VS trend was making the round. Bringing in Batman wreaks of a box office influenced decision and not a Creative one. Superman was struggling since Returns, but Batman is really hot after Nolan. Let's bring in Batman to increase Sales.

Same thing with Affleck. If you are interested in making a new universe, why would you go for the older, semi-retired version of Batman? Could it have anything to do with Affleck's long professed desire to play Batman and WB's feelings of him being a golden child? Seems likely to me.

Doomsday.. would a fan really want to add Doomsday this early? I just don't see it. It all feels like stuff that was put in to make money and sell toys, not tell a good story.

I think Snyder is a team player, and he knew that if he wanted to continue to work in Hollywood, it wouldn't be good to throw WB under the bus, so he took the blame. When I take a step back, that's what feels like the most logical to me. It's obvious that WB was in the mix on BvS somewhat, because of the massive cutdown from it. Clearly Snyder wanted a longer run time. I think that's just the tip of the iceberg personally.

I think Snyder was smart enough to know that once he dangled that carrot in front of WB, there was no way they'd be able to resist the bait. Because what you say is true. It's something WB had wanted for years and there was more pressure than ever to do it with the MCU being such a raging success.

I just think Snyder and the suits at WB had something in common: they both think Batman is way cooler than Superman (which...I don't disagree :oldrazz:). IMO the stars just aligned there. The way I see it he made a bargain. He'd get to make his dream project that's as close to DKR as he could get without adapting it. In exchange, he'd be setting up the studio with a Justice League and helping launch all these other franchises. Which I'm assuming financially benefitted him as well, btw.

And even assuming what you say is true and it was all WB's idea...I think he clearly got passionate about it. Compare BvS to MoS and it feels way more like a Snyder movie. It's a Watchmen sort of take on the DC world and a deconstruction of their two biggest icons. It's just oozing Snyder.
 
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I think Snyder was smart enough to know that once he dangled that carrot in front of WB, there was no way they'd be able to resist the bait. Because what you say is true. It's something WB had wanted for years and there was more pressure than ever to do it with the MCU being such a raging success.

I just think Snyder and the suits at WB had something in common: they both think Batman is way cooler than Superman (which...I don't disagree :oldrazz:). IMO the stars just aligned there. The way I see it he made a bargain. He'd get to make his dream project that's as close to DKR as he could get without adapting it. In exchange, he'd be setting up the studio with a Justice League and helping launch all these other franchises. Which I'm assuming financially benefitted him as well, btw.

And even assuming what you say is true and it was all WB's idea...I think he clearly got passionate about it. Compare BvS to MoS and feels way more like a Snyder movie. It's a Watchmen sort of take on the DC world and a deconstruction of their two biggest icons. It's just oozing Snyder.

Since I have nothing but a hunch that supports my point, I certainly can't argue with you. I will say that yeah... there are some things that were probably Snyder's idea, that in hindsight didn't work out. The choice to make Lex a Zuckerberg figure. Superman's lack of smiling and charm. The TDKR visual similarities. I feel like those are all Snyder. So, yeah.. it's definitely a mix. I feel like WB doesn't understand the appeal of comic book properties. Snyder was a fan... and yeah... he probably did sell them on a grand plan...because they didn't know any better... they said sure.

But somewhere along the way... the folks who don't get comic books said, "wait a second... we need the evil monster in the third act.... better make sure this is only 160 minutes..... where's the love interest? What Hollywood stars can we drum up? etc, and they ruined it. I think WB wanted Affleck. I think WB wanted a Versus movie. I think WB wanted Doomsday. Those things were the genesis of what made BvS bad, for me.

And if I am wrong... and this was really all Snyder's doing.. that demonstrates how WB needs to get a better handle on this property. Marvel leans into their source material. Marvel loves their source material. It's never felt like WB feels the same to me. WB is embarrassed of comic book movies. And that's where this disconnect comes from. If it feels like there are too many cooks in the kitchen and too many visions in BvS and Justice League... its' because there are. WB and Snyder never shared a common vision, IMO.
 
I have done a complete 180 on Batman v Superman, watching it tonight I’ve spotted a lot of things I haven’t before. There are little nuances here & there especially with Cavill’s performance as Clark/Superman that have made me fall in love with this movie again.
 
It seems Cavill's performance in MOS is more well received, but personally I liked his BvS work more. Many lines and delivery from MOS were just awkward and wonky to take seriously, like Jor-El's history lesson, "you're a monster, Zod" line, to name a few. Cavill actually acts better when brooding IMO. :oldrazz:
 
I think Snyder was smart enough to know that once he dangled that carrot in front of WB, there was no way they'd be able to resist the bait. Because what you say is true. It's something WB had wanted for years and there was more pressure than ever to do it with the MCU being such a raging success.

I just think Snyder and the suits at WB had something in common: they both think Batman is way cooler than Superman (which...I don't disagree ). IMO the stars just aligned there. The way I see it he made a bargain. He'd get to make his dream project that's as close to DKR as he could get without adapting it. In exchange, he'd be setting up the studio with a Justice League and helping launch all these other franchises. Which I'm assuming financially benefitted him as well, btw.

And even assuming what you say is true and it was all WB's idea...I think he clearly got passionate about it. Compare BvS to MoS and it feels way more like a Snyder movie. It's a Watchmen sort of take on the DC world and a deconstruction of their two biggest icons. It's just oozing Snyder.

Ugh you're most likely right. I want to blame WB so much though since they sign off on animated movies including Batman for marketing reasons and then his role is pointless. Gotta love doing DKR Batman without the context in the book. I really love the whole branding idea Snyder put in soooo much. Hooray for Batman intending for people to be murdered in prison!
 
Since I have nothing but a hunch that supports my point, I certainly can't argue with you. I will say that yeah... there are some things that were probably Snyder's idea, that in hindsight didn't work out. The choice to make Lex a Zuckerberg figure. Superman's lack of smiling and charm. The TDKR visual similarities. I feel like those are all Snyder. So, yeah.. it's definitely a mix. I feel like WB doesn't understand the appeal of comic book properties. Snyder was a fan... and yeah... he probably did sell them on a grand plan...because they didn't know any better... they said sure.

But somewhere along the way... the folks who don't get comic books said, "wait a second... we need the evil monster in the third act.... better make sure this is only 160 minutes..... where's the love interest? What Hollywood stars can we drum up? etc, and they ruined it. I think WB wanted Affleck. I think WB wanted a Versus movie. I think WB wanted Doomsday. Those things were the genesis of what made BvS bad, for me.

And if I am wrong... and this was really all Snyder's doing.. that demonstrates how WB needs to get a better handle on this property. Marvel leans into their source material. Marvel loves their source material. It's never felt like WB feels the same to me. WB is embarrassed of comic book movies. And that's where this disconnect comes from. If it feels like there are too many cooks in the kitchen and too many visions in BvS and Justice League... its' because there are. WB and Snyder never shared a common vision, IMO.

My take, and this is more of a gut feeling on my part as well, but I don't think the issue was WB and Snyder having conflicting visions (at least when it comes to BvS). They only got reactionary after BvS got panned. But for BvS, I think they entrusted Snyder. WB has a long history of being known as the "director driven" studio, and I think they were willing to back the guy who had made them a lot of money with 300, and given them a successful reboot of Superman (albeit a more modest success). I think the leadership at the time also fancied the idea of branding DC the darker, weightier alternative to Marvel, and saw Snyder's darker vision combined with his "geek cred" and comic book-y aesthetics as a winning combo for the next phase of DC. Whether or not Affleck was Snyder's first choice, who knows-- but he clearly loves Affleck's version of Batman. And with Doomsday...I mean, Snyder clearly wanted to go all-in with a death and return of Superman story arc, so much so that he had envisioned a 5 film arc. Doomsday is a part of that.

Even so though, and this is why I ultimately put most of the responsibility on Snyder for BvS existing....if he truly was against all of it and just wanted to do pure Man of Steel sequel, he had a powerful player in his corner in Nolan who would've backed him up 100%. But he broke from him. If he felt his vision was being overly compromised, he entered the project with eyes wide open there. He wasn't contractually obligated to return. That's where I have to draw the line and say BvS--or at very least the Ultimate Cut-- is his movie. Every director making a film of this size has to do so within the confines of a major studio and navigate the politics of it, so Snyder is no different than others in that regard, and probably enjoyed more creative freedom over BvS than most MCU directors have gotten-- especially considering he was given control of the most important heroes in the DC universe.

The thing is, for me, the results of all of this were entirely unsurprising. Zack Snyder is a very distinct filmmaker who already had a track record of polarizing films. Not a critical darling, but with a passionate cult fanbase. So here we are, his DC films got mixed to bad reviews, but with his vocal fanbase proclaiming them to be the greatest CBMs ever, to the point that they helped convince a studio to spend 20-30 million dollars to ressurect a dead project. Pretty wild!

I respect where you're coming from and am enjoying the conversation so don't take this as me trying to prove you wrong, but the whole topic kinds of encapsulates the issues I have with Zack as a filmmaker. For me, it feels kind of like he approached this like..."My vision is too grand to be contained in a single studio movie, so I'll play ball and make the 2 1/12 hour version, but it's really a 4 hour movie, oh and also the story is not going to fully make sense until you see the 5 film arc I have mapped out". At the same time, it was a very bad look for WB to put the cart before the horse and totally entrust Snyder to lay the groundwork for the entire DCU, only to backpedal on all of that and start meddling like crazy, to predictably terrible results. That's why I have some sympathy for the Snyder Cut fans, even though I don't expect to like his version much better.
 
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Has Snyder ever explained why Flash appears to Bruce in a dream? Cause that never made sense to me.
 
I think that was just set-up for the original 5-movie arc he had planned.
 
I have done a complete 180 on Batman v Superman, watching it tonight I’ve spotted a lot of things I haven’t before. There are little nuances here & there especially with Cavill’s performance as Clark/Superman that have made me fall in love with this movie again.

Awesome.

It seems Cavill's performance in MOS is more well received, but personally I liked his BvS work more. Many lines and delivery from MOS were just awkward and wonky to take seriously, like Jor-El's history lesson, "you're a monster, Zod" line, to name a few. Cavill actually acts better when brooding IMO. :oldrazz:

Cavill is giving an all-timer CBM acting in this scene. So-so good. And Adams is even better, which is insane.

 
WB clearly micromanaged him with Justice League (to the point where they invited press to the set to show them this time there'd be more jokes!), and probably should just have let him release the 3 hour cut of BvS in theaters.

The 3hr cut probably would've done worst. It was already hard enough to sit through the original film in theaters. Synder wants to do a glorified mini series but on the big screen and it doesnt work that way. 3-4hr films...like dude, make a good 2hr film and you get MORE FILMS.
 
The 3hr cut probably would've done worst. It was already hard enough to sit through the original film in theaters. Synder wants to do a glorified mini series but on the big screen and it doesnt work that way. 3-4hr films...like dude, make a good 2hr film and you get MORE FILMS.

I agree that the 3 hr cut would have probably done worse. It fills in some plot holes and gives the movie a better pace but ultimately a large section of the audience just didn't like this take on Superman, Batman and Luthor.
 
Based on past experience I don't think Grace Randolph has any reliable sources in Hollywood (if she has any sources at all).
 
And yet we clearly see him wake up.

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