Justice League Zack Snyder Directing Justice League (The Snyder Cut Edition)

[Erzengel]

I think that WB tried to make JL profitable until it wasn't, and WB executives just wanted the film done and collect their bonuses.

AT&T is not on the hook for the $250 or $300M that WB spent in the production of of JL. That money has been spent. AT&T has the chance to spend $50-$100M to boost their streaming service.

 

[Comicbookguy339]

I do believe this a a major contributing factor in peoples response.

Not knowing a lot about the Transformers other than they were toys, before the Bay movies I liked the first few. Got tired of them by 3-4 but I liked the tone and quality of the first few actually. They were fun and told the"general" story of the decepticons and autobots mythos IMO.. Since I didn't know much else it didn't ruin any preconceived notions I had about the characters and world. I also thought Shia was perfect in the role for the story told.

I respect your opinion but i have to completely disagree here. I didn't know anything about Transformers before the Bay films but right off the bat I considered them one of the most awful blockbusters ever made. Nonsensical plot, annoying characters, incomprehensible action and Transformers playing second fiddle to humans. I've read a few comics since then and knowing what Transformers on the big screen could be makes those movies even more awful in my mind. I never watched 4 & 5 but I can't imagine they're much better than the first three.

 

[souperman]

Ultimately, people just didn't like Snyder's take on Batman and Superman. The extended cut of that movie made it better on a storytelling level but it wouldn't have changed any minds.

Well... people didn't like? Some people did't like. $870m dollars worth ++ liked it enough. $1B dollars worth of people did not- and that is the issue really. The Billion dollar success target. Like social media, it is not a true representation of quality or success IMO.

The very fact that "people" make conclusive statements like "people just didn't like Snyder's take on Batman and Superman" shows the bias. BTW- Not saying this is how you personally feel, it is just a conclusion "people" draw when trying to quickly sum up an issue. They generalize for effect and to make their point and also for brevity... just ask Trump.

I agree "some" people were not ready for Snyder's take on Superman...

"My father believed if the world found out who I really was it'd reject me. He was convinced that the world wasn't ready. What do you think?"

Kinda prophetic... no?

 

[Comicbookguy339]

Looking at the critical and online reaction to BvS and the discussions since I think it's fair to say that people largely weren't into the film. It made money, yes, but that doesn't mean everybody who went to see it enjoyed the film. The sharp weekend to weekend box office drops were also an indication of poor word of mouth.

 

[Erzengel]

The very fact that "people" make conclusive statements like "people just didn't like Snyder's take on Batman and Superman" shows the bias.

You're right it's the political spin. It's either BvS was the 7th or 8th highest grossing CBM at the time of it's release or 16th highest grossing CBM of all time. Or it's the highest grossing opening weekend to never gross a $1B or that a Melissa McCarthy movie outgrossed it in it's 3rd week.

I think if Snyder did the same movie and used iterations of Superman, Batman and WW, it would have made less. This did as well as it did because of the premise and the characters being used.

 

[souperman]

I respect your opinion but i have to completely disagree here. I didn't know anything about Transformers before the Bay films but right off the bat I considered them one of the most awful blockbusters ever made. Nonsensical plot, annoying characters, incomprehensible action and Transformers playing second fiddle to humans. I've read a few comics since then and knowing what Transformers on the big screen could be makes those movies even more awful in my mind. I never watched 4 & 5 but I can't imagine they're much better than the first three.

I respect your opinion as well.

I feel in order to humanize the film the robots need to play second fiddle although in my eyes they were equal. Two different types of life forms interacting... and the ultimate theme of figuring out how to live together and having different factions of acceptance and distrust was handled well IMO. Optimus was the optimistic voice of reason teaching the primitive humans about humanity.

Action packed hardware oriented fluff but with a heart IMO. Well made fun popcorn movies... at least the first few for me.

 

[Comicbookguy339]

Just to clarify, I like BvS a lot but I'm pretty convinced that this was not the case with the vast majority of film goers.

 

[dhandler01]

I agree that WB needs to do what works for them. Right now since Aquaman, they've either had a well received movie, one that did money or both. I think right now they should only invest in what works and maybe leave the $200M+ blockbusters to like Batman, Aquaman, etc. that have shown to make money.


Add me to this. This is what interests me. I'm not sure I'd be as interested in the Aquaman 2 sequel or another rehash of Batman, but throwing Black Adam in with Shazam is what I find more interesting.

Black Adam is a Shazam villain so I dont think that is the example you want to use.

 

[Flash525]

If you've read many Batman comics, you KNOW that ain't true. There's A LOT that's never been done on screen with him before, and that a lot of people would like to see. And I say this as someone whose least-favorite member of the League is Batman (well he's tied w/ The Flash, probably).

I've never actually read a single comic in my life, I'll happily confess to that. Practically everything I know about DC and Marvel is what I've researched after watching a film about a certain character, playing a game or chancing across.

That said though, and to lock on the point you made about Batman and his rogues.

The fact that the Pattison film is largely focused on Scarecrow, Penguin and the Riddler as the villains along with Catwoman (antihero?) these aren't unused characters. Not when you consider the vastness of the rouges. We're just back to recycled villains.

 

[souperman]

You're right it's the political spin. It's either BvS was the 7th or 8th highest grossing CBM at the time of it's release or 16th highest grossing CBM of all time. Or it's the highest grossing opening weekend to never gross a $1B or that a Melissa McCarthy movie outgrossed it in it's 3rd week.

I think if Snyder did the same movie and used iterations of Superman, Batman and WW, it would have made less. This did as well as it did because of the premise and the characters being used.

The fact that we are here discussing the Snyderverse is testament to the fact that "people" (some) like this version. Different audience for different versions. It's that simple. Can't fault WB for wanting to make more money and if they thought changing the tone would accomplish that goal they would do it. They are not film makers, as said ^^ they are business-persons. Profit and breaking records are the main goal. Bragging rights.

Maybe the DC audience is just not as big as the Marvel? Maybe DC fans also like Marvel films but Marvel fans loath DC so they don't go?

Lot's of balls in the air...

 

[Erzengel]

Just to clarify, I like BvS a lot but I'm pretty convinced that this was not the case with the vast majority of film goers.

I think souperman is likening this to movies like Transformers and I'll even throw in the Pirates movies. Critically panned or divisive movies that seem to do well regardless, therefore the general audience "likes it". However, the fact that Transformers and Pirates have done much better despite being released years before and that BvS really lost it's audience after that 1st week, I feel that there was turn by them.

 

[Comicbookguy339]

I've never actually read a single comic in my life, I'll happily confess to that. Practically everything I know about DC and Marvel is what I've researched after watching a film about a certain character, playing a game or chancing across.

That said though, and to lock on the point you made about Batman and his rogues.

The fact that the Pattison film is largely focused on Scarecrow, Penguin and the Riddler as the villains along with Catwoman (antihero?) these aren't unused characters. Not when you consider the vastness of the rouges. We're just back to recycled villains.

You should give some comics a shot, there's some truly great stuff out there.

I'm trying to think of Batman villains who haven't been used in live action that could carry a movie. Hmm... I think there's definitely room to improve on previous depictions of Batman's rogues though. Most of them haven't been done justice in live action (damn, I think my personal bias is clearly seeping in here).

 

[moviefreak]

BvS critical reception suffered blowback fom MOS critical reception, MOS got people *****ing about Zod death, property damages, unsmiling Superman etc. In addition WB butchered BvS runtime taking out a chuck of about 30 mins of relevant materials didn't help. That's how JL ended up in the ditch.

There are only two possible ways of getting both good critical reception & 1plus Billion in boxoffice -either make a Superman equivalent of TDK film or make (MOS and BvS) a full-on popcorn summer film.

 

[Flash525]

Black Adam is a Shazam villain so I dont think that is the example you want to use.

I'm thinking they should take the Civil War approach with a Shazam sequel.

Unless I'm mistaken, it's been said that WB intend (or would like) for Batman and Superman to currently have supporting roles in future films for the moment, with Keatons Batman as a mentor to the Flash.

Why not do the same with Superman? Have Clark mentor Billy about what it is to be a hero, and together they battle and defeat Adam, rather than one of them.

Superman is very much the DC powerhouse but is (or should be) vulnerable to magical attacks. We could have him fight Adam only to come up short, maybe with Billy/Shazam coming to his aid (after being tossed aside by Adam) thus getting Clark's acknowledgement as a hero.

Shazam 2: Hope & Lightening

 

[Erzengel]

Black Adam is a Shazam villain so I dont think that is the example you want to use.

He is but it's not like he's a low level villain. He has a decent comic book history that they are going to give him his own movie first.

The fact that we are here discussing the Snyderverse is testament to the fact that "people" (some) like this version. Different audience for different versions. It's that simple. Can't fault WB for wanting to make more money and if they thought changing the tone would accomplish that goal they would do it. They are not film makers, as said ^^ they are business-persons. Profit and breaking records are the main goal. Bragging rights.

Maybe the DC audience is just not as big as the Marvel? Maybe DC fans also like Marvel films but Marvel fans loath DC so they don't go?

Lot's of balls in the air...

I don't think most people here will disagree that the Snyderverse doesn't have fans. And, you're right WB aren't filmmakers and they don't have their finger on the pulse of this genre without the filmmakers. The issue especially with this genre, is that the same executives who is reviewing a comic book movie, is also someone reviewing a horror movie, a drama, the next romantic comedy.

Personally, the mindset of WB thinking they can do what Marvel did, because their characters are much more popular from a business standpoint is an easy decision. However, like with everything, it's in the execution.

 

[dhandler01]

The fact that we are here discussing the Snyderverse is testament to the fact that "people" (some) like this version. Different audience for different versions. It's that simple. Can't fault WB for wanting to make more money and if they thought changing the tone would accomplish that goal they would do it. They are not film makers, as said ^^ they are business-persons. Profit and breaking records are the main goal. Bragging rights.

Maybe the DC audience is just not as big as the Marvel? Maybe DC fans also like Marvel films but Marvel fans loath DC so they don't go?

Lot's of balls in the air...

Well to put on my comic retailer hat a bit...I will say that DC fans tend to have more baggage with characters and characterization than Marvel fans do. The term "Marvel Zombie" (the fan not the comic) exists in part because Marvel fans are fiercely loyal and are willing to allow major leaps in characters (though lately replacement seems to have an affect) and outright changes. It was kind of crazy to watch and it is why Marvel will always dominate the market. It doesnt matter the price, it doesnt matter the page count, it doesnt matter the author and it doesnt matter how big the line is the main line stories will always sell at a ton. (for DC Batman is the only one that has such loyalty though from time to time other comics did as well but never as long as Marvel)

DC the fans are loyal to specific versions of characters or replacements of those characters. Pre-Crisis, Post-Crisis, Nu52, Flashpoint...etc. Superman's origin used to light message boards on fire. (Silver vs. Gold...MOS vs. Birthright) For YEARS there was groups of Hal Jordan Green Lantern fans that would right letters/emails/blogs/message board posts to and about creators denouncing Kyle Raynor (called HEAT) and creating hell. The loyalty isnt necessarily to the character but to the interpretation.

The films seem to go along with this. People have seen multiple different versions of some of these characters on the screen. People are loyal to their version. The longer a character has been around and the more it gets re-imagined over the years the more it divides the audience. Sometimes people stay loyal through it all (which we will see if that happens when Marvel starts rebooting their films) but it seems with DCs characters people stay with the vision they like the best.

JMHO.

 

[dhandler01]

He is but it's not like he's a low level villain. He has a decent comic book history that they are going to give him his own movie first.

Oh I know I just think that as long as Shazam was going to get a film series he would be part of it. Black Adam was in the friggin JSA back when I read it

(I miss that run...I know everyone here hates Geoff Johns but his run on JSA is awesome)

 

[souperman]

I think souperman is likening this to movies like Transformers and I'll even throw in the Pirates movies. Critically panned or divisive movies that seem to do well regardless, therefore the general audience "likes it". However, the fact that Transformers and Pirates have done much better despite being released years before and that BvS really lost it's audience after that 1st week, I feel that there was turn by them.

^^ this and expectations. EVERYONE involved probably thought that since Superman is the pinnacle of CB characters it HAD to do incredible box-office. Bigger than any CBM ever!
Same goes for Star Trek. Big loyal fan base. Always makes money but enough? Very profitable if the budget is reasonable. Less so if the budget explodes and the PM is low.

Franchises have a built in audience fan-base. I don't think ANY version of Superman will give a boxoffice score like TFA! SR was a continuation of Chris Reeves Superman and it flopped... Had ALL the akimbo Superman moments and character... Even SW audiences turned on TRoS. Made money but not TFA money...
I think the expectations and budgets are out of wack.

 

[souperman]

Well to put on my comic retailer hat a bit...I will say that DC fans tend to have more baggage with characters and characterization than Marvel fans do. The term "Marvel Zombie" (the fan not the comic) exists in part because Marvel fans are fiercely loyal and are willing to allow major leaps in characters (though lately replacement seems to have an affect) and outright changes. It was kind of crazy to watch and it is why Marvel will always dominate the market. It doesnt matter the price, it doesnt matter the page count, it doesnt matter the author and it doesnt matter how big the line is the main line stories will always sell at a ton. (for DC Batman is the only one that has such loyalty though from time to time other comics did as well but never as long as Marvel)

DC the fans are loyal to specific versions of characters or replacements of those characters. Pre-Crisis, Post-Crisis, Nu52, Flashpoint...etc. Superman's origin used to light message boards on fire. (Silver vs. Gold...MOS vs. Birthright) For YEARS there was groups of Hal Jordan Green Lantern fans that would right letters/emails/blogs/message board posts to and about creators denouncing Kyle Raynor (called HEAT) and creating hell. The loyalty isnt necessarily to the character but to the interpretation.

The films seem to go along with this. People have seen multiple different versions of some of these characters on the screen. People are loyal to their version. The longer a character has been around and the more it gets re-imagined over the years the more it divides the audience. Sometimes people stay loyal through it all (which we will see if that happens when Marvel starts rebooting their films) but it seems with DCs characters people stay with the vision they like the best.

JMHO.

prob best explanation of the psychology of viewers.
Personal preference. Perfectly understandable.
I take the attitude of : ...for what it was, it was well done! or not. Maybe not MY personal preference or fantasy to see but a good story and experience. or not.

For me, nothing in MoS or BvS did not "fit" in CB history in one way or another or go so far out of bounds as to make the characters unrecognizable. Just different interpretations.
I liked CR STM and Mos/BvS and even SR to a slightly lesser degree. STM was the ultimate popcorn light-hearted rendition of Superman. The Comic Books brought to life. MoS/BvS is a more serious take on the subject. The Graphic novels brought to life. I like them all.

Anytime I get to see SUPERMAN on the big screen is a treat and I feel Snyder brought a depth and seriousness and quality to the character he never had in movies before.

 

[Flash525]

I'm trying to think of Batman villains who haven't been used in live action that could carry a movie. Hmm... I think there's definitely room to improve on previous depictions of Batman's rogues though. Most of them haven't been done justice in live action (damn, I think my personal bias is clearly seeping in here).

Deathstroke is the only Batman villain I care for them to do anything with at the moment, but that ship sank before it could even set sail.

 

[Erzengel]

Well to put on my comic retailer hat a bit...I will say that DC fans tend to have more baggage with characters and characterization than Marvel fans do. The term "Marvel Zombie" (the fan not the comic) exists in part because Marvel fans are fiercely loyal and are willing to allow major leaps in characters (though lately replacement seems to have an affect) and outright changes. It was kind of crazy to watch and it is why Marvel will always dominate the market. It doesnt matter the price, it doesnt matter the page count, it doesnt matter the author and it doesnt matter how big the line is the main line stories will always sell at a ton. (for DC Batman is the only one that has such loyalty though from time to time other comics did as well but never as long as Marvel)

I see your points and I think it also goes that DC from the very beginning has have multiple iterations of the same characters.

The only thing close is Spider-Man and to a lesser extent the Hulk.

I think one of the reasons Marvel has succeeded was the fact that Marvel characters have been relegated to tv shows, straight to video releases up to the late 90s and aside from Superman and Batman, comic book movies were a joke. So even though characters like Captain America, Thor, Doctor Strange, Fury, etc. have appeared in live action before there weren't "revered" because there was no real previous incarnations to be compared to.

Then Marvel did something unprecedented with their Big 3 (Iron Man, Cap & Thor), at least every 2 years these characters returned to the big screen. I feel, including their natural charisma, this endeared the characters to the audience and invested in them.

DC the fans are loyal to specific versions of characters or replacements of those characters. Pre-Crisis, Post-Crisis, Nu52, Flashpoint...etc. Superman's origin used to light message boards on fire. (Silver vs. Gold...MOS vs. Birthright) For YEARS there was groups of Hal Jordan Green Lantern fans that would right letters/emails/blogs/message board posts to and about creators denouncing Kyle Raynor (called HEAT) and creating hell. The loyalty isnt necessarily to the character but to the interpretation.

The films seem to go along with this. People have seen multiple different versions of some of these characters on the screen. People are loyal to their version. The longer a character has been around and the more it gets re-imagined over the years the more it divides the audience. Sometimes people stay loyal through it all (which we will see if that happens when Marvel starts rebooting their films) but it seems with DCs characters people stay with the vision they like the best.

JMHO.

The problem with that is we represent such a small percentage of the movie going public. I don't think the general audience cares if it's Pre Crisis, Post Crisis, etc. as long as it's appealing to them. I get your analogy and if we were talking a smaller medium like a book, a direct to home video release, or even a limit series, go with an idea like Snyder but if you're looking to appeal to a broader demographic than you have to make something that isn't divisive.

Edit: And that Superman and Batman picture is already out of date because of Hoechlin and Pattinson.

 

[Tra-El]

I just felt for Zack [Snyder]. Zack’s like the nicest person ever, and to see him kind of talked about like that was really hard for me, because he’s really such a respectful director.”

-Amy Adams.

 

[Comicbookguy339]

-Amy Adams.

What was she referring to exactly?

 

[Tra-El]

What was she referring to exactly?

My gut instinct is either confirming on set with peers like Whedon talking **** or the online bashing that came with the critical drumming of BvS.

 

[Comicbookguy339]

I don't know if there's any truth behind this but I feel like Snyder gets hated on in nerd circles because he doesn't fit in with the classic nerd image. I think his insistence on everything having to look "cool" and his weight-lifting has given a ton of people the impression that he's some sort of dudebro i.e. "not one of us". If you listen to him talk for any extended length of time you, of course, realize it's not true but that's the feeling I've gotten. You can see the same mentality at work when fanboys harass women in nerd culture. Because they're beautiful and well-adjusted they can't possibly be into nerdy stuff. Because some of these guys were perhaps bullied in their youth by good-looking people they still carry that resentment with them.