🇪🇺 Discussion: The European Union

[Paradoxium]

Want to Buy a Piece of a Greek Island?

Some of the banks that is getting bailed out is probably going to come swooping in as well. Whole thing is a god damn travesty.

 

[Dr. Evil]

The capture of Ratko Mladic is one less hurdle for Serbia to join the European Union. Unfortunately, Serbia has a bunch of other hurdles to prevent them from joining the European Union.

 

[Kelly]

The capture of Ratko Mladic is one less hurdle for Serbia to join the European Union. Unfortunately, Serbia has a bunch of other hurdles to prevent them from joining the European Union.

If the EU does not know that Serbia knew exactly where Mladic was IN SERBIA, and the only reason they turned him over was to have a better chance of getting into the EU, then they are enormously stupid.

No one is going to be voted in for quite awhile, not after what has happened to Greece, and what is looming in Ireland, Spain and Portugal....they are going to hold off I think on any new countries coming in....they would be smart to pull Turkey in, but that will never happen as long as the Turkish government is pretty much a military theocracy...WOW, what a combination.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Iceland will probably be welcomed in. Mostly due to them being in the European Economic Area and Schengen Area.

 

[Paradoxium]

Moody just cut Greece's rating from B1 to Caa1. 7 notches away from junk territory.

 

[Kelly]

Iceland will probably be welcomed in. Mostly due to them being in the European Economic Area and Schengen Area.

I think Croatia will get in first...Iceland probably would not happen until 2013, and the people of Iceland do not want them to join the EU. Three groups especially farmers, FISHERMEN, and business owners, DO NOT want to join, I believe the last poll was around 60%, and it goes higher when asked if they believe their government will fight for their rights within the EU. The Fishermen are the big opponents to joining the EU, because right now Iceland alone exports more fish than the EU as a whole, why would they want to share??? And when that is your countries biggest export, that group of people have a lot of power. Can you see the fishermen giving up authority over their water? I don't think so...

So YES, it looks like an easy go as far the EU, they have already given them the greenlight to start the process, but the people of Iceland are a whole other story.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Anyone hear what the Italian idiot said to Obama at last week's G-8 Summit?

 

[Paradoxium]

GREECE UPDATE: G7 Financial Ministers Hold Phone Meeting, There Are Reports Of Bailout Deal Crumbling

We should rename thread: "The European Union: "Greece Deathwatch" Edition"

 

[hippie_hunter]

Greenspan said it best in that Greece defaulting is not a matter of if, but when.

 

[Paradoxium]

Europe delays decision on emergency loans to Greece
- Reuters

Finance Ministers Fail to Agree on Greek Aid
- Bloomberg

not looking good for Greece now

I say DEFAULT!

 

[Handsome Rob]

Greenspan said it best in that Greece defaulting is not a matter of if, but when.

I agree. The actions they take are only delaying the inevitable. Progressivism is brought to its ultimate terminus with what is happening to Greece, now. You can't defeat math.

 

[Paradoxium]

Maybe if we can regulate the laws of arithmetic we can solve this problem. This is Reagan's fault, no thanks to deregulation of math. And Faux News

 

[Paradoxium]

Greece Is About To Get Hit With Widespread Blackouts, As Power Workers Go On Strike Monday

So much fail, my god fail train is fail.

 

[Handsome Rob]

Maybe if we can regulate the laws of arithmetic we can solve this problem. This is Reagan's fault, no thanks to deregulation of math. And Faux News

Regulation does solve all problems at no cost or negative consequences whatsoever.

I'm pretty convinced, myself, that Roger Ailes and the Koch brothers are paying the protesters over in Europe to protest AND paying the governments of the PIGS countries to invent financial difficulties. Progressivism cannot, in reality, result in anything but:

[YT]8jr9hPbYmBo[/YT]

It's all a scheme to make Sarah Palin the right-wing, fascist dictator of the world and starve, deny health care to, and eventually kill off the old people . . . and minorities . . . and "the children."

 

[chaseter]

Greece is full of so many idiots. That is what happens when you have people on the government teat that has now dried out.

 

[Paradoxium]

Europe: The Art of Living off Another

In a nutshell.

 

[Matt]

Greece Is About To Get Hit With Widespread Blackouts, As Power Workers Go On Strike Monday

So much fail, my god fail train is fail.

Dox, this isn't funny. Think of how many Greek people will suffer due to the incompetence of the government. Yes, they voted them in....but none the less. Greece is on the verge of becoming a third world country. The people of Greece do not deserve this. It is a sad, tragic situation.

 

[StorminNorman]

'Dox explains his philosophy every time he posts.

Enjoy the Decline
As you sow so shall you reap.

The fact is that what is happening in Greece is the result of the actions taking by the Greek people. Just as what will happen to America is the result of the actions of the American people.

 

[chaseter]

Dox, this isn't funny. Think of how many Greek people will suffer due to the incompetence of the government. Yes, they voted them in....but none the less. Greece is on the verge of becoming a third world country. The people of Greece do not deserve this. It is a sad, tragic situation.

It is the people's fault. They voted the people in that would get them the most from the government. When everyone has to cut back, they go on strike? The people of Greece would rather their country go bankrupt than cut down on entitlements. They need a wake up call and this is it.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I really wouldn't consider this to be the people's fault when the core root of the problem lies with Greece's government lying about their financial numbers for years. If they were honest about it, austerity would have probably occurred much sooner and in a less painful manner as opposed to now where the international community is forcing them to do it in the harshest manner possible.

 

[Paradoxium]

Dox, this isn't funny. Think of how many Greek people will suffer due to the incompetence of the government. Yes, they voted them in....but none the less. Greece is on the verge of becoming a third world country. The people of Greece do not deserve this. It is a sad, tragic situation.

It's funny because you get mocked very hard about your warnings and solution, and when it happens, the reality of it comes down so hard. And probably? They won't learn the lesson. Right now they don't even understand the consequences of bankruptcy. They plow on forward. The absurdity of it, the illusion life can keep going on as is and defy the natural laws of mathematics. The problem is the political system and what it encourages. There is simply no reason to be frugal or fiscally conservative. To quote Patri since he puts it down better than I would:

Rational Ignorance. Because the chance of changing the results of an election is (in many cases) zero, it does not pay voters to be well informed. This stands in direct contrast to other decisions one makes in life, such as buying a car, or choosing a job, where the decision-maker reaps the full cost or benefit of his or her decision.

Terrible feedback mechanisms. The feedback in a democracy comes from occasional elections for candidates with a large package of positions. This is very bad feedback.

Concentrated vs. Dispersed interests. The result of rational ignorance and bad feedback is that policies in a democracy very often consist of transfers of small amounts of wealth from many into the hands of a few (at a net loss). The benefactors of such a policy know what it does and who they are, and can join and lobby effectively for it. Those hurt are typically only losing a small amount (a few dollars each), and don't realize what has happened. Even if they did realize, it is not worth people's time to organize and lobby to save each of them a few bucks. And there is no good mechanism to aggregate all these small interests into a large one.

Jonathan Wilde:

What would happen in a country that was made up of 50% libertarians and 50% big government advocates? The following is my best guess though I am open to persuasion.

That country would end up with two political parties each splitting support from half of the libertarians and half of the big government advocates. The result would be big government.

In politics, power is rewarded to those who give a return on investment. A corporation can make money for itself in two basic ways.

It can invest resources in the free market: by creating a better product, a more efficient manufacturing process, smarter advertising, etc. If it invests wisely, it will achieve a positive return on investment.

It can invest resources in the government. It can give campaign donations to political parties to get politicians elected who then pass legislation that benefit the corporation. Politicians can get away with this because the laws cost the average person very little individually but yield a large benefit to the corporation as an aggregate.

As an example, suppose ACME, Inc has $1 million to invest. What should it do?

It can invest $1 million in the free market and its management believes that will yield a 20% return on investment, i.e., it will end up with $1.2 million.

As an alternative, management perceives that it can invest $1 million in the government which will then pass tariffs against foreign competition. For the average american buyer of the ACME's widgets, this will mean $1 in higher prices in widgets. If there are 2 million buyers, this means $2 million in revenues for the corporation. Its return on investment in the government will be 100%.

Note the difference between the amount of cost to each consumer vs the profit for the corporation.

Whether the ACME invests in the free market or in the government will usually depend on where management believes the return on investment is higher.

It is in a politician's interests to cater to corporations because the money invested by corporations in government is needed to run campaigns, advertise, and win elections. Politicians can afford to do this because voters won't get angry at such a small rise in prices. They'll barely notice it. But the corporation will notice the benefit of the large return. Why play fair in the free market when it can bend the rules via the government and achieve a higher return?

This strategy is not just open to corporations, but also to any group. A union can bribe politicians to pass laws that ward off competition from other workers. The costs that the average American incurs are very small individually, but the unions benefit greatly through increased job security from the captured monopoly on labor. The same tactic can be used by any special interests group - trade organizations, environmentalists, moral authoritarians, etc. It is often in these groups' interests to invest in government for a focal benefit whose costs are dispersed enough that it doesn't hurt the popularity of the government in power.

 

[Paradoxium]

A fiscal conservative or a libertarian in a (de facto) Democracy is an oxymoron.

 

[Dr. Evil]

The European Union threatens new sanctions towards Syria.

 

[chaseter]

I really wouldn't consider this to be the people's fault when the core root of the problem lies with Greece's government lying about their financial numbers for years. If they were honest about it, austerity would have probably occurred much sooner and in a less painful manner as opposed to now where the international community is forcing them to do it in the harshest manner possible.

They vote these people in. It's like California. The state is in the red so much money and businesses are running out because of reckless politicians that are voted in by naive people. Then when push comes to shove, people get upset that they have to take cuts or else the country goes into liquidation.

Yes the politicians are partly to blame but I am sure nobody was throwing a fit over all the government spending that got them into this mess. The politicians give money to the people in return for their vote. It's a vicious cycle and the politician isn't going to break it. They aren't going to stop or leave office.

 

[hippie_hunter]

They vote these people in. It's like California. The state is in the red so much money and businesses are running out because of reckless politicians that are voted in by naive people. Then when push comes to shove, people get upset that they have to take cuts or else the country goes liquidation.

The difference is that California's voters approved of politicians who have continuously spent money and approve of measures that spend more money. Californians asked for it.

Greek voters on the other hand did not ask for their government to lie about their finances. If their government was honest about their finances from the get-go, austerity would probably come a lot smoother from the government and more receptive by the public. And the austerity measures probably wouldn't be as harsh if the government didn't lie from the get-go. Most Greeks were originally reluctantly receptive of the austerity measures and bailouts because they saw it as something that was necessary. But as the situation continued to deteriorate and foreign powers became more intrusive.....that's when they started to get pissed off.