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🇷🇺🇺🇦 Discussion: Relations with Russia and the war in Ukraine

MagnarTheGreat said:
CNN - EU agrees on partial ban of Russian oil imports
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Better than nothing, but i get so furious when it comes to the Oil and Gas stuff.
For years and years and years people scream for Politicans to invest so much more into other energy sources, and now we reached the point where they catch up and desperatly look for what we could have long ago.

On that front we will only slightly hurt Russia since they will get their share from India, china etc while we have to worry and deal with years of reckless politics that now leave us in a bad position.
 
War with Russia is coming whether we acknowledge it or not.
Perhaps a limited conventional war, or, a full on nuclear one. Either way, it's coming.
Our political differences won't mean squat then.
 
GreenKToo said:
War with Russia is coming whether we acknowledge it or not.
Perhaps a limited conventional war, or, a full on nuclear one. Either way, it's coming.
Our political differences won't mean squat then.
Click to expand...
It's possible, but I don't think that's the case. The US seems to be doing everything it can to stay out of a face to face conflict while aiding to stop the expansionism. At this point, I don't think Russia could win a conventional war even against the EU and wouldn't want to risk it. If there isn't a political change in Russia, who knows what could happen. I would be interested in hearing your reasoning that a war is inevitable.
 
InCali said:
It's possible, but I don't think that's the case. The US seems to be doing everything it can to stay out of a face to face conflict while aiding to stop the expansionism. At this point, I don't think Russia could win a conventional war even against the EU and wouldn't want to risk it. If there isn't a political change in Russia, who knows what could happen. I would be interested in hearing your reasoning that a war is inevitable.
Click to expand...

Russia isn't run by reasonable people. They're imperialists, criminals, tough men, and thugs. And for the past century the West has been giving them reasons to hate us. America's mere existence is a threat to Russia and its ambition because of our modern anti-imperialist ideas. There is no world in which Russia and America can co-exist and both achieve their highest ambitions, and unlike America Russia is old school. They are willing to go to war, rape, pillage, and plunder to secure their future.

And if we only focus on Putin its even more grim. Putin has said in no uncertain terms that the collapse of the USSR was the worst event in history. He was KGB, FSB and a Cold War loyalist to the bone. He believes all the Soviet BS. And America for decades made every effort to foul up the Soviet Union's plans and future to the point the USSR collapsed. We may not have been entirely responsible, but to someone like Putin any responsibility on our part is worse than any responsibility the USSR played in its own destruction. Then there is the rumor he is dying. He may not be able to resurrect the USSR, but by God he can make sure the West suffers, and he can do it without any consequences if he is already dying. What makes you so sure he wont launch nukes on his deathbed as his last act just to spite the West. You might be thinking that's too fantastical or a Tom Clancy plot, but the fact is Putin is a bitter madman that has had decades to think about how he wants to leave this world and he chose to commit one of the most costly and heinous illegal wars in modern history. Nothing is off the table for him, and it only takes a few people following his orders to launch nukes at us.

Appeasing Russia and allowing the rape, torture, and butchery of millions cant save us from nuclear war, or gain us brownie points with Russia. It won't tip some scales in Putin's mind towards peace. He won't look kindly on us for it. One day him or another Russian will decide America is an obstruction that can no longer be tolerated or allowed and Russia will nuke us or try to conquer us.

The way I see it the US has been at war with Russia since the communist revolution, and
any moments of "peace" have been little more than ceasefires and opportunities borne out of necessity. No one should forget that Russia joined Hitler, and the only reason they came to the Allies was Hitler betrayed them. Theyve been an enemy for generations. And Id prefer we not let Russia get us before we get them or allow them to brutalize our allies and grow stronger simply to save our own asses from an inevitable outcome.

We shouldn't nuke them first, and by all means attempt to avoid invading Russia or attacking them in their own borders, but we shouldn't avoid military conflict altogether when they leave their borders and commit blatant crimes and wage illegal wars. We should engage them outside their border and if Russia launches nukes then we will deal with it. I have some faith in our absurdly expensive and comprehensive military defenses.


But I think you're probably a bit more optimistic or hopeful about this than I am. And I know you have responsibilities and fears that I don't have. A war with Russia would effect me but probably not as much as it would effect you so I'm not trying to change your mind or convince you. Mainly I'm just talking about how I think Russia fits in with America and where we're heading. And who knows,, maybe Putin's replacement could turn this around and reform Russia. Id love to be wrong about Russia entirely and to see a genuinely good Russia that we could coexist with and benefit alongside.
 
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Marvolo said:
Russia isn't run by reasonable people. They're imperialists, criminals, tough men, and thugs. And for the past century the West has been giving them reasons to hate us. America's mere existence is a threat to Russia and its ambition because of our modern anti-imperialist ideas. There is no world in which Russia and America can co-exist and both achieve their highest ambitions, and unlike America Russia is old school. They are willing to go to war, rape, pillage, and plunder to secure their future.

And if we only focus on Putin its even more grim. Putin has said in no uncertain terms that the collapse of the USSR was the worst event in history. He was KGB, FSB and a Cold War loyalist to the bone. He believes all the Soviet BS.
Click to expand...

That's not true at all. Putin actually said in his pre-invasion speech that he blames Lenin for the very existence of Ukraine. Y'see, Putin thinks that Lenin's establishment of a Ukrainian republic within the USSR was a great crime against the Russian people as in his mind this was drawing an artificial boundary between "Great Russia" (i.e. Russia) and "Lesser Russia" (i.e. Ukraine).

What Putin actually longs for isn't the USSR, but rather the Tsarist Russian Empire from before 1917. Because under the tsars, even the very existence of Ukraine was denied and the Ukrainian language was banned.

This isn't to say that the Bolsheviks were pro-Ukrainian or anything (remember Stalin's famine?), but simply that they were at least pragmatic enough to acknowledge that the people of Ukraine saw themselves as a separate nation from Russia. As a result, Lenin was willing to grant the Ukrainians a fig leaf of independence in order to pacify the country and bring it under Soviet rule.

Putin rejects this, however, and instead believes that Ukrainians should be forced to become Russians. And if they reject it, then they deserve to die.
 
True, it's a petrol-gangster state with nukes.

I watched a documentary on Russian history a couple of months ago and the past 1000 years there has been dire really.
 
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MagnarTheGreat said:
The alternative to humiliation is the Russian genocide of Ukraine.

Ukraine minister fires back after France’s Macron said not to ‘humiliate Russia’
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I guess reclaiming the territory illegally seized from you = humiliating someone???

One thing I really don't understand is this concept that Russia can come in and take over territory, bomb the S*** out of civilian targets they haven't annexed, and launch longer range bombs from their own territory, but Ukraine bombing Russian positions outside Ukraine isn't okay.
 
InCali said:
I guess reclaiming the territory illegally seized from you = humiliating someone???

One thing I really don't understand is this concept that Russia can come in and take over territory, bomb the S*** out of civilian targets they haven't annexed, and launch longer range bombs from their own territory, but Ukraine bombing Russian positions outside Ukraine isn't okay.
Click to expand...
We have to make sure the bully’s feelings aren’t hurt and that they get enough enjoyment/reward from beating up their victim.
 
Sounds like things are getting worse for Ukraine. I really don't want them to lose. :(
 
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