2008 Olympics - Political Discussion Thread

[Matt]

As Jag said:

More than any other Olympics in recent history, this one has a massive amount of political tension attached to it.

Therefore, feel free to discuss all politics related to the 2008 Olympic Games in Beijing in this thread

 

[BlackLantern]

Yay....

 

[jaguarr]

Excellent. I'll get us kicked off with a post I made in the Oly thread in the Sports forum:

http://www.internetnews.com/comment...hat+If+Chinas+Orwellian+Olympics+Succeeds.htm

What If China's Orwellian Olympics Succeeds?
By Mike Elgan
August 8, 2008

By the end of the Olympic games, we'll know whether the Chinese government's unprecedented application of state-of-the-art digital technology to Orwellian social control can actually work.

Call it Orwellian IT. If you're attending the Olympics: Oh, boy, is Big Brother watching you. According to Chinese authorities, the government has installed:

• 300,000 surveillance cameras

• Remotely controlled microphones, GPS devices and kill switches in all 70,000 Beijing taxicabs

• Microphones in many or most hotel rooms and offices

• Equipment to tap all landline and cell phone calls in China

The government is also fielding all kinds of "advanced" security technologies. For example, anti-terror police are using Segways, net-throwing guns, and other exotic hardware.

The U.S. government tells Americans traveling to Beijing to assume that laptops, cell phones and other devices will be hacked, and information on them copied, during the games.

One expert warns that even digital cameras could be hacked by the Chinese government if plugged into one of the many digital photo-viewing kiosks in the city.

Most taxi drivers and other attendee-facing people in China have reportedly been "recruited" as "intelligence agents" ordered to report any suspicious behavior.

The government has deployed 100,000 police in Beijing alone during the games, plus another 100,000 People's Liberation Army soldiers and 600,000 "security volunteers," whose job is to report "suspicious behavior."

These 800,000 people are the public face of Olympic security. Behind the scenes, an unknowable number of people are monitoring all those cameras and microphones; hacking computers and stealing secrets; monitoring web sites and reading e-mail; listening to phone calls and tracking the movements of suspicious people.

Of course, the terrorist threat to the Olympics is real. But most of the security effort is aimed at snuffing out protest or criticism of the government.

Censorship remains in place. Thousands of dissidents have been rounded up and jailed. Beijing residents have been intimidated into a state of terror.

Many journalists have been denied entry to China to cover the games, and access by journalists to many Web sites has been blocked, despite the unblocking of some after initial protest. E-mail of foreign journalists covering the games is selectively blocked by Chinese authorities.

Those publicly critical of the Beijing government have been denied entry into China for the games, including former gold medalist Olympians.

I predicted in this space in December that the Olympics would prove a "disaster" for the Chinese government because dissident groups and disgruntled citizens will likely do all they can to use the Olympics to gain attention for their causes and grievances. The government, I predicted, would crack down harshly, and this authoritarian, anti-democratic activity would become the main event at the games. When China was granted the 2008 games seven years ago, Chinese officials said the games would bring China the "respect, trust and favor of the international community." My prediction was that China's handling of security will bring China the opposite.

But what if I'm wrong?

What if the Olympics turn out to be the public relations coup of the century for China's authoritarian government?

End Part 1.

jag

 

[jaguarr]

www.internetnews.com/commentary/article.php/3764136

Part 2 of 2

What If China's Orwellian Olympics Succeeds?
By Mike Elgan
August 8, 2008

Nothing on this scale has ever been attempted. What if China demonstrates that overwhelming, all-encompassing and ubiquitous digital surveillance, eavesdropping on a massive scale, censorship, the banning and arresting of "undesirables," and other Orwellian measures is the path to success for international events. For governing in an age of free speech?

The pass/fail test on this won't be whether all these systems successfully stop terrorist attacks and muzzle free speech. That's Beijing's metric.

The question is: Will Beijing get away with it? Will people -- both Chinese citizens and foreign visitors -- shrug their shoulders and accept it all? Or will they reject it and criticize it?

Will journalists do as their told, or will they go out and report conditions in China as they do in all other countries that host the Olympics? Will athletes serve as unwitting apologists for the Chinese Communist Party?

Will the global public remain apathetic about Beijing's Orwellian experiment? Will everyone trot out the old "China-isn't-perfect-but-it's-moving-in-the-right-direction" defense? Is world depicted in Orwell's "1984" really the "right direction" for anyone?

It's the classic slippery slope. All governments, and most companies, engage in some kind of security, which often involves snooping, surveillance, activity monitoring and censorship. If Beijing proves that people accept the massive application of electronic Orwellianism, they'll be tempted to follow China's example.

The Chinese government has made itself the only organization in the world that knows how to do this.

Will governments turn to China after future terrorist attacks or threats to public order to learn how to build and maintain their own Orwellian IT systems? Will China advise its allies in Darfur, North Korea, Burma and elsewhere on how to maintain power and snuff out dissent through Orwellian IT?

For the sake of the athletes, I hope the Beijing Olympics are a successful sporting event.

And for the safety of Chinese and foreign visitors, I hope all terrorist attacks are foiled, and that there are no accidents, injuries or violence.

But for the sake of humanity, I hope Beijing's Orwellian IT experiment fails.

jag

 

[Matt]

Great article, though I do think it is being a bit dramatic. I can't see any western country adopting these methods.

 

[The Senator]

I'm not watching the Olympics because of China's disgusting human rights violations. I do not think a country which imprisons people for speaking out against its government, executes people for their religious beliefs, or spreads the HIV virus throughout its peasantry deserves to host the most diplomatic event in world history. I am also strongly convinced that China bribed the IOC in order to host the games in Beijing, a city which is so polluted the athletes couldn't train there.

 

[BlackLantern]

Some of the teams are staying in Taipei and commuting into Beijing....

 

[jaguarr]

Great article, though I do think it is being a bit dramatic. I can't see any western country adopting these methods.

Maybe not overtly, but the technology exists, therefore it will eventually be abused by someone in Western Civilization. Hell, look at all the cameras all over NYC and Boston for example. Look at the wire-tapping capabilities of the NSA. I truly do not trust our own government to resist abusing technology.

jag

 

[Matt]

Nor do I, but I do have faith in our political system and the checks and balances it provides. We have an adversarial political set up, so we can sleep sound knowing as long as one side supports abusing such technology, one side will stop at nothing to expose it so they can derail them and take over (and then try to use the technology themselves and repeat the process).

 

[hippie_hunter]

When I went to China and saw the construction of what they needed for the Olympics I was very impressed. Everywhere I went there were advertisements for the Olympic games that were coming in 2 years. I also saw how Chinese athletes were training for recreation, sport, etc. and saw the determination they have, particularly in beating the United States. Again, I was very impressed.

However I too am boycotting the Olympics for the reasons jmanspice said. I'm just keeping watch of the Medal Tracker hoping that the United States will come out on top over China (which right now it is in the lead).

 

[jaguarr]

Nor do I, but I do have faith in our political system and the checks and balances it provides. We have an adversarial political set up, so we can sleep sound knowing as long as one side supports abusing such technology, one side will stop at nothing to expose it so they can derail them and take over (and then try to use the technology themselves and repeat the process).

We've already had things happen that have proven that people in power will find ways to circumvent or go around the checks and balances in order to abuse technology and civil rights. Color me apprehensive at best.

jag

 

[BlackLantern]

The one thing that sticks in my craw is the fact the Chinese government simply restricts the flow of information and travel....you can't travel outside of China unless you are financially well off, and even then the government has to approve it...

I'm willing to bet that if the Chinese people, at large, knew of the world outside their country, we'd probably see quite the exodus from China....

 

[jaguarr]

The one thing that sticks in my craw is the fact the Chinese government simply restricts the flow of information and travel....you can't travel outside of China unless you are financially well off, and even then the government has to approve it...

I'm willing to bet that if the Chinese people, at large, knew of the world outside their country, we'd probably see quite the exodus from China....

My acupuncturist is from China. She was lucky enough to get out and is now a U.S. citizen. She still visits her family there a couple times a year. She says that a lot of people there truly have no idea just how repressed they really are and that she can't fathom ever living in that country again because of the things that go on there at the hands of their own government.

jag

 

[SuperJediHero]

I am curious to what reporters now in China will say when they return to America.

All of you people, sitting comfortably in Rich America homes, never ever been to China in your lifes act like you know SO much about China is amusing. I think you might want to hear what these reporters will say about China when they come back, first!

Well, I am going to reserve my comments until that. Right now, I don't act like I've personally seen a Chinese being shot or jailed for 'Freedom of speech'.

 

[SuperJediHero]

Great article, though I do think it is being a bit dramatic. I can't see any western country adopting these methods.

I rather hear what more reputable sources like CNN, NBC says.

 

[BlackLantern]

I am curious to what reporters now in China will say when they return to America.

All of you people, sitting comfortably in Rich America homes, never ever been to China in your lifes act like you know SO much about China is amusing. I think you might want to hear what these reporters will say about China when they come back, first!

Well, I am going to reserve my comments until that. Right now, I don't act like I've personally seen a Chinese being shot or jailed for 'Freedom of speech'.

Actually, I have visited China on 2 separate occasions....1 visit to Hong Kong and a visit to Beijing about 7 years ago....

that aside...my main question is why doesn't the Chinese government allow its people to travel freely in and out of the country??? Why does the government see fit to control the flow of information in and out of the country?

 

[FaT_tONle]

Edit

 

[jaguarr]

I rather hear what more reputable sources like CNN, NBC says.

In the other Olympic thread, weren't you adamantly decrying that us dirty Americans only get our news from American news sources that scrub the information and sanitize it before we see it, so we only see what they and out government want us to see? And now you're whipping out CNN and NBC as reputable? What about overseas media from France, Germany, Spain, Singapore, Japan, etc.? I really hope you aren't discounting them, because there is some fantastic news and perspective to be culled from many of their daily's.

jag

 

[jaguarr]

I am curious to what reporters now in China will say when they return to America.

All of you people, sitting comfortably in Rich America homes, never ever been to China in your lifes act like you know SO much about China is amusing. I think you might want to hear what these reporters will say about China when they come back, first!

Well, I am going to reserve my comments until that. Right now, I don't act like I've personally seen a Chinese being shot or jailed for 'Freedom of speech'.

Who here purports to have personally seen a Chinese person being shot or jailed for voicing their opinions? Certainly not I. But I don't have to personally see it to know it happens. So what exactly is your point? And what country are you from so we can insult your homeland openly like you seem prone to do ours? Also, I'd like to know if you have ever been to China.

As far as American reporters coming back from China with stories to tell, you've already stated previously that the media in America is corrupt and doesn't tell the populace the whole story about things, so what makes you think they would tell us anything bad about China or different from what they already have once they got back from there?

jag

 

[The Senator]

I am curious to what reporters now in China will say when they return to America.

All of you people, sitting comfortably in Rich America homes, never ever been to China in your lifes act like you know SO much about China is amusing. I think you might want to hear what these reporters will say about China when they come back, first!

Well, I am going to reserve my comments until that. Right now, I don't act like I've personally seen a Chinese being shot or jailed for 'Freedom of speech'.

Spoiler

I was in China last August, and yeah, it's not a pretty place.

 

[SuperJediHero]

And what country are you from so we can insult your homeland openly like you seem prone to do ours? Also, I'd like to know if you have ever been to China.

jag

You have NO idea at all what you are talking about, you know that?

I love America, I live in America, but I just do not agree or like the idea that people in America harshly critize China (Or other countries) like you guys are doing. Worry about your OWN country (America) Not other countries you don't live in!

STOP being SO nosy! China is not ruled by America, No one have any rights to tell China what to do!!!

Certainly, you have heard education here in America PALES to China, so maybe that's an Area you all American advocates should worry about MORE than Another country you have NO business to worry about!

 

[jaguarr]

You have NO idea at all what you are talking about, you know that?

I love America, I live in America, but I just do not agree or like the idea that people in America harshly critize China (Or other countries) like you guys are doing, worry about your OWN country (America) Not other countries you don't live in!

Oh, I get it. You're a self-loathing American, then. The way you speak about Americans led me to believe you weren't in this country. This is somehow even worse. My apologies for assuming you were a foreigner based on all your disparaging remarks about your fellow countrymen. I'm sorry you are unable to simultaneously care both about your own country and the rest of the world in which we live. They are not mutually exclusive concepts, you know. You CAN do both. At the same time, even.

jag

 

[Marx]

You have NO idea at all what you are talking about, you know that?

I love America, I live in America, but I just do not agree or like the idea that people in America harshly critize China (Or other countries) like you guys are doing, worry about your OWN country (America) Not other countries you don't live in!

Those who would seek to criticize China do so because of the country's actions abroad. As well as their policy toward their own citizens.

People bash American all the time. It is perfectly acceptable to to criticize other countries as well.

 

[BlackLantern]

We know America isn't perfect...every country/society has its issues....but freedom of speech doesn't protect speech you like...it protects speech you hate....Larry Flynt said that after his victory in the Supreme Court....

You don't like people criticizing China....well tough ****....

 

[SuperJediHero]

You don't like people criticizing China....well tough ****....

I don't like America mind other countries (not just China but also Iraq, Korea) business, period.


ALL Bush did as a president is he worry about Foreign business. But, now Gas price, food price, things are so expensive. Economy is in an All-time LOW! God I am so Disgusted!!!

I Hate Bush so much!!!!

WORST. President. Ever!

GO OBAMA!!!