2011 NFL Thread: The Lazarus Season - Part 8

[KalMart]

Eli is underrated. Eli is not elite. Eli is at the lower end of the top ten. But really, with 30 starting QBs, is being in the top 1/3 really elite? You have to draw the line. IMO, the top three/top 10 % would qualify as elite and that would be Rodgers, Brady and Brees (in no particular order). Now I suppose the argument can be made for top 5 (I personally would throw in Rivers and Roethlisberger). Eli is very good this season. He is not as good as guys like Rodgers, Brady and Brees. Not even on his best day and their worst. Thus, he is not elite.

And if you want to get really picky, he is the worst starting quarterback of his draft class alone, so what does that say?

Depends on how you define 'elite'. There's always the summit's tip...the super-QB's like Peyton and Brady (like Montana, Elway, and Marino of the past)...and Rogers could be up there with another ring. No, that's not Eli. Is Eli in that next echelon with the likes of Drew Brees, maybe Big Ben? Honesty, to me it depends on how many you're willing to allow into that echelon. He'd be mid-to-lower....but just start listing all the teams out there, division by division, and see how many you'd rate him above.

Granted, there are some young ones who could be one of the best in the near future like Newton or maybe Stafford. Let's take names like Flacco, Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Romo, Vic, Grossman, Hasselbeck, Sanchez....where would you place them and Eli if you had to list them out? If you went top/elite (the super-QB's), the the excellent, then kinda' everyone else...I would put him in the second echelon if you were willing to accept more than, say, four..and not quite put Brees and Rogers squarely in the top. I'd comfortably put him ahead of Flacco, Cutler, Ryan, Romo and Sanchez...and he obviously belongs as a legitimate franchise starter rather than a still-yet-to-be-determined.

Elite? Not if you define Brady, Peyton, and soon-to-be Rogers that way, no. But that's a lot to ask, and rarified air in any era...I don't think anyone believes he'll ever be that. Maybe a better question is 'can you win with him?'...can he be the guy who unquestionably leads your offense and who can put it all on his own shoulders when need be? I think this year has secured that as a yes for a lot of doubters (the Superbowl aside). As a franchise, if he's your guy...are you good with that, or are you leaving the door open to something better out there (within reason)? And then how does he rank compared to others that you'd feel the same way about?

As a Giants fan...he's our guy. No question...and we feel good about that. How good is he compared to others? That might just be a stat thing at that point.

 

[KalMart]

Oh...and as far as interceptions go...Brett Favre, who many consider an all-time elite QB, has more than Eli will probably ever have...at least a lot more genuinely erroneous/stupid/reckless ones.

 

[Matt]

I agree with this notion where Eli is not elite, but just dangling out of that zone.

I only classify Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Philip Rivers and possibly Big Ben as elite.

As great as Eli has been in recent memory, he's struggled and been inconsistent.

Anyone remember his first three years in the league? Giants fans were already questioning whether or not Eli was a bust, and the NY media was absolutely brutal towards him.

I wouldn't even call him just dangling out of that zone. Eli still makes rookie mistakes and throws an unacceptable amount of interceptions. Whether or not it is the fault of his "receivers," he is still the one throwing them. A quarterback who averages 18 interceptions per season, has only gone one season where has thrown single digit interceptions (and it was his rookie year when he only started 9 games and threw as many picks) and still makes dumb rookie mistakes as a veteran is not elite.

But does he really have to be? Eli works for New York. There isn't a realistically better quarterback on the market for them. Eli wins big games for them. So why sweat it over whether he is elite or not?

 

[steintym]

Glad the Bears' death spiral is almost over. The season did not end the way I thought it would a couple of weeks ago. Thanks Hanie ...

 

[Matt]

Depends on how you define 'elite'. There's always the summit's tip...the super-QB's like Peyton and Brady (like Montana, Elway, and Marino of the past)...and Rogers could be up there with another ring. No, that's not Eli. Is Eli in that next echelon with the likes of Drew Brees, maybe Big Ben? Honesty, to me it depends on how many you're willing to allow into that echelon. He'd be mid-to-lower....but just start listing all the teams out there, division by division, and see how many you'd rate him above.

Granted, there are some young ones who could be one of the best in the near future like Newton or maybe Stafford. Let's take names like Flacco, Rivers, Cutler, Ryan, Romo, Vic, Grossman, Hasselbeck, Sanchez....where would you place them and Eli if you had to list them out? If you went top/elite (the super-QB's), the the excellent, then kinda' everyone else...I would put him in the second echelon if you were willing to accept more than, say, four..and not quite put Brees and Rogers squarely in the top. I'd comfortably put him ahead of Flacco, Cutler, Ryan, Romo and Sanchez...and he obviously belongs as a legitimate franchise starter rather than a still-yet-to-be-determined.

Elite? Not if you define Brady, Peyton, and soon-to-be Rogers that way, no. But that's a lot to ask, and rarified air in any era...I don't think anyone believes he'll ever be that. Maybe a better question is 'can you win with him?'...can he be the guy who unquestionably leads your offense and who can put it all on his own shoulders when need be? I think this year has secured that as a yes for a lot of doubters (the Superbowl aside). As a franchise, if he's your guy...are you good with that, or are you leaving the door open to something better out there (within reason)? And then how does he rank compared to others that you'd feel the same way about?

As a Giants fan...he's our guy. No question...and we feel good about that. How good is he compared to others? That might just be a stat thing at that point.

My point exactly. He is not elite. But he is a good match for New York, for the time being.

Oh...and as far as interceptions go...Brett Favre, who many consider an all-time elite QB, has more than Eli will probably ever have...at least a lot more genuinely erroneous/stupid/reckless ones.

But Brett Favre also put up 35-40 touchdowns per season at the same point in his career as Eli. The most TDs Eli has ever thrown in one season was 31, compared to 25 picks. Brett Favre may have put up 20+ picks per year, but he'd also throw a hell of a lot of touchdowns to make up for it. Eli doesn't do that, not at Favre's level anyway, so the comparison isn't really strong.

 

[Matt]

Glad the Bears' death spiral is almost over. The season did not end the way I thought it would a couple of weeks ago. Thanks Hanie ...

It is more the front office's fault than Haine's.

 

[KalMart]

But Brett Favre also put up 35-40 touchdowns per season at the same point in his career as Eli. The most TDs Eli has ever thrown in one season was 31, compared to 25 picks. Brett Favre may have put up 20+ picks per year, but he'd also throw a hell of a lot of touchdowns to make up for it. Eli doesn't do that, not at Favre's level anyway, so the comparison isn't really strong.

You could also argue that Favre's INT's have been more costly than Eli's, though. Basically, Eli's INTs haven't been what you'd take his job away for, or not count on him as your guy. He probably wouldn't still be doing what he does if they were. And as pointed out, more of his INT's have been from miscatches and so on as time has progressed. It's not like he's throwing an uncatchable ball, or a bad choice more. Sure, an INT is an INT stat-wise, but if it's the same type of throw,decision that other receiver should and do make...well...it does mean something. Again, the fact that he's taken more seriously now and that his stats have improved have done more to secure him high on the list, so to speak.

I wouldn't even call him just dangling out of that zone. Eli still makes rookie mistakes and throws an unacceptable amount of interceptions. Whether or not it is the fault of his "receivers," he is still the one throwing them. A quarterback who averages 18 interceptions per season, has only gone one season where has thrown single digit interceptions (and it was his rookie year when he only started 9 games and threw as many picks) and still makes dumb rookie mistakes as a veteran is not elite.

Ah, but he hasn't, say, thrown interceptions or dropped snaps in playoff overtimes or winning kicks, though. And I'd say he's still gotten his team to much more of those situations and won them, than messed them up or lost them. They don't happen a lot for anyone, but when they do...it leaves a hell of a mark.

But does he really have to be? Eli works for New York. There isn't a realistically better quarterback on the market for them. Eli wins big games for them. So why sweat it over whether he is elite or not?

But yeah, let's say he's securely good enough not to have to be an 'Elite'. Put it this way...I'd rather he be himself on a program that might still have some hope, rather than Marino on the Dolphins for all those years.

 

[Matt]

What was Favre's INT %?

But yeah, let's say he's securely good enough not to have to be an 'Elite'. Put it this way...I'd rather he be himself on a program that might still have some hope, rather than Marino on the Dolphins for all those years.

At the same point in his career as Eli (8 years as a starter) Brett Favre had thrown 139 interceptions in the regular season compared to Eli's 129. However, Favre had also, in the regular season thrown for 235 touchdowns, compared to Eli's 182. So while Favre threw 10 more interceptions, he also threw for 52 more touchdowns than Eli. Like I said, the comparison doesn't work because while Favre had an interception risk, the chance for reward was FAR greater than Eli and that is why Favre is elite and Eli is not.

 

[KalMart]

At the same point in his career as Eli (8 years as a starter) Brett Favre had thrown 139 interceptions in the regular season compared to Eli's 129. However, Favre had also, in the regular season thrown for 235 touchdowns, compared to Eli's 182. So while Favre threw 10 more interceptions, he also threw for 52 more touchdowns than Eli. Like I said, the comparison doesn't work because while Favre had an interception risk, the chance for reward was FAR greater than Eli and that is why Favre is elite and Eli is not.

No doubt Favre is considered more of an 'Elite' from the word go, to. But how big was Green Bay's running game when Favre was there...should they have used it more? Were Favre's higher TD's more out of necessity? There's a lot that goes into everything.

Again, despite his INTs and other negative stats...with Eli, for some reason, it doesn't seem to sting him and the team as badly in the bigger situations than others., No-one' going to say that Eli is a better QB than Favre....then again, whose liabilities are more costly? I think that's a bit more complex a question....but perhaps ultimately as inconsequential as who's 'better'.

Any way you look at it, Eli's a legitimate franchise/starter, not a journeyman. I think Flacco could end up being a current-day Vinny Tesaverde, though.

 

[Matt]

No doubt Favre is considered more of an 'Elite' from the word go, to. But how big was Green Bay's running game when Favre was there...should they have used it more? Were Favre's higher TD's more out of necessity? There's a lot that goes into everything.

Again, despite his INTs and other negative stats...with Eli, for some reason, it doesn't seem to sting him and the team as badly in the bigger situations than others., No-one' going to say that Eli is a better QB than Favre....then again, whose liabilities are more costly? I think that's a bit more complex a question....but perhaps ultimately as inconsequential as who's 'better'.

Hard to say, as such a thing is almost impossible to measure. I'd say a good way to look at it is overall success. Their win/loss record is only four games apart (Favre 74, Manning 70). Playoffs on the other hand are more telling. Favre by the same point in his career as Manning had won 9 playoff games, a Super Bowl and 2 NFC championships. Manning, has not won a playoff game before or since his Super Bowl run, making his total 4 playoff wins, 1 NFC Championship and 1 Super Bowl. So Favre has has double the post season success. Read into that how you'd like.

Any way you look at it, Eli's a legitimate franchise/starter, not as journeyman. I think Flacco could end up being a current-day Vinny Tesaverde, though.

Eli is a legitimate starter provided someone better does not come along. Look at the Tom Brady/Matt Cassel situation. Was there ever a doubt in anyone's mind that Brady would be the starter the following season? Eli on the other, if he were injured for the year in the first game of the season and a younger and CHEAPER QB came in and put up comparable numbers to Eli, Eli would be gone the next season.

 

[KalMart]

Hard to say, as such a thing is almost impossible to measure. I'd say a good way to look at it is overall success. Their win/loss record is only four games apart (Favre 74, Manning 70). Playoffs on the other hand are more telling. Favre by the same point in his career as Manning had won 9 playoff games, a Super Bowl and 2 NFC championships. Manning, has not won a playoff game before or since his Super Bowl run, making his total 4 playoff wins, 1 NFC Championship and 1 Super Bowl. So Favre has has double the post season success. Read into that how you'd like.

You could also say that in that one year, he had a tougher hill to climb than all of Favre's playoff games combined...but yeah there's tit-for-tat when it comes to that. Favre will always be seen as a higher all-time such-and-such...as will Marino or Stauback or whoever for whichever reasons.

The bigger question is whether you can win with him...does he strike you as the kind of quarterback that will get you more wins than cost you them...in bigger situations? I thinks it's a clear yes...and one without excuses. I think being Peyton's brother adds an unfair comparison.

Eli is a legitimate starter provided someone better does not come along. Look at the Tom Brady/Matt Cassel situation. Was there ever a doubt in anyone's mind that Brady would be the starter the following season? Eli on the other, if he were injured for the year in the first game of the season and a younger and CHEAPER QB came in and put up comparable numbers to Eli, Eli would be gone the next season.

If someone 'better' was to come along, it would more likely have to be a chancy longer-term committal...someone who will turn out better, so to speak. Can't really see the 'better' situation unless A) he's getting old, or B) like you mentioned a major injury....but it would have to be more debilitating than just a season...Eli's earned the right to have his job after a single-season break for sure. You can't really see a Brady-for-Bledscoe situation unless the 'replacement' goes out and wins the Superbowl for you. Otherwise, there won't even be a question. He's certainly not going to be replaced outright by, say, a Favre with NYJ or MIN, or a Warner with ARZ at this point. Granted, you could probably say that for other established QB's too, some who may rank even lower.

But clearly, he's a vital reason for success the team will experience, moreso than their weaknesses....there's no reason right now to go in a 'different direction' with your QB. All i all, 'is he one of the elite' is probably not a question that should be asked with him. But he is Peyton's brother, and being in NY does draw a microscope.

 

[Immortalfire]

Atlanta's defense is not even trying. Either that, or NO receivers have Nightcrawler-esque teleport abilities to be wherever Drew throws.

 

[Donut]

It looks like I am heading into 13 points in Pick'em for this week

 

[SpideyInATree]

They've intercepted Brees twice. The offense just hasn't been able to capitalize on the turnovers.

 

[steintym]

It is more the front office's fault than Haine's.

True ... in the big picture. Hanie took a 7-3 record and flushed a season.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Meh, I'm only watching this game for Dan's record.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Everytime the Falcons get any bit of head way the Saints find a way to stuff them back down, heh. They need some big plays quick to get back into it.

 

[Dr. Evil]

It'll be an interesting race for MVP between Brees and Rodgers.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Wow, Falcons had a shot to maybe turn this into a game and then just put the nail in the coffin with Jones coughing up the ball like that.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Brees broke the record. Took the announcer like five tries to announce it to the crowd even though they pretty much knew.

 

[Mister J]

I never wanted to see Danny's record fall, but Brees is easy to root for. I'm happy for him.

 

[Poeman]

Congrats to Brees...Without a doubt Mr. Elite.

He could win MVP now...How about that if Rodgers after all this doesnt win the MVP.

Brees deserves it....Bet the Dolphins franchise regrets to this day not signing him and going with Daunte Caulpepper instead lol. He ends up beating a Dolphin record

 

[Hunter Rider]

Congrats to Breeze. Is there any other players this season who may cross the landmark?

 

[SpideyInATree]

The New Orleans crowd was chanting MVP there for a bit. And it's definitely crazy seeing a huge record like that beaten. Brees definitely deserves it and the way that offense is playing they really have a shot to go to the Superbowl again this year.

Because...no offense...that Green Bay defense has been showing some cracks the last few weeks.

 

[Kane52630]

New York Jets (8-7)
Would clinch the No. 6 seed with a win and a Bengals loss and Titans loss and either/both a Raiders loss and/or Broncos loss due to conference record (7-5 vs. the Bengals’ 6-6).
Next: at MIA (Jan. 1)

F***.