2013/2014 NFL Thread: Attack of the Matts

[Erzengel]

Well it's the same argument with Romo. Would a better defense help him out? Of course but it's on the spotlight games that you have to step up. Rodgers has no OL, and still does well. Brady makes unknown receivers household names. The Colts without Manning pre Luck became the first pick in the draft.

Against the 49ers, again an interception and a fumble in the 2nd half instead of pulling away with points.

Against the Giants in the 2011 playoffs, two 4th and inches plays that he couldn't get the 1st down. They also had four 4 and outs.

Against the Packers in the 2010 playoffs, yes the Packers lit up the team but it was 14-14 with 6 minutes left in the 2nd. Next drive by the Falcons, interception in the Packers end zone, they march down the field and score. 21-14. Next drive by the Falcons, interception for a score. 28-14.

Would a better defense of helped him, probably, but he wasn't helping his team when he needed to either.

Again, he's a great QB, but fair or unfair, they are judged on how they do on huge stages and Ryan hasn't exactly impressed in the postseason. They can't settle for just making the Playoffs this year.

 

[Erzengel]

And am I arguing semantics? Rodgers is the best QB/elite in the league right now imo, but if he were to retire today, I'm not sure if he'd be a first ballot HOFer yet. Not that he won't be just....saying with only 5 years under his belt.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I would argue Romo had a better defense supporting him. Ryan never had a player like DeMarcus Ware on the other side of the ball.

Matt Ryan also never had a totally embarrassing play like this to single handedly lose a playoff game:

[YT]QVuQ5aw0HAQ[/YT]

Matt Ryan also hasn't been an NFL starting QB since 2006.

Tony Romo also never got his team to the conference championship.

I mean... no credit to the 49ers for getting their act together and stopping that offense? It's not like that was an anomaly... the 49ers did the same exact thing 2 weeks later to the Baltimore Ravens.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

And am I arguing semantics? Rodgers is the best QB/elite in the league right now imo, but if he were to retire today, I'm not sure if he'd be a first ballot HOFer yet. Not that he won't be just....saying with only 5 years under his belt.

Rodgers doesn't have the accomplishments at the moment to be a first ballot, no, because he hasn't been around long enough.

He will get them tho. Even if he never wins another ring, if he remains consistent over his career, he'll be an easy hall of famer.

 

[Erzengel]

Ryan is 2008 and Romo is 2006. When can you start with the criticisms of Ryan? Romo also plays for a more Marquee team than Ryan does, everything he does is magnified.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Ryan is 2008 and Romo is 2006. When can you start with the criticisms of Ryan? Romo also plays for a more Marquee team than Ryan does, everything he does is magnified.

I'm not saying he's above criticism. But this is a problem I have with football analysis in general.

Everything - good or bad - is pinned on the QB 100%.

The Falcons fall short of a championship? Well it's all Matt Ryan's fault. No looking at how the Falcons have a far short of championship caliber defense. It's all on Matt Ryan and what he can and can't do, despite the fact that he is nowhere near the #1 reason why the Falcons lost.

Romo, while you're correct, plays on a more marquee team, is also far more responsible for Dallas' post-season woes than Matt Ryan is. That single botched snap was far more detrimental than anything Matt Ryan has done.

Yea, he didn't finish off that last drive... because one of the best defenses in the game today finally stepped up and made a play. Matt Ryan didn't really make a mistake on that drive when the game was on the line. The defense stepped up.

Colin Kaepernick choked away the Super Bowl far more than Matt Ryan choked away the NFC Championship game.

On the flip side, I think guys like Flacco and Eli are far -less- responsible for their team's success than the "OMG THEY ARE ELITE" credit that they get for riding the wave of momentum of great defenses. Eli and Flacco were busy getting bailed out of "hope and a prayer" plays, and those defenses stepped up when the game was on the line and made game winning stops. Something that Matt Ryan hasn't had anything close to a semblance of. No credit to the New York or Baltimore defenses for those 3 Super Bowl championships, it all goes to Eli and Flacco, who are now "elite" because the 11 guys on the OTHER side of the ball stepped up...

You give Matt Ryan a defense like Eli or Flacco had, and I guarantee he has far more success than either of those guys.

 

[Erzengel]

It doesn't have to be on the last drive. While if it does happen on the last drive, it's definitely magnified. That interception and fumble in the 2nd quarter were 2 opportunities to take the lead.

And it's the name of the game, QBs get too much credit and too much blame.

And I've discussed Eli before, I know you don't agree, but Eli kept that team afloat. 31st ranked defense and 26th ranked offense. It was Eli throwing for almost 5,000 yards in the regular season. It was Eli who threw for 106 for 163 (65%), 1,219 Yards (NFL Postseason Record), 9 TDs and 1 INT during the postseason. That's stepping up on the big stage.

Flacco, if I remember correctly had only 2 really good games in his first four years in playing in the post season. One of them being the AFC Championship against the Patriots where the receiver should have caught that ball. But, he stepped it up in the 2012 post season, 11 TDs no INTs in all 4 games?

The Giants defense picked up in the postseason but it's not like Eli was along for the ride. The Ravens defense have been consistent but they still needed to score points. Eli and Flacco don't deserve to be in the same category as Dilfer or Johnson.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I never said they were Dilfer or Johnson. But they are far from "elite".

And not along for the ride? The Giants scored 20 points in the NFC Championship, and half of those were gifted to him by Kyle Williams, including the 3 game winning points.

That Super Bowl, the Giants scored 21 points, 2 of which came off a safety. he had the one nice throw to Manningham along the sideline, and benefited largely from that crucial drop by Wes Welker. Eli has had some pretty mundane performances, and some exceptional luck and a wicked pass rush on the way to 2 Super Bowls.

Joe Flacco is the epitome of having some exceptional luck. The Ravens Super Bowl run was built largely off of Joe Flacco chuck-n-prays, aided by Anquan Boldin and Jacoby Jones bailing him out while the Broncos and 49ers defenses stumbled all over themselves, as well as some ref benefits mixed in as well.

Yea the #'s might look good for either of those guys. But I'm looking at -HOW- those #'s happened, and they didn't happen in "elite" fashion.

Eli and Flacco might be far and away better than Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson, but they are nowhere near "elite".

In today's NFL, I would take Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Matt Ryan, Colin Kaepernick, RGIII, or Russell Wilson before I even started looking at Eli and Flacco.

And even once I get those guys named above, I'd probably still take a guy like Roethlisberger over Eli or Flacco. Though admittedly not by much at all.

 

[Erzengel]

So...those 3 TDs against the Falcons and 3 TDs against the Packers as along for the ride?

You saw the beating Eli took against the 49ers and he still didn't turn the ball over.

Manningham may have got him to the 50 yard line, but he still marched them down to the end zone albeit being let in for the final play.

I grown to detest the word elite. I don't care if Eli is considered elite or not, but he gets the job done and I think most football fans would be happy for a QB who gets it done in the clutch.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Tell that to 49ers fans who would rather lose with Colin Kaepernick than to win with Alex Smith.

 

[Erzengel]

Well Alex Smith was more of a be conservative and don't turn the ball over, as compared to getting the job done. I do think that offense was fashioned to work in spite of him and not because of him.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Well Alex Smith was more of a be conservative and don't turn the ball over, as compared to getting the job done. I do think that offense was fashioned to work in spite of him and not because of him.

While I don't want to overhype the contributions of Alex Smith... he did carry that team in the post season against New Orleans, and during the season and a half that he was the starter, there were many instances where he carried that offense and that team, including the 21 point comeback against the Eagles, beating the Packers in Lambeau, and the 4th down comeback against the Lions in the Handshake Bowl.

 

[Erzengel]

As a #1 draft pick, did he pan out for the 49ers?

 

[the last son]

No. You shouldn't have to wait that many years just to get a QB to be a glorified game manager.

 

[TheBat812]

Yes. Yes they did. He played for a constantly rotating coaching staff with weak players until they finally got their **** together and then he led them to the NFC championship which they lost to two horrific special teams turnovers. Then he proceeded to be one of the most proficient qbs in the league until he was replaced by an even better athlete. Obviously their solid d and new team philosophy had a humongous role in the 49ers transformation, but he over he'd had the talent all along, he just needed a good coach and solid players surrounding him. As does every qb.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

He didn't live up to #1 draft expectations, no.

But that wasn't all his fault, and TheBat812 pretty much summed it up.

But no... he didn't bring #1 overall pick success.

But on the flip side, to respond to the_last_son - a game manager doesn't do what Alex Smith did to New Orleans. 2 80+ yard game winning drives in under 3:00?

 

[DoomsdayApex]

So how does Ryan deserve a fifth spot in the rankings if he's not taking full advantage of his receivers?

QBs like Rodgers, Mannings, Brady, Brees make their 3rd and 4th round receivers look good. What's Ryan's excuse with his HOF TE, his 1st round WRers, and now Steven Jackson?

I'm not fond of these rankings based on "future forecasting". I'd rank Ryan in the Top 10 but he needs to do a little bit more in the playoffs.

Well, if I were to force them to rank this specific group of QBs in a Top 5...

In reality, I don't rank Ryan in the Top 10. Keep in mind, prior to The Falcons drafting Julio Jones, Matty Ice didn't throw an accurate deep ball.

Thats...Disturbingt:

Not as creepy as this.

 

[Erzengel]

He didn't live up to #1 draft expectations, no.

But that wasn't all his fault, and TheBat812 pretty much summed it up.

But no... he didn't bring #1 overall pick success.

But on the flip side, to respond to the_last_son - a game manager doesn't do what Alex Smith did to New Orleans. 2 80+ yard game winning drives in under 3:00?

Well the Saints defense was/is atrocious.

But the way you seem to say that Eli and Flacco were along for the ride, you would say that would go double for Smith.

 

[WalkingDeadMike]

Official picks:

* = earns 1st rd bye

AFC North - Bengals
AFC East - Pats
AFC West - Broncos *
AFC South - Texans *
AFC WC - Ravens
AFC WC - Chiefs

NFC North - Packers *
NFC East - Cowboys
NFC West - 49ers
NFC South - Falcons *
NFC WC - Saints
NFC WC - Seahawks

SB - Patriots over Falcons

 

[Genesis 1.0]

I love the continuous hatred for Flacco, no matter what he does he continues to get flack from nearly everyone not named Ron Jaworski. Just makes me love the guy more and it unites the team; Us Against the World worked well for us last season.

 

[Wheels]

I love the continuous hatred for Flacco, no matter what he does he continues to get flack from nearly everyone not named Ron Jaworski. Just makes me love the guy more and it unites the team; Us Against the World worked well for us last season.

Yeah, I don't get it either. I can understand why people hate my QB though.

 

[Mr. Dent]

And...

WELCOME BACK FOOTBALL

 

[Erzengel]

Wtf is Ryan Seacrest doing there? Does he even know what a football is?

 

[Wheels]

Wtf is Ryan Seacrest doing there? Does he even know what a football is?

He likes the pretty uniforms.

 

[Mr. Dent]

I hate these lightning delays.