9.14 - Persuasion - Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[dru-zod2501]

Its all about intentions. Is Clark intention to hurt people by burning down a building so the debris might damage people? no that is not Clarks intention, that is a terrorist intention. His whole point of doing this was to make sure that he keeps his powers so Zod won't get his and enslaves the world. What makes you think that he didn't know the building was empty or that he didn't check and see that no one will get hurt?

I can see why AgentPat might be upset about it, the comparision is there to 9/11, but to say that a real superman doesn't destroy building for a better cause, well thats stretching it. Superman does have an angry side...

i'm well aware of what Clark's intentions were, which is why I said it could be construed (or better yet, misconstrued is the word) as an act of terror. Did the reporters standing under the building, or the average Joe the Plumber walking around Metropolis, know the towers were going to be used in the future as tools of destruction? no, Clark just scared the bejeezus out of everyone. And if anyone could find any evidence that the Blur sabotaged the towers (probably they won't, but if they did) that's a great propaganda piece for all of Clark's enemies to turn the masses.

You don't have to agree with my analysis of the act, or the damage it might've caused, but I'm just saying it was one of the most egregious entries in a long list of "Clark's not smartest moments"

 

[rowan sjet]

To play Devil's advocate for Clark, not destroying the towers = Zod's army conquering earth and Clark powerless to stop it.

True, but there were much safer ways of dealing with the towers than blowing them up and watching where the pieces fall.

In a way, this is similar to Echo where Clark *****slapped that poor hostage (and oh look, I gave the episodes the same low grades).

 

[Mikelus]

Now Clark has just committed what could easily be construed as an act of terrorism, and he's getting another free pass.

Again, it wasn't terrorism, is just demagogical to pretend otherwise.

In November 2004, a United Nations Secretary General report described terrorism as any act "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

 

[KBX]

i'm well aware of what Clark's intentions were, which is why I said it could be construed (or better yet, misconstrued is the word) as an act of terror. Did the reporters standing under the building, or the average Joe the Plumber walking around Metropolis, know the towers were going to be used in the future as tools of destruction? no, Clark just scared the bejeezus out of everyone. And if anyone could find any evidence that the Blur sabotaged the towers (probably they won't, but if they did) that's a great propaganda piece for all of Clark's enemies to turn the masses.

You don't have to agree with my analysis of the act, or the damage it might've caused, but I'm just saying it was one of the most egregious entries in a long list of "Clark's not smartest moments"

To make myself clear, I found Clark putting his hand on Tess's throat while lifting her through the air in a previous episode far worse than this moment, barring any similiarities to 9/11.

No, Joe the Plumber will not know about this, but how is that different from any other catastrophic event that has happened in any tv show or Superman comic? I do hope that Waller does use this against him, that Superheroes in spandex are not good people, that is good storytelling. Does the end justify the means. Does destorying a tower that will be used to enslave humanity justify Joe the plummer getting scared? I would have to say yes, but thats just my opinion.

 

[Mikelus]

True, but there were much safer ways of dealing with the towers than blowing them up and watching where the pieces fall.

In a way, this is similar to Echo where Clark *****slapped that poor hostage (and oh look, I gave the episodes the same low grades).

Have you read the comics? Superman is not a saint, he's not perfect. Is just ridiculous how some nitpick the character for any little thing.

 

[Serene]

To make myself clear, I found Clark putting his hand on Tess's throat while lifting her through the air in a previous episode far worse than this moment, barring any similiarities to 9/11.

I hated that too.

I don't believe I have to justify myself as a fan of the show just because I think they occasionally make bad choices. Of course, Clark isn't a terrorist , but I do think the decision to present that visual of twin towers in a large city being brought down by fireballs was not the most thoughtful of choices that could have been made.

It's not the first thing I haven't liked on the show, and I'm sure it won't be the last.

 

[triplet]

That is where you lose me. The 9-11 connection didn't strike me (though now I can understand the opposition), but the real Superman would've absolutely been thinking about to go about doing this safely. Did Clark really think raining down fiery debris in an uncontrolled, unscheduled, unanounced demolition was the best option available to him?!. This is a city where human civilization once collapsed in the space of a few hours because Brainiac shut off the electricity!

Now Clark has just committed what could easily be construed as an act of terrorism, and he's getting another free pass.

yet another reminder why I'm not watching this show anymore; this "superman" isn't even remotely up to standard

Maybe I should have qualified my statement to say something like: In the comics, wouldn't he have destroyed the building without really thinking about it (after making sure no one was in harm's way first, of course)?

But I had said I don't think that there's anyway that he would have endangered anyone. He's not going to kill or hurt innocents...

And I don't think it qualifies as a terrorist attack, although he probably went too far.

Certainly, it will be something that will get him more on Amanda Waller's radar, especially if someone saw him near the scene afterwards. It will definitely get him some unwanted attention.

It'll be interesting to see what the consequences of that will be.

 

[Webhead2006]

well hopefully in episode 15 they will make a refrence to the towers and no one was hurt and all that.

 

[KBX]

I hated that too.

I don't believe I have to justify myself as a fan of the show just because I think they occasionally make bad choices. Of course, Clark isn't a terrorist , but I do think the decision to present that visual of twin towers in a large city being brought down by fireballs was not the most thoughtful of choices that could have been made.

It's not the first thing I haven't liked on the show, and I'm sure it won't be the last.

Tess has stated to Clark she has been abused from her father as a child. She also views Clark as a "savior" or some "God" complex. She didn't mind that Clark put her hand on her because she got confirmation that Clark is indeed Kal-El. Not the best of messages to send to your viewers.

My arguement wasn't about wether it was a terrorist act or not, or wether Clark choice was poor or not, there is really no right or wrong answer, people can argue about this forever. The future Superman decision was a quick one that was done with good intentions.

 

[ariellem]

I thought it was a pretty good episode. Certainly more enjoyable to watch than the one that followed (see 9.15 thread for those comments).

I was shocked when Clark destroyed the towers, mostly because I didn't expect he'd ever do it - I thought Chloe or Chloe + Ollie or Chloe + Ollie + Impulse + Cyborg would take it upon themselves when Clark wouldn't. But he finally realized that if they came online, he would LOSE his own powers, which would be a pretty big problem.

Found the Stepford Lois scenes funny and embarrassing but they did it well - when she makes the effort, she can doll herself up and look great (and we know she loves costumes), but she still _can_ _not_ _cook_. Enjoyed seeing Stoner Emil. Liked that the Valentine's fairy wasn't actually magical and purposely casting spells on people - knew that the dust did something, but she hadn't made it and wasn't directing traffic, so to speak. That was a nice twist. Found the wedding dress scenes to be in character for Lois. I felt a little bad for Martha that her dress wasn't still pristine but hoped she'd show up at some point. Fire eyes on Tess were great - I was actually scared for her safety.

Am waiting for a future ep in which Clark ends up in a liplock with Tess - Zatanna spell (Z is jealous about Lois) or Myx involvement or more of that fairy dust. Clark has shown that he can pull away from Z's kiss even when enchanted, so it might need to be with one of them in disguise. Why? Because it would be entertaining to see the aftermath. Ollie would be jealous, because he still feels something for Tess (I think). Tess would have kissed her god, so to speak - and how do mortals react to that? Put themselves on a pedestal or go downhill from there because nothing could top that?

 

[Brainiac 8]

I decided I would go ahead and say my part about this episode, since it seemed to have had quite a few discussions going on around the web..but I'll keep it simple.

I enjoyed the episode, and I applaud that Clark took action. Was it drastic? Yea. Was it needed? Heck yes, since if the tower went online, worse would have happened. Was it irrisponsible? Possibly, just since they didn't show if Clark made sure noone was around first, other than the reporters and Zod.

As far as 9/11 imagery..I could see and understand why it would upset some people. Did it upset me...no not really. It was done for the special effects and ooh factor, and I'm ok with that. Maybe they could have changed the scene a bit to be sensative to those who were effected by the twin towers collapse, and I'm surprised they didn't. But all in all, movies/comics and such do silly things like this for the special effects and explosions all the time, and I usually let these things slide as such. Heck the action genre of writing was built on blowing stuff up where anyone in the surrounding area wouldn't survive it.

Someone probably should have noticed the imagery and mentioned it to the ptb, due to the sensativity issue.

As a whole though, I enjoyed it and loved seeing Clark take a bit more dangerous route in order to prevent a much worse tragedy from happening.

 

[Webhead2006]

Well maybe we can find out why they did it and their thoughts one of these days. Or if any one has asked the writers on twitter page maybe they would give an answer there.

 

[triplet]

See my review here:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/persuasionreview.htm

My thoughts on the whole 9/11 thing?

Here:

As for the darker side of this episode, I'll admit that Clark's burning down the towers was a bit on the drastic side, and was upsetting to some people online especially in light of the similarities to what happened on 9/11. However, I think that any connection between what Clark did and what happened to New York's World Trade Center was probably an inadvertent, and thus an unfortunate, plot point, which probably wasn't helped by the way the Special Visual Effects were designed.

If they were going to have him burn down the towers, they should have avoided having them collapse the way they did. That reminded me of that day. We've all seen the video of New York's towers collapsing; we've all shared in the horror of watching them fall into themselves, even if we weren't watching the events unfold live. How that shot was designed was not the best choice...

And I don't think that there's anyway Clark would have done a thing to that building before ensuring everyone nearby was safe from harm. Clark is no killer, no matter what he almost did to Tess.

 

[Webhead2006]

nice to see the review finally trip. Another good review as always. And nice to see what your thoughts were on that whole 9/11 deal some folks had with the burning of the solar towers.

 

[SV Fan]

nice to see the review finally trip. Another good review as always. And nice to see what your thoughts were on that whole 9/11 deal some folks had with the burning of the solar towers.

I think what was worse then the similarities to 9-11 was people obviously going out of the way to use it as a reason to complain about the show

 

[Webhead2006]

oh totally.

 

[rowan sjet]

Well yes, of course there are, but that doesn't mean it isn't a reasonable criticism for someone who just watches the show to make.

And I don't think that there's anyway Clark would have done a thing to that building before ensuring everyone nearby was safe from harm. Clark is no killer, no matter what he almost did to Tess.

But he can make mistakes, like knocking that innocent man into a coma in Echo because he didn't properly assess the situation. I'm glad it turned out that nothing bad actually happened, but that also didn't seem all that realistic given the nature of the destruction.

Anyway, great review Trip, as usual.

 

[SV Fan]

Well yes, of course there are, but that doesn't mean it isn't a reasonable criticism for someone who just watches the show to make.

I agree there are people who legitimently had concern with how the scene played out and I respect that but when people turned there attention and used it as a reason to bash the writers or a character on the show instead of pointing ou the problems in general with the scene it came off in very bad taste.

 

[ironman29758]

I agreed with everything you said trip keep up the good work

 

[triplet]

nice to see the review finally trip. Another good review as always. And nice to see what your thoughts were on that whole 9/11 deal some folks had with the burning of the solar towers.

Thanks.

I think what was worse then the similarities to 9-11 was people obviously going out of the way to use it as a reason to complain about the show

Yeah, true enough.

But he can make mistakes, like knocking that innocent man into a coma in Echo because he didn't properly assess the situation. I'm glad it turned out that nothing bad actually happened, but that also didn't seem all that realistic given the nature of the destruction.

Well, I'd like to think he had made sure there had been no one in danger before he did a thing, but it would have been nice if they'd spelled that out, either in Persuasion or in Conspiracy, since there were so many references to the incident in that episode.

Anyway, great review Trip, as usual.

Thanks.

I agreed with everything you said trip keep up the good work

Thank you, I will.

Now I got to work on Conspiracy, it won't be as much like pulling teeth I don't think, although I'm not all that happy with a lot of the diretorial choices that Turi Meyer had made...

 

[SuperDaniel]

Fastest review ever:

This episode sucked. PERIOD.

 

[Webhead2006]

wow daniel lol. i didnt think it was that bad of an episode. for me personally i havent out right hated an episode this season. And this is the longest streak for a season for me. By this time in past seasons to me personally there has been like 2-3 real stinkers.