A Batman Begins question?

[Warhammer]

Ok guys. This one of these threads again. This time, it's about Batman Begins.
I remember a while ago in the BB forum, somebody posted what Ra's Al Ghul meant by the line, "Like your father, you lacked to courage to do what was necessary" during the scene when Ra's and the League of Shadows burn Wayne Manor.

This poster also showed the outline of why Ra's Al Ghul was NOT "indirectly responsible" for the death of Wayne's parents. The sad thing is, I forgot what this poster wrote. I searched in the Batman Begins forums and I couldn't find it.

So my question is:

What did Ra's Al Ghul mean when he said, "Like your father, you (Bruce) lacked the courage to do what was necessary"?

 

[Warhammer]

Mods dont move this to the BB forum.
I'll never get an answer there.

 

[jimmylace]

hmmm Im probably not the best person to answer this but I think it was to do with the fact that in Ras Al Ghuls opinion Bruces father *trying to save gotham* was "killed by his own actions"/futile to do so

i.e trying to save/help poor desperate people. "poor desperate people ARE AND ALWAYS WILL be criminals" i.e no point sympathising with them. joe cool shot bruces father dead after all, why help those kinds of people?"

Ghul is basically a republican!

 

[CConn]

hmmm Im probably not the best person to answer this but I think it was to do with the fact that in Ras Al Ghuls opinion Bruces father *trying to save gotham* was "killed by his own actions"/futile to do so

i.e trying to save/help poor desperate people. "poor desperate people ARE AND ALWAYS WILL be criminals" i.e no point sympathising with them. joe cool shot bruces father dead after all, why help those kinds of people?"

Ghul is basically a republican!

I don't know about that.

Ra's never seemed to have any concern for people's economic status - in either BB or the comics. I mean, yeah, sure, he tried to sack Gotham by crippling its economy, but he never seemed to say anything close to "Poor = Criminal".

 

[Gonking]

Dude, there is a whole subforum about this...

 

[jimmylace]

I don't know about that.

Ra's never seemed to have any concern for people's economic status - in either BB or the comics. I mean, yeah, sure, he tried to sack Gotham by crippling its economy, but he never seemed to say anything close to "Poor = Criminal".

I didnt mean Ra's was saying "poor=criminal" so directly, I didnt articulate my answer very well though, so fair play.

What I kinda meant is that Ra's was more like "You fathers an idiot. you wanna save gotham? youre not going to change things by throwing money at them, or by beating them up one by one in a bat costume. you take REAL action like I'm doing- burn the ****ers to the ground."

 

[The Kid]

I took it to mean his father didn't fight the man with the gun and therefore his attempt to be reasonable with the thug caused him and his wife to get shot.

Edit: Yeah it's definitely about his willingness to kill. Bruce's father was a doctor and a philanthropist so in a way I guess he didn't have the same ideals as ra's.

 

[Warhammer]

Dude, there is a whole subforum about this...

Mods dont move this to the BB forum.
I'll never get an answer there.

 

[Grim Goblin]

I don't know about that.

Ra's never seemed to have any concern for people's economic status - in either BB or the comics. I mean, yeah, sure, he tried to sack Gotham by crippling its economy, but he never seemed to say anything close to "Poor = Criminal".

How about when he says: "Create enough hunger and everyone becomes a criminal!"

 

[cryptic name]

How about when he says: "Create enough hunger and everyone becomes a criminal!"

that's more about desperation. if you're starving to death, you're going to steal food.

 

[Grim Goblin]

that's more about desperation. if you're starving to death, you're going to steal food.

well, if you're starving to death you're not exactly rich now are you?

 

[Excel]

in ras mind, whats nessecary is killing every single criminal which wayne wouldnt do.

 

[Warhammer]

But what would that have to do with his father not doing what was necessary?

I always thought that Ra's was talking about how Thomas Wayne let other people run his business instead of him with all of his power, doing everything he could possibly do to help Gotham.

I may be wrong....

 

[Matt]

During their training scene on the ice, Ra's tells Bruce that his father should've attacked when the gunman hesitated. That is what he meant.

 

[CConn]

I didnt mean Ra's was saying "poor=criminal" so directly, I didnt articulate my answer very well though, so fair play.

What I kinda meant is that Ra's was more like "You fathers an idiot. you wanna save gotham? youre not going to change things by throwing money at them, or by beating them up one by one in a bat costume. you take REAL action like I'm doing- burn the ****ers to the ground."

Ah, okay. Yeah, I agree with that. He was basically saying to make things change, you have to be brutal and ruthless.

How about when he says: "Create enough hunger and everyone becomes a criminal!"

You did get me there. Although I would argue that line is more about desperation and - as I said - ruthlessness.

Basically, Matt's right; Ra's believes Thomas should've attacked the robber, Batman should kill, etc., etc. That's always been very much a part of Ra's ideology.

 

[cryptic name]

well, if you're starving to death you're not exactly rich now are you?

but there are people below the poverty line that are not starving. they're not thriving, but they're not on the verge of death either. so there is a difference between "everyone who is poor is a criminal" and "if you're desperate enough, you'll resort to crime"

 

[Warhammer]

Thanks Matt, CConn, and others.