The Dark Knight About Batman's decision...

[frodawgg]

I've been thinking about this for awhile, which shows I have too much time on my hands if I'm analyzing movies t:. If something like this has already been proposed, please forgive me, as I have not come across it.

A lot of people have questioned--and, in some cases, judged--Batman's decision to take the fall for Harvey, especially when he could have just put it on the Joker. I think most people agree that it's understood why he didn't want Harvey to be exposed, as to not taint who he was and his mission.

However, many have said that it doesn't make sense for Batman to take blame for Harvey's actions and be hunted down for it. Many people agree that he could have just placed that blame on the Joker, which the people of Gotham would have probably bought and that would be it. Also, what's a few more bodies to add to his resume?

I may be way off, but I don't think I am, knowing the character of Batman the way I do. Batman has ethics. He probably knew that it would be easy to pin it on the Joker, but also knew that wasn't the right thing to. Despite all the horrendous and evil things Joker had already done, he did NOT commit these murders--Harvey did. Of course, one has to be accountable for his own actions, but--and I think Batman saw it this way--they should not be accountable for something they did not do. Therefore, Batman's ethical values steered him clear of doing so. So, the only way to keep Harvey's name and legacy clean (which, in itself, could be a debatable topic), Batman had to assume responsibility himself so that no one else would be wrongly and unjustly accused.

Who else has looked at it this way?

 

[Brother Jack]

That is part of it, yes. I think a lot of people who criticize the ending of the film forget that Batman, and by extension Bruce, was the real harbinger of everything that went down in the movie. With that, Batman felt (somewhat correctly) responsible for what had happened, so him taking on Two-Face's crimes was him owning that and shouldering the consequences.

 

[Travesty]

^So should he do the same for the killings from The Joker, Scarecrow, Ras, etc?

 

[Brother Jack]

^So should he do the same for the killings from The Joker, Scarecrow, Ras, etc?

The situation was different with all of those characters. Taking the fall at the end was a way to own up to the escalation as a whole that Batman inadvertently brought, and you could rope in Scarecrow and Ra's into that along with Joker and Two-Face.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Batman was as big if not bigger hero for this city and role model who inspired others and kids loved him too. By making himself a sudden murderer he destroys that symbol and does exactly what he didnt want to do by exposing Dent's insanity. While I see why they didnt want to reveal Dent's insanity (although taking the circumstances into consideration, it couldve been explained shock or brain damage after the VERY recent accident), the blame could have been put on just about any one of Joker's people in Batman's outfit, and that would save all of Gotham's symbols - both the white and the dark knight. People were already aware that others can and do dress up as Batman, mainly thanks to the guy on TV who got killed by Joker. I think its much easier to buy that some psycho or someone related to Joker dressed up as Batman to get close to Gordon's family and tried to kill them and killed Dent than believing that Batman, who just few minutes earlier kicked the crap out of the SWAT team to save the hostages and who just captured Joker and who just cooperated with Gordon suddenly turned into psycho who killed Dent and tried to kill Gordon. Many cops and SWAT guys would wonder why he didn't kill Gordon when he was right next to him just a short a moment ago, why he captured Joker, why he saved the hostages, how come Gordon received the phone call and left while Batman was inside the building watched by SWAT (and theres a shot of one of the SWAT guys listening to Gordon talking on the phone, while Batman is still in the building, and while he says Harvey)- the questions keep popping and it doesn't add up

 

[Fudgie]

******

 

[Fudgie]

Batman wasn't a bigger symbol of hope than Dent. No way hosay. Batman even told Dent he was the symbol of hope than Batman can never be. The Mayor wasn't on the news talkin' about arresting Harvey Dent on site like he was with Batman. Gotham was divided on Batman, and they turned on him even more when Joker was killing people in his name.

How are they gonna blame some psycho dressed as Batman on all the killings? Didn't have to be Batman to get at Mrs Gordon, or Wurtz, or anyone else as Dent so clearly proved. Just like all them copycats were able to get at the Chechen and Scarecrow earlier in the movie. How many psychos have a Bat-Pod like Batman's like they all saw him escape on from the scene of the crime? Wake up and smell the coffee. They couldnt sweep it off on some phantom culprit. Someone had to own up to all those murders of cops and high profile mobsters, or they had to have a body of a culprit to pin it on.

Oh yeah and we only ever saw two kids like Batman. in these flicks. Narrows kid and Gordon's kid.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Batman and Gordon could've simply told the arriving police that Harvey fell while trying to rescue Gordon's kid from a masked criminal who escaped.

If you're going to lie at least don't incriminate yourself.

But Nolan wanted a memorable ending so he made Batman a fugitive.

 

[The Joker]

Both Batman and Gordon together let a masked criminal escape, and also managed to let Harvey die, too? LOL!

 

[The Demon's Head]

I wonder if the general assumption is that Batman murdered Dent as well, or just the five cops that Two-Face killed.

 

[Motown Marvel]

so if a formerly good person goes on a merciless killing spree batman has no problem lying to take the wrap, which makes his job to save gotham infinitely more difficult, which is bad for gotham itself.

cool. sounds ethical.

good thing harvey got killed....other wise things would have got REALLY awkward.

 

[The Joker]

so if a formerly good person goes on a merciless killing spree batman has no problem lying to take the wrap, which makes his job to save gotham infinitely more difficult, which is bad for gotham itself.

This wasn't some Nun who went nuts and shot up a few people. The formerly good person you speak of was the symbol of hope for Gotham. He also put away half of the city's criminals.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Both Batman and Gordon together let a masked criminal escape, and also managed to let Harvey die, too? LOL!

So instead Gordon points to Batman and says, "he did it".

Genius!

 

[The Joker]

So instead Gordon points to Batman and says, "he did it".

Genius!

Yes, it is genius, because you've got a culprit admitting to it, and the Commissioner backing it up. Gotham's hope stays preserved, and Harvey's work isn't undone.

Batman being a fugitive ain't going to make a blind bit of difference to his mission. It didn't stop him from helping Gotham when Commissioner Loeb was in charge and wanted him taken down. It won't stop him now either.

 

[Motown Marvel]

This wasn't some Nun who went nuts and shot up a few people. The formerly good person you speak of was the symbol of hope for Gotham. He also put away half of the city's criminals.

yeah i saw the movie.

Batman being a fugitive ain't going to make a blind bit of difference to his mission. It didn't stop him from helping Gotham when Commissioner Loeb was in charge and wanted him taken down. It won't stop him now either.

instead, there is a masked killer out there who has not only killed gothams "white knight" and hope for the city, but also proved the cops to be completely incompetent at their job. im sure the city feels real safe now. god forbid batman and gordon have a little faith in the perseverance of gothams citizens (which they touted through out the whole movie) and let them have a hero in batman in absence of harvey.

 

[Fudgie]

Exaggeration. Gotham is never supposed to feel like a safe town anyways. Its supposed to be like the worst city ever filled with crime and freaks. Batman was content with having everyone think he was some kinda Bat monster. Gotham being freaked out by Batman is nothin' new. Gotham is not even entirely sold on Batman anyways. He didnt enhance his public image attackin the cops with bats and flippin over their cars and crushing them with his tumbler when they were chasin him either. He doesnt care what the cops or the public think of him as long as he does what he needs to do. They had the freakin Mayor on TV talking about having the Major crimes unit hunting him down at the start of the flick.

Gotham doesnt need to love Batman. They dont even have to like him. Hes not a boy scout like Superman. Gothams hated Batman hundreds of times in the comics for lesser reasons than this.

 

[Solidus]

I agree with Joker, it was really the only thing he could do.

Gordon said they had the place surrounded, and they did. Now that Harvey is dead who some one has to be called out for his "murder". They can't say OJ did it or something. They had five people in there and a dead body, some one would be suggested no matter what. And the one that everyone would suggest with out a doubt is Batman. Clearly from the news, and other events, in this Batman world people are split about him, some support him, some think he's a criminal himself. So Batman being on the scene with a dead body, then having a hero's cop and his family there Batman knew he had only one chance.

Additionally he takes the hit for the other murders as well, why not? He's already being told he killed one guy, why not 5 or 6? They need to keep Dent's image good and try to keep it as a symbol of hope, something Batman could never be. I've talked about in the past that pinning the other deaths on the Joker could have serious backfire, so, it would be hard to do so. Batman in a split second decision knew he would be seen at this crime, and there really would be no other way. That and him disappearing would not be that easy in a building that is destroyed surrounded, and he was also pretty wounded you could tell after falling such a distance.

I always took the fall to be a split decision, mainly because of the crime scene he was currently at. No way could they point it at Gordon, no matter what people would insinuate that it was Bats anyways. As for the other murders why not? He's being told he did one, and with such a "character" like Batman you know people would think it was him anyways, shown by the uncertainty by people of the Batman.

In a sadistic way, when I saw the film I thought one thing. "Well at least now criminals will think that Batman is a killer and they will fear him more so. Since they felt they knew his "one rule" like Maroni said, now they will all fear him again because of this news of him murdering a handful of people."

 

[Motown Marvel]

Exaggeration. Gotham is never supposed to feel like a safe town anyways. Its supposed to be like the worst city ever filled with crime and freaks. Batman was content with having everyone think he was some kinda Bat monster. Gotham being freaked out by Batman is nothin' new. Gotham is not even entirely sold on Batman anyways. He didnt enhance his public image attackin the cops with bats and flippin over their cars and crushing them with his tumbler when they were chasin him either. He doesnt care what the cops or the public think of him as long as he does what he needs to do. They had the freakin Mayor on TV talking about having the Major crimes unit hunting him down at the start of the flick.

Gotham doesnt need to love Batman. They dont even have to like him. Hes not a boy scout like Superman. Gothams hated Batman hundreds of times in the comics for lesser reasons than this.

while it wouldnt hurt for gothams citizens to see a valuable hero in batman, thats not really the point.

with batman taking the wrap, heres what it creates:
-batman killed harvey dent, gotham lost its white knight, its lost its hope.
-gothams citizens believe there is a masked vigilante killing off good people like harvey. the city lives in fear.
-the cops are made to look incompetent.
-batmans mission to do good is now much harder due to the fact that the cops are gonna be all over him.
-batman choosing to lie proves the joker right, in regards to gothams citizens being so easily broken. which would be entirely hypocritical to the rest of the movie.

whats the alternative? tell the truth. harvey was a good man who pushed to a breaking point under bad circumstances. the city gets really bummed out by the tragedy of harvey dent. but his good deeds arent forgotten and in the end they rally to persevere another day like they always have before.

fact of the matter is, nolan wanted the movie to end to set up a sequel with batman being a wanted man. im totally cool with all that, its a great story. but the completely contrived execution of it is just stupid.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Batman wasn't a bigger symbol of hope than Dent. No way hosay. Batman even told Dent he was the symbol of hope than Batman can never be. The Mayor wasn't on the news talkin' about arresting Harvey Dent on site like he was with Batman. Gotham was divided on Batman, and they turned on him even more when Joker was killing people in his name.

How are they gonna blame some psycho dressed as Batman on all the killings? Didn't have to be Batman to get at Mrs Gordon, or Wurtz, or anyone else as Dent so clearly proved. Just like all them copycats were able to get at the Chechen and Scarecrow earlier in the movie. How many psychos have a Bat-Pod like Batman's like they all saw him escape on from the scene of the crime? Wake up and smell the coffee. They couldnt sweep it off on some phantom culprit. Someone had to own up to all those murders of cops and high profile mobsters, or they had to have a body of a culprit to pin it on.

Oh yeah and we only ever saw two kids like Batman. in these flicks. Narrows kid and Gordon's kid.

I dont know why just saying it was a guy in Batman's suit is so hard to conceive, especially sine like I already mentioned, it doesnt add up that Batman did it. Unless Gordon told the SWAT team that it wasnt really Batman and to keep a lid on it. They witnessed Batman JUST talking ands cooperating with Gordon and going to great lengths to save the hostages. They witnessed him capturing Joker. They heard Gordon talking to Dent on the phone re" his family while Batman was inside the building. It makes no sense. Not to mention that, no matter of Batman was as big or smaller symbol, he was a symbol of hope and help and change, and both symbols couldve save face if they just said that one of Joker's goons was dressed as Batman. Heck, they didnt even have to say that. They could say the killer fled and Dent got killed trying to help Batman save Gordon's kid. Batman was shot and hurt, it could easily add up. MUCH more than the collapsing house of cards with Batman all of a sudden doing 180 in 5 minutes

 

[The Joker]

I agree with Joker, it was really the only thing he could do.

Gordon said they had the place surrounded, and they did. Now that Harvey is dead who some one has to be called out for his "murder". They can't say OJ did it or something. They had five people in there and a dead body, some one would be suggested no matter what. And the one that everyone would suggest with out a doubt is Batman. Clearly from the news, and other events, in this Batman world people are split about him, some support him, some think he's a criminal himself. So Batman being on the scene with a dead body, then having a hero's cop and his family there Batman knew he had only one chance.

Additionally he takes the hit for the other murders as well, why not? He's already being told he killed one guy, why not 5 or 6? They need to keep Dent's image good and try to keep it as a symbol of hope, something Batman could never be. I've talked about in the past that pinning the other deaths on the Joker could have serious backfire, so, it would be hard to do so. Batman in a split second decision knew he would be seen at this crime, and there really would be no other way. That and him disappearing would not be that easy in a building that is destroyed surrounded, and he was also pretty wounded you could tell after falling such a distance.

I always took the fall to be a split decision, mainly because of the crime scene he was currently at. No way could they point it at Gordon, no matter what people would insinuate that it was Bats anyways. As for the other murders why not? He's being told he did one, and with such a "character" like Batman you know people would think it was him anyways, shown by the uncertainty by people of the Batman.

In a sadistic way, when I saw the film I thought one thing. "Well at least now criminals will think that Batman is a killer and they will fear him more so. Since they felt they knew his "one rule" like Maroni said, now they will all fear him again because of this news of him murdering a handful of people."

Wonderfully put

-batman killed harvey dent, gotham lost its white knight, its lost its hope.

It didn't lose it's hope. That was the whole point of it. Harvey being revealed as a killer would have lost the hope.

-gothams citizens believe there is a masked vigilante killing off good people like harvey. the city lives in fear.

As already mentioned, the City already lives in fear. It doesn't matter if Gotham is afraid of Batman, or hate him, or whatever. As long as he can do the job he wants to do, public opinion of him doesn't mean diddly squat.

-the cops are made to look incompetent.

In what way?

-batmans mission to do good is now much harder due to the fact that the cops are gonna be all over him.

They never stopped him before. They won't now.

-batman choosing to lie proves the joker right, in regards to gothams citizens being so easily broken. which would be entirely hypocritical to the rest of the movie.

Yes, the Joker was right in that regard. And Batman can't let him get his way. What kind of hero would willingly let the villain win like that?

whats the alternative? tell the truth. harvey was a good man who pushed to a breaking point under bad circumstances. the city gets really bummed out by the tragedy of harvey dent. but his good deeds arent forgotten and in the end they rally to persevere another day like they always have before.

And how do you know the people of Gotham would react this way? You can't guarantee that. It's too much of a risk to gamble on. Batman chose the lesser of two evils.

 

[The Joker]

I dont know why just saying it was a guy in Batman's suit is so hard to conceive, especially sine like I already mentioned, it doesnt add up that Batman did it. Unless Gordon told the SWAT team that it wasnt really Batman and to keep a lid on it. They witnessed Batman JUST talking ands cooperating with Gordon and going to great lengths to save the hostages. They witnessed him capturing Joker. They heard Gordon talking to Dent on the phone re" his family while Batman was inside the building. It makes no sense. Not to mention that, no matter of Batman was as big or smaller symbol, he was a symbol of hope and help and change, and both symbols couldve save face if they just said that one of Joker's goons was dressed as Batman. Heck, they didnt even have to say that. They could say the killer fled and Dent got killed trying to help Batman save Gordon's kid. Batman was shot and hurt, it could easily add up. MUCH more than the collapsing house of cards with Batman all of a sudden doing 180 in 5 minutes

For starters, you don't know what the SWAT cop heard. You just saw ONE of them look at Gordon when he was on his cell phone. That's it.

Not to mention Gordon said to Harvey when all the Cops arrived "All they know is there's a situation. They don't know who or what. They're just creating a perimeter". So there's the fact of the matter regarding what the Cops knew.

What makes no sense is that ONE guy managed to outwit Batman, Harvey, and Gordon, and escape, too? No way.

Gotham don't know diddly squat about Batman. He's still relatively new to Gotham in TDK. Public opinion is at best mixed on him. The public were very quick to turn on him when Joker started killing people in his name. Not one person at Harvey's press conference spoke up for Batman, except for Harvey himself.

You really think people are going to have a hard time swallowing that some total mystery guy who goes around in tank, plowing down Cop cars, and blowing up stuff, all while dressed as a giant bat wouldn't snap? Especially since he's ADMITTING to it, and he's got Jim Gordon backing it up.

 

[Anita18]

I agree with Joker, it was really the only thing he could do.

Gordon said they had the place surrounded, and they did. Now that Harvey is dead who some one has to be called out for his "murder". They can't say OJ did it or something. They had five people in there and a dead body, some one would be suggested no matter what. And the one that everyone would suggest with out a doubt is Batman. Clearly from the news, and other events, in this Batman world people are split about him, some support him, some think he's a criminal himself. So Batman being on the scene with a dead body, then having a hero's cop and his family there Batman knew he had only one chance.

Additionally he takes the hit for the other murders as well, why not? He's already being told he killed one guy, why not 5 or 6? They need to keep Dent's image good and try to keep it as a symbol of hope, something Batman could never be. I've talked about in the past that pinning the other deaths on the Joker could have serious backfire, so, it would be hard to do so. Batman in a split second decision knew he would be seen at this crime, and there really would be no other way. That and him disappearing would not be that easy in a building that is destroyed surrounded, and he was also pretty wounded you could tell after falling such a distance.

I always took the fall to be a split decision, mainly because of the crime scene he was currently at. No way could they point it at Gordon, no matter what people would insinuate that it was Bats anyways. As for the other murders why not? He's being told he did one, and with such a "character" like Batman you know people would think it was him anyways, shown by the uncertainty by people of the Batman.

In a sadistic way, when I saw the film I thought one thing. "Well at least now criminals will think that Batman is a killer and they will fear him more so. Since they felt they knew his "one rule" like Maroni said, now they will all fear him again because of this news of him murdering a handful of people."

Also, let's think of it this way - nobody has to say that Batman murdered those people in cold blood. (Well, okay maybe Wuertz. ) The possibility of him accidentally killing someone has followed him from the very beginning. Batman doesn't carry a gun himself, but BB and TDK showed him turning goons' guns to wound them. Maybe he missed and accidentally mortally wounded someone. (Of course we would know he wouldn't miss, but anyway... ) At least that would assuage people who'd say he wouldn't murder someone.

And in the case of Wuertz, Gordon already knew Wuertz was a traitor and people could figure that was crossing the line for Batman, who knows.

 

[General Vulcun]

Posted this a few months back, and feel it has relevance to this topic:

"Who said Batman wants to be redeemed? In addition to preserving Dent's image as Gotham's hero, there's a reason Batman didn't simply have Gordon tell people that Dent just fell (despite the polce already knowing a situation was up). Even though Batman gets the job done, he realises that his methods are not pure, that he does cross a line that a "hero" shouldn't cross. It's why he tries to set Dent up to take his title. Not just so he could be with Rachel but because he believed the image of Harvey Dent, of someone who could get the job done within the boundaries of the law, was the type of "hero" Gotham should be worshiping. If Batman clears Dent's name but doesn't take the blame for his crimes, then the people of Gotham will automatically turn to him [Batman] as their hero, and Batman simply can't have that.

Obviously Batman is so much a part of Bruce & means so much that he cannot find it in himself to cast the persona aside (really, what is keeping Batman from taking off his mask when he's confronting Two-Face & bringing Harvey back?) and will continue to go out & do what he has to do, but not as Gotham's "true hero", because like Bruce said: "Gotham needs a hero with a face.""

This is where the great tragedy in Nolan's Batman films lie, IMO, and what makes them such a great films. Gordon fully believes Batman is the hero Gotham deserves because he is willing to sacrifice his public image and reputation in order for the city to carry on. But Batman doesn't fully believe that himself. A true hero in his mind wouldn't cross the lines he crosses, and would act more like Harvey in that he uses the law to bring criminals to justice. But at the same time, Batman is a persona Bruce just can't let go of, can't live without. The two are inseparable, so while he believes that Batman cannot be Gotham's true hero, he also realises that because he can't let go of Batman that Batman becomes easily redefinable to suit Gotham's needs.

Bruce has locked himself onto a course which he may not be able to escape. A course in which he is dedicated to serve Gotham, no matter what the circumstances, until the day he dies.

 

[returntovoid]

while it wouldnt hurt for gothams citizens to see a valuable hero in batman, thats not really the point.

with batman taking the wrap, heres what it creates:
-batman killed harvey dent, gotham lost its white knight, its lost its hope.
-gothams citizens believe there is a masked vigilante killing off good people like harvey. the city lives in fear.
-the cops are made to look incompetent.
-batmans mission to do good is now much harder due to the fact that the cops are gonna be all over him.
-batman choosing to lie proves the joker right, in regards to gothams citizens being so easily broken. which would be entirely hypocritical to the rest of the movie.

whats the alternative? tell the truth. harvey was a good man who pushed to a breaking point under bad circumstances. the city gets really bummed out by the tragedy of harvey dent. but his good deeds arent forgotten and in the end they rally to persevere another day like they always have before.

fact of the matter is, nolan wanted the movie to end to set up a sequel with batman being a wanted man. im totally cool with all that, its a great story. but the completely contrived execution of it is just stupid.

I totally agree with you on this.

 

[El Payaso]

I'm still amazed at how easily Batman decided that lying to everybody was the answer. He just took a decision for everyone else fo what would be the best thing for everybody. He assumed everyone didn't want to know the truth so he assumed this paternalistic figure and took the personal right to decide on himself.