The Rise of Skywalker Adam Driver as Kylo Ren (IX)

[Donner]

Chris Terrio explaining that Han only spent a few minutes with Rey but decided that she should be his heir is peak BS. Remember kids, you are replaceable by your parents.

 

[henzINNIT]

I thought Adam Driver was excellent. That one scene I'll label "I know" was excellent and sold me on it. I really enjoyed his performance in this episode more so than the last two.

Yeah he was the mvp for me, particularly in the second half.

 

[TheVileOne]

Without Ben Solo you can't even really call the trilogy a Skywalker Saga, especially considering the main character isn't a Skywalker.

 

[Donner]

Good article on Ben Solo

STAR WARS: THE RISE OF SKYWALKER Has A Ben Solo Problem - Nerdist

 

[TheVileOne]

Everything about the ending felt off and unearned to me.

Spoiler

Ben/Kylo's sudden fainting and death was awkward. It reminded me of the worst parts of the prequels.

 

[Mani-Man]

Everything about the ending felt off and unearned to me.

Spoiler

Ben/Kylo's sudden fainting and death was awkward. It reminded me of the worst parts of the prequels.

Personally i can live with it, but yeah...it feels somehow...i dont know, it just feels off.

 

[jolldan]

Everything about the ending felt off and unearned to me.

Spoiler

Ben/Kylo's sudden fainting and death was awkward. It reminded me of the worst parts of the prequels.

Yeah sure everyone has gave their two cents but personally thought it would have been a lot better if he had been the one to survive and defeat the emperor with Rey giving her life to revive him.

 

[Donner]

Fans raised over $75,000 for Adam's charity so Joonas did the Ben Solo Challenge.

 

[henzINNIT]

The more I think about it, the more I think we were robbed of so much good Kylo material after his turn. If he was taken by Finn and Poe after his fight with Rey, we could have had so many great interactions with the major cast.

 

[SomeOldGuy]

 

[Donner]

That's interesting. Better he take up the Skywalker name than a Palpatine given that he's actually blood related.

 

[sueb1863]

Trying to picture how that would have worked out. Would Ben have gone back to where the Resistance was to tell them she was dead? Would he even know where to go? They probably would have killed him on sight. I doubt anybody would have listened to him even if they let him live.

 

[Donner]

The better ending? Have both of them live and the Skywalker name carries on in blood and individual choice.

 

[Mani-Man]

So he would have given up the name of his father to take his uncles? Yeah no that is even worse than what we got.
After they barely had any interest in developming the relationship between ben and his mother or uncle, they would have him "throw away" the name of his father...the only one that activly tried to get him back to the light side?

What in gods name? What was going on when they were developing this sequels? Were they constantly drunk or what?

 

[sueb1863]

It seems they were going with the 'throw it against the wall and see if it sticks' approach. Kylo's arc was the only part that was known from the start, the rest they made up as they went along.

Which is the same way Lucas did the OT but you'd think by now that they'd know better.

I sure hope that if they ever do another trilogy, they won't shoot a single frame without having the entire story mapped out from first scene to last.

 

[Mani-Man]

It seems they were going with the 'throw it against the wall and see if it sticks' approach. Kylo's arc was the only part that was known from the start, the rest they made up as they went along.

Which is the same way Lucas did the OT but you'd think by now that they'd know better.

I sure hope that if they ever do another trilogy, they won't shoot a single frame without having the entire story mapped out from first scene to last.

Hell not even Kylos arc most of the time seems to be consistant.
Its like they have were they start and where its ending, the middle and how to get there? No clue.

Its one thing if you do this approach when you dont have a established universe, but you would think that after paying 4 billion for Star Wars, they would have put a bit more thought into it all.

I get that sometimes you need to change stuff due to peoples reaction or that stuff doesnt work in the final cut and so...but having so clearly not really mapped out a trilogy of movies is just bad.

 

[Sian]

Kylo was the most interesting character in the ST.

They did everything they could to promote Poe, Finn and Rey as the next generation Han, Luke and Leia. It didn't work.

Not only did they kill off the last true Skywalker, they replaced him with Palpatine's granddaughter.
I am honestly stunned at what they've done. I'll never be able to watch any of the other films in the Skywalker saga again. Knowing that ultimately Palpatine succeeds in erasing Anakin's entire family line.....
Nope. Too depressing. All the hate directed at Rian Johnson should be reserved for this. Sorry.

 

[godisawesome]

Before I begin, I am a "Kylo hater" ... but i think I can offer up more objective and less passionate arguments than I usually do to explain some of my hypotheses or objections.

I can't imagine having Adam Driver in your movie and thinking it's okay to not give him any lines after he makes this huge shift in character.

The more I think about it, the more I think we were robbed of so much good Kylo material after his turn. If he was taken by Finn and Poe after his fight with Rey, we could have had so many great interactions with the major cast.

I think Ben's limited screentime post-turn is fundamentally because... he's the last Skywalker that everyone buys into.

As such, he's way too big to share the screen with a Rey Palaptine who's unrelated to the Skywalkers, been deprived of the capacity for major scenes with Fisher due to her tragic death, and suffering from a schizophrenic story-arc that is also likely trying to compensate for the perceived weaknesses or Rey Random in "The Skywalker Saga."

I mean, think about this: barely anything really new was conveyed about Kylo/Ben's past once the brief mention of Palaptine whispering in his head was mentioned, Ben Solo was given a monosyllabic script with an onomatopoeia instead of a word, and the character still had limited screentime... and yet there's a bunch of people, critics and fans alike, who still feel he overshadowed Rey.

That's not just the product of Adam Driver's talent. He's freakishly good, but the role is actually somewhat limited compared to his full skill set.

That's also very much, and in my opinion even mostly, the simple inadequacy of Rey's three film story-arc, which until TROS changes it, is supposed to be unconnected to the Skywalker family drama the series has at its heart (which Kylo has) and which has no real momentum or major character challenege left over form TLJ either (since that was more Luke's film than hers).

I think Abrams and Terio limited what Ben Solo did because they didn't think they could adequately make Rey stand out as the lead while still following even a hint of TLJ's creative philosophy *and* have Ben Solo get a redemption - which apparently had been ordered form on high in LFL and was the main reason Palpatine came back. Rey Palpatine is what happens when someone feels that Rey Random will get overshaowed by Ben Solo getting redeemed, but doesn't have the balls to go Rey Skywalker because that's too blatant a rejection of TLJ.

Even before including Driver's talents, a Skywalker grand-kid having a redemption story and bringing in the weight of his entire family story behind him is already a "threat" to character who's not part of that family.

Rey and Kylo do not have a reciprocal character relationship - the way TLJ set them up, one can only rise at the others' expense in some way or another.

Kylo was the most interesting character in the ST.

They did everything they could to promote Poe, Finn and Rey as the next generation Han, Luke and Leia. It didn't work.

Not only did they kill off the last true Skywalker, they replaced him with Palpatine's granddaughter.
I am honestly stunned at what they've done. I'll never be able to watch any of the other films in the Skywalker saga again. Knowing that ultimately Palpatine succeeds in erasing Anakin's entire family line.....
Nope. Too depressing. All the hate directed at Rian Johnson should be reserved for this. Sorry.

I have to vehemently disagree that "They did everything they could to promote "Poe, finn, and Rey as the next generation Han, Luke and Leia.

If they did, Rey would be a Skywalker or Solo, Finn would probably have been a Jedi or revolutionary (as Trevorrow's script made him), and that would be a more likely kiss to take place than Rey and Kylo. And if they were neglecting Kylo, he wouldn't be the main mascot for TFA, and still a huge presence always equal to Rey in TROS and TLJ's marketing, the only character to share more Han Solo screentime post-TFA, and we wouldn't be seeing Finn slide further and further back.

Was it scummy to kill the last Skywalker? Yeah. But Kylo only really got redeemed because he was the last Skywlaker; some fans considered them screwed the second Kylo lost Rey as a possible alternative legacy character peer.

I honestly think his story would have been better and his survival would have been more likely with Rey Skywalker; less pressure on him from any direction, and less of an uneven and parasitic relationship with Rey.

 

[Donner]

Kylo was the most interesting character in the ST.

They did everything they could to promote Poe, Finn and Rey as the next generation Han, Luke and Leia. It didn't work.

Not only did they kill off the last true Skywalker, they replaced him with Palpatine's granddaughter.
I am honestly stunned at what they've done. I'll never be able to watch any of the other films in the Skywalker saga again. Knowing that ultimately Palpatine succeeds in erasing Anakin's entire family line.....
Nope. Too depressing. All the hate directed at Rian Johnson should be reserved for this. Sorry.

I agree. They did the original cast dirty and ruined the sequel trilogy with an ending that absolutely sucked. Not only that, but trying to make Poe, Finn, and Rey this tight group at the end with that hug doesn't exactly jive with the fact that Poe doesn't trust Rey (and said so in the novel). Her and Finn are close, yes, but Rey and Poe only met at the end of TLJ and it's definitely not that strong of a friendship.

The whole thing felt like a remake of the OT, but with the character assassination of Luke, Han and Leia as being horrible parents and family members.

Ben Solo and Rey Nobody were the most interesting characters and they ruined Rey as well. And only in the comics and novels do we get an idea how tragic Ben's childhood was. Poor storytelling in the movies.

 

[Sian]

In TFA and TLJ, Han, Leia and Luke were shown as basically good people, but flawed.
Let's face it, Han and Leia love d each other but they weren't 'parent' material. For Leia, the 'greater' good came first. For Han, swanning around the galaxy with Chewie was what he wanted to do. They loved their son but unfortunately weren't there when he needed them, which made him wide open to a psychological predator (Andy Serkis's own words) like Snoke.

Luke's mistake was being Ben's master, when he should have been his uncle. As Leia said to Han, 'Luke's a Jedi, not his father.'

But TROS well and truly assassinates Luke and Leia's characters.
It now reveals Leia trained as a Jedi, but wouldn't train her own son - instead she sent him to Luke.
But she was willing to train Rey.
And the end scene, where both smile benevolently upon Rey, the Chosen Child, makes them look like heartless individuals who don't even mourn their own flesh and blood because they now have a much purer substitute.
Palpatine's granddaughter.
Does anyone here remember JJ Abrams saying before this film premiered that Kylo's ending was 'fun'?
Either he has a very weird sense of 'fun' or he was taking the p***!

 

[Donner]

That's the real knife in the back isn't it? Leia and Han (and Luke) chose Rey over their own flesh and blood. No *good* parent would do that and just reinforces that Ben's anger was justified if that's how his parents viewed him (expendable).

 

[godisawesome]

That's the real knife in the back isn't it? Leia and Han (and Luke) chose Rey over their own flesh and blood. No *good* parent would do that and just reinforces that Ben's anger was justified if that's how his parents viewed him (expendable).

Leia, Han and Luke still loved and sacrificed for Ben when he became a mass murderer trying to destroy every good thing they accomplished without ever knowing why he did what he did. His anger towards them is complete bollocks.

Han died trying to redeem his son, calling him by his real name, reminding him that Snoke was using him, and approaching him unarmed.

Luke was the family member Kylo most hated in an unrestrained manner... and yet he’s the one who encourages Leia to keep faith in her son and spends his last words telling him his dark path will fail.

Leia literally uses a Force technique that sacrifices her life for a slim chance at awakening what little of Ben is left which gets him redeemed.

They gave everything for Ben. Palpatine was brainwashing him in some unclear and silent manner that they couldn’t see, and they did the best they could to help them. They were still willing to take him back when he started killing their friends like Lor San Tekka and ordering civilian murdered for either convenience or to just try and be more evil.

Rey getting the name is awkward and terrible in execution because it doesn’t make sense from any perspective - her’s, the Skywalkers, the meta-story, you name it. But in no way were his family taking honor and love away from Ben by giving Rey a name. If anything they were saints for trying to get him to keep his.

At least Rey didn’t murder anybody...

 

[Donner]

In TFA and TLJ, Han, Leia and Luke were shown as basically good people, but flawed.
Let's face it, Han and Leia love d each other but they weren't 'parent' material. For Leia, the 'greater' good came first. For Han, swanning around the galaxy with Chewie was what he wanted to do. They loved their son but unfortunately weren't there when he needed them, which made him wide open to a psychological predator (Andy Serkis's own words) like Snoke.

Luke's mistake was being Ben's master, when he should have been his uncle. As Leia said to Han, 'Luke's a Jedi, not his father.'

But TROS well and truly assassinates Luke and Leia's characters.
It now reveals Leia trained as a Jedi, but wouldn't train her own son - instead she sent him to Luke.
But she was willing to train Rey.
And the end scene, where both smile benevolently upon Rey, the Chosen Child, makes them look like heartless individuals who don't even mourn their own flesh and blood because they now have a much purer substitute.
Palpatine's granddaughter.
Does anyone here remember JJ Abrams saying before this film premiered that Kylo's ending was 'fun'?
Either he has a very weird sense of 'fun' or he was taking the p***!

I remember the "fun" comment, too. I don't know what JJ's idea of fun is, but killing off the most popular character in the sequel trilogy after establishing that he was manipulated as an infant is definitely not fun.

“Star Wars was built and branded around the Skywalker name, a legacy of the righteous Queen of Naboo and the Chosen One, princess and best pilot in the galaxy and all passed down to the little prince. I have no problem with Rey taking the Skywalker name at the end of the film, if it wasn’t for how the life and legacy of Ben was handled. No mention of him after his death, no recognition that the infamous Kylo Ren had come home like his mother always thought he would, nothing but a few seconds in Rey’s arms until he disappeared. He didn’t get a funeral like his grandmother and grandfather before him, no homage to his sacrifice was mentioned. He didn’t even appear as a force ghost in his family’s home as a final goodbye and to give closure to the Skywalker legacy. Disney had so much potential for this trilogy, for Ben Solo, and instead they gave it to Rey without even honoring the Skywalker lineage. It was a pathetic end for a story line that's been going on since 1977.” –Ayanna Branham, ‘The Tragedy of Ben Solo’ (Comicbook Debate)

 

[Sian]

Leia, Han and Luke still loved and sacrificed for Ben when he became a mass murderer trying to destroy every good thing they accomplished without ever knowing why he did what he did. His anger towards them is complete bollocks.

Han died trying to redeem his son, calling him by his real name, reminding him that Snoke was using him, and approaching him unarmed.

Luke was the family member Kylo most hated in an unrestrained manner... and yet he’s the one who encourages Leia to keep faith in her son and spends his last words telling him his dark path will fail.

Leia literally uses a Force technique that sacrifices her life for a slim chance at awakening what little of Ben is left which gets him redeemed.

They gave everything for Ben. Palpatine was brainwashing him in some unclear and silent manner that they couldn’t see, and they did the best they could to help them. They were still willing to take him back when he started killing their friends like Lor San Tekka and ordering civilian murdered for either convenience or to just try and be more evil.

Rey getting the name is awkward and terrible in execution because it doesn’t make sense from any perspective - her’s, the Skywalkers, the meta-story, you name it. But in no way were his family taking honor and love away from Ben by giving Rey a name. If anything they were saints for trying to get him to keep his.

At least Rey didn’t murder anybody...

Er......what about those people on the ship who had Chewie?
And she very nearly 'murdered' Kylo when she stabbed him in the gut.....while he was unarmed.
Kylo actually never tried to kill Rey, when he ordered them to shoot down the Falcon on Crait he had no idea she was on board. He could have killed her on Starkiller. He chose to kill his mentor/abuser instead of her on the Supremacy. And if you closely watch the duel on the Death Star, he actually stopped from killing her BEFORE Leia reached him through the Force.
Rey meanwhile had no such compunction and didn't hesitate to stab him with his own weapon.
As for his parents and Luke.....I'm sure they loved him. But unfortunately all their sacrifices were 'after the event'. After his parents had sent him away, to a man he believed had tried to kill him. After Luke had made that fatal error of judgement.
By then Snoke had his claws in him. Too late to be sorry afterwards.

 

[godisawesome]

Er......what about those people on the ship who had Chewie?

And she very nearly 'murdered' Kylo when she stabbed him in the gut.....while he was unarmed.

Kylo actually never tried to kill Rey, when he ordered them to shoot down the Falcon on Crait he had no idea she was on board. He could have killed her on Starkiller. He chose to kill his mentor/abuser instead of her on the Supremacy. And if you closely watch the duel on the Death Star, he actually stopped from killing her BEFORE Leia reached him through the Force.

Rey meanwhile had no such compunction and didn't hesitate to stab him with his own weapon.

As for his parents and Luke.....I'm sure they loved him. But unfortunately all their sacrifices were 'after the event'. After his parents had sent him away, to a man he believed had tried to kill him. After Luke had made that fatal error of judgement.

By then Snoke had his claws in him. Too late to be sorry afterwards.

You mean that First Order prison barge? The one that we have no idea about it’s contents for? The one Rey *accidentally* destroyed because Kylo was trying to aggravate her and drive her to the dark side? The one that might have nothing more than FO personnel on it, and the one that Rey is obviously horrified at the destruction of because she clearly didn’t choose to do that... compared to pretty much everything Kylo does?


You mean Kylo Ren, the mass murderer who introduced himself to the audience by killing an old unarmed man for daring to remind him his parents were good people then had a village killed because they were inconvenient witnesses? The same dude who tortured or allowed her to be tortured multiple times and violated her mind? The one who killed his own father when his father approached him with open arms and only peaceful intentions? The one who then waved the thing he murdered Han with at Rey during their Death Star duel while leading the First Order, a genocidal fascist empire that had murdered billions in a crime against sentience that he was currently benefitting from as the chief non-Palpatine power in the Galaxy?


And yeah, he was totally trying to have her killed when he ordered the Falcon fired upon. There’s no ambiguity in that. When he follows up that scene with his confrontation with Luke and declares he’ll kill her, he’s showing his current emotional state: “Kill everything because I’m not happy!”


Frankly, Rey could have let him die after justifiably stabbing him during their fight, and no jury in the world would convict her, and most would applaud and award her. He’s basically Space Himmler at that point in time; he answers to Space Hitler, and has nothing but horrible intentions for everyone.


There is *no* moral equivalence between Rey and Kylo. Frankly, Rey just not being Kylo would make her a better family member right off the bat. Her being a hero is just a bonus.


And unless Charles Soule reveals that Ben’s Palpatine’s “Force Schizophrenia” was clearly observable or reported to his parents and uncle before the night at the Hut, they owe him *nothing* before his fall that they don’t already give him.


Everything we have so far in the canon books shows them as loving parents, and thus far Palpatine’s manipulations have only been observed when he’s already at the academy and keeping it to himself. And frankly, if Han and Leia do observe that something’s going on in his mind, and do anything like take him to a psychologist even before seeing Luke, then it still ain’t their fault, and he’s still the one with the agency that lead to his fall.


The trick with Ben is that he either had agency in his fall and his redemption, or he had none in either. So either Han and Leia couldn’t have stopped him from getting brainwashed despite their best efforts because Palpatine was overriding his will entirely, and in which case Leia gave him back his agency, or he did have agency during Palpatine’s manipulations, in which case I’m afraid the responsibility for being a mass murderer and torturer are squarely on his shoulders.


Kylo can’t be held to some standard that no one else gets. The Galaxy doesn’t revolve around Kylo. His delusions don’t matter more than the people he killed.


Rey is simply a more worthy person than he is, even if both are dubious in term a of their literary merit as characters.


Frankly, most of the sentiments on screen are more worthy than Kylo. That’s the cost of being the mass murdering bad guy. You don’t get to be the poor little puppy.