BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - Part 249

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]509589[/split]

 

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]509553[/split]

 

[DerekLake]

DANG IT! Well, what I was going to say:

Its actually an opportunity for WB that, hopefully, they capitalize on.

MOS was divisive, it underperformed at the BO - expectations.

Yet controversy breeds interest and, if WB can readjust those things vis a vis Supes from MOS that did not connect, its a perfect chance to re-launch him. Especially with Bats as the catalyst in BvS.

I certainly have hope that with Terrio on board, BvS patches up a lot of the issues with Goyer's script regarding dialogue and plot emphasis. But, I really don't understand the "underperformed" claim as anything more than a mismatch between Robinov's completely exaggerated predictions and the reality of Superman's current popularity. Man of Steel only underperformed if, like Robinov, you somehow thought that Man of Steel would make in excess of $1.3 billion. It was a pipe dream. Superman has arguably never been that popular, not even in the early Donner days when he had no competition.

And that sort of dovetails into the previous conversation. Regardless of what we think Superman needs, the fact is that he hasn't been the most popular hero for several decades now. Even Smallville's popularity is the result of a much more angstier, teenage take on the character.

Right now Superman is caught between diehard classic fans and critics (who don't represent the general audience), the MCU-loving critics (who have the pulse of a good slice of the GA), and the TDK fans who would prefer a darker, BA take. Obviously a lot of other people fall in between the cracks. But these different expectations have served to prevent Superman from really adapting well (at least on film).

So I'm willing to cut MOS some slack. It was trying to do what needed to be done in 2006, and it's a bit harder when Superman arguably hasn't gained as many newer fans as other characters. Man of Steel certainly could have had a much better execution, but I think the change in approach was just what Superman needed.

 

[OneKickMan]

The Atlantic nails it on Superman. IMO.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertain...perman/435408/

My favorite parts were:

Marvel had, in effect, figured out how to supplant Superman. In doing so, they began selling not just to children but also to college students, and eventually to adults.

Followed by

In one of the uglier paradoxes of the superhero-comics industry, characters who were devised to entertain children soon became completely unsuitable for them.

Anyway...I guess there's no way to fix Superman. He's broken. Unsuccessful. Especially in the eyes of the USA public:

Domestic Gross:

Man of Steel $291,045,518
The Amazing Spider-Man $262,030,663
Captain America: The Winter Soldier $259,766,572
X-Men: Days of Future Past $233,921,534
Thor: The Dark World $206,362,140
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles $191,204,754
Ant-Man $180,202,163
X-Men Origins: Wolverine $179,883,157
The Incredible Hulk $134,806,913

In America, home of Superman, he's still mighty popular...just maybe not as much as Batman and Iron-Man.

 

[Tobias]

DANG IT! Well, what I was going to say:



I certainly have hope that with Terrio on board, BvS patches up a lot of the issues with Goyer's script regarding dialogue and plot emphasis. But, I really don't understand the "underperformed" claim as anything more than a mismatch between Robinov's completely exaggerated predictions and the reality of Superman's current popularity. Man of Steel only underperformed if, like Robinov, you somehow thought that Man of Steel would make in excess of $1.3 billion. It was a pipe dream. Superman has arguably never been that popular, not even in the early Donner days when he had no competition.

And that sort of dovetails into the previous conversation. Regardless of what we think Superman needs, the fact is that he hasn't been the most popular hero for several decades now. Even Smallville's popularity is the result of a much more angstier, teenage take on the character.

Right now Superman is caught between diehard classic fans and critics (who don't represent the general audience), the MCU-loving critics (who have the pulse of a good slice of the GA), and the TDK fans who would prefer a darker, BA take. Obviously a lot of other people fall in between the cracks. But these different expectations have served to prevent Superman from really adapting well (at least on film).

So I'm willing to cut MOS some slack. It was trying to do what needed to be done in 2006, and it's a bit harder when Superman arguably hasn't gained as many newer fans as other characters. Man of Steel certainly could have had a much better execution, but I think the change in approach was just what Superman needed.

Supes is in a tough spot regarding expectations to be sure.

Whether Robinov expected 1.3 billion or WB otherwise expected a billion, MOS underperformed. That is not up for argument in hingsight. Check out any film site.

The truth is Superman is a second tier character and has been for a while. His comics are barely in the top 50. WW, Flash and Aquaman do nearly as well.

The issue becomes the budget. A second tier character cannot command the 250 million plus budget of the top tier characters. Check out the Ant Man budget.

So how does WB move Superman to the top again?

First, before anything else, Supes has to engage audiences in BvS.

Then build on that. Supes in JL1 and JL2.

If the character can be made more viable post JL2 then WB will hopefully agree to invest the 250 million or more by 2020 (post JL2) a Superman film would cost.

 

[Captain Shazam]

MOS UNDER PERFORMED AT THE BO

Well, it did more than Batman Begins, a character considered, by many, much more popular.

 

[Captain Shazam]

The truth is Superman is a second tier character and has been for a while. His comics are barely in the top 50. WW, Flash and Aquaman do nearly as well.

OMG. Thanks for the info, Kevin Tsujihara.

 

[Mandon Knight]

The notion that Superman is a 'second tier' character....

 

[Captain Shazam]

The notion that Superman is a 'second tier' character....

Who said that?

 

[antoineflemming]

Supes is in a tough spot regarding expectations to be sure.

Whether Robinov expected 1.3 billion or WB otherwise expected a billion, MOS underperformed. That is not up for argument in hingsight. Check out any film site.

The truth is Superman is a second tier character and has been for a while. His comics are barely in the top 50. WW, Flash and Aquaman do nearly as well.

The issue becomes the budget. A second tier character cannot command the 250 million plus budget of the top tier characters. Check out the Ant Man budget.

So how does WB move Superman to the top again?

First, before anything else, Supes has to engage audiences in BvS.

Then build on that. Supes in JL1 and JL2.

If the character can be made more viable post JL2 then WB will hopefully agree to invest the 250 million or more by 2020 (post JL2) a Superman film would cost.

It's ridiculous that WB ever expected a billion+ for Superman. If the Donner-love-letter Superman Returns couldn't get anywhere close to that (which the first Superman basically made, considering inflation), then they never should've expected that for MOS. That aside, MOS did very well for a Superman film. It made the most money out of any Superman film to date, and if you consider inflation, it's the second or third highest-grossing Superman film. That's not bad at all.

 

[Broseph44]

Who said that?

Tobias of course.

 

[OneKickMan]

Well, it did more than Batman Begins, a character considered, by many, much more popular.

It also did more than Spider-Man, X-Men, Wolverine, Captain-America, Thor, and the Hulk in the United States. Superman has greater difficulty in other markets that don't even sell Superman comics.

 

[Captain Shazam]

Tobias of course.

Oh, ok. lol.

 

[False Prophet]

I don't take it as fact that MoS underperformed. At all.

Approximately 300M domestically and 700M worldwide for the initial offering in a rebooted franchise is underperforming? I'm not sure what metric these reputable "film sites" were using. Make the argument all you want about the quality of the movie, but the money it made... Some of these expectations are so far removed from reality it's comical.

 

[Tobias]

Wht a top tier film franchise then?

1 billion and north is my marker.

Drop it to 900 million? Maybe. 800 million? TASM2 did not make that and ...

Spiderman was supposed to be a top tier franchise and what happened when it "only" did 720 million.

Ant Man is or was a third tier franchise but made more ROI than MOS. Or at least made the same ROI.

Financials, financials.

There is Cap, Guardians, Ironman, batman and Avengers among the top tier film superhero franchise standards/bars. Not counting Star Wars and Bond and other non-superhero film franchises.

To argue BB at this date 10 years past is irrelevant. if you want to argue Batman argue TDKR. Heck, AM way outperformed BB.

 

[kguillou]

It also did more than Spider-Man, X-Men, Wolverine, Captain-America, Thor, and the Hulk in the United States. Superman has greater difficulty in other markets that don't even sell Superman comics.

To be completely fair, MoS cost more to make than all of those movies which may be why WB was expecting a bigger return. But thats a bigger problem in Hollywood with their super inflated budgets which are unnecessary. ( Although you could clearly see where the money went with MoS as it had beautifully detailed CGI and special effects.)

 

[Jekecy]

I don't take it as fact that MoS underperformed. At all.

Approximately 300M domestically and 700M worldwide for the initial offering in a rebooted franchise is underperforming? I'm not sure what metric these reputable "film sites" were using. Make the argument all you want about the quality of the movie, but the money it made... Some of these expectations are so far removed from reality it's comical.

I don't usually like leaning towards this argument; but perception is a powerful thing. It will heavily impact and twist the facts to portray a particular image and reception.

It's why a film like Mad Max, which didn't even break even on its budget here in the states, has next to zero bad buzz surrounding its performance. The quality of the film, the critical reception, and the universal awards recognition have completely overshadowed whatever failings it had at the box office.

If anything it goes to show just how divisive MOS really was, if "facts" can be downplayed or used against itself.

 

[DerekLake]

Supes is in a tough spot regarding expectations to be sure.

Whether Robinov expected 1.3 billion or WB otherwise expected a billion, MOS underperformed. That is not up for argument in hingsight. Check out any film site.

The truth is Superman is a second tier character and has been for a while. His comics are barely in the top 50. WW, Flash and Aquaman do nearly as well.

The issue becomes the budget. A second tier character cannot command the 250 million plus budget of the top tier characters. Check out the Ant Man budget.

So how does WB move Superman to the top again?

First, before anything else, Supes has to engage audiences in BvS.

Then build on that. Supes in JL1 and JL2.

If the character can be made more viable post JL2 then WB will hopefully agree to invest the 250 million or more by 2020 (post JL2) a Superman film would cost.

You can't claim that MOS underperformed without a baseline for what it should have done. That baseline could either be based on budget or past performances. Based on budget, yeah Man of Steel should have made more. Based on past performance, Man of Steel did just fine.

As for BvS and forward, I agree. Superman has to engage audiences, and that's not an easy thing to do given critical expectations of Superman AND CBMs in general, based in part on the Donner approach and the MCU.

I do think BvS is a really good way to do that. It's not really about Batman helping Superman out BO wise. It's really about giving Superman an interesting and challenging conflict that he otherwise could not have with his own villains. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, that's what I think Superman lacks more than anything.

Consider that Captain America, even the MCU's Captain America, isn't much more interesting as a character than Superman. And yet by shaping Cap's environment and circumstances in the right way, the Russos made him much, much more compelling. Nolan's Batman is somewhat similar, in that TDK really shines not so much on Bruce Wayne or Batman (they were quite mediocre compared to comic versions), but on the conflict and villains presented. That's what Superman needs, and that's what BvS gives him.

Regarding the future, I think it will depend on the nature of the conflict and the quality of the villain. Those things, plus the supporting cast (an important feature), will help to make Superman shine.

 

[Beatnation]

I'm strangely pumped for the Supergirl episode from today, this show keep getting better and better.

 

[flickchick85]

This is not the place to debate the box office performance of MoS. Take it to the MoS forum, folks.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Wht a top tier film franchise then?

1 billion and north is my marker.

Drop it to 900 million? Maybe. 800 million? TASM2 did not make that and ...

Spiderman was supposed to be a top tier franchise and what happened when it "only" did 720 million.

Ant Man is or was a third tier franchise but made more ROI than MOS. Or at least made the same ROI.

Financials, financials.

There is Cap, Guardians, Ironman, batman and Avengers among the top tier film superhero franchise standards/bars. Not counting Star Wars and Bond and other non-superhero film franchises.

To argue BB at this date 10 years past is irrelevant. if you want to argue Batman argue TDKR. Heck, AM way outperformed BB.

You are on the same level as zryson, i would always get you confused

 

[BlueLanternKal]

Man of Steel - $668 million
Iron Man - $585.2 million

*drops mic*

 

[Rorschach2012]

I'm strangely pumped for the Supergirl episode from today, this show keep getting better and better.

Dude i know. Ever since MM was intro'd it's been great. It was so cool to see the decimation of Mars at the hands of the White Martians


Then the Toyman episode came and that was imo the best episode yet

The Bizarro ep was a lotta fun too

 

[DerekLake]

Wht a top tier film franchise then?

1 billion and north is my marker.

Drop it to 900 million? Maybe. 800 million? TASM2 did not make that and ...

Spiderman was supposed to be a top tier franchise and what happened when it "only" did 720 million.

Ant Man is or was a third tier franchise but made more ROI than MOS. Or at least made the same ROI.

Financials, financials.

There is Cap, Guardians, Ironman, batman and Avengers among the top tier film superhero franchise standards/bars. Not counting Star Wars and Bond and other non-superhero film franchises.

To argue BB at this date 10 years past is irrelevant. if you want to argue Batman argue TDKR. Heck, AM way outperformed BB.

$1 billion+ is your standard for top tier, 800 is your lower bound. Yet you then go on to count Captain America and Guardians of the Galaxy as top tier. That makes no sense.


EDIT: Sorry, MOS discussion over. Relatedly, I think Batman v Superman will have little problem crossing $1 billion, unless there are some really loud critics complaining that BvS isn't as chippery as Civil War (oh wait, all the marketing for that has been equally depressing).

 

[OneKickMan]

Wht a top tier film franchise then?

1 billion and north is my marker.

Drop it to 900 million? Maybe. 800 million? TASM2 did not make that and ...

Spiderman was supposed to be a top tier franchise and what happened when it "only" did 720 million.

Ant Man is or was a third tier franchise but made more ROI than MOS. Or at least made the same ROI.

Financials, financials.

There is Cap, Guardians, Ironman, batman and Avengers among the top tier film superhero franchise standards/bars. Not counting Star Wars and Bond and other non-superhero film franchises.

To argue BB at this date 10 years past is irrelevant. if you want to argue Batman argue TDKR. Heck, AM way outperformed BB.

MoS almost doubled Captain America: First Avenger. MoS almost made as much as The Winter Solider in the worldwide Market, and defeated The Winter Solider in the domestic market. How is Cap top tier and Superman isn't?

MoS actually topped Iron-Man 1 and Iron-Man 2 in the worldwide market.

Avengers and Guardians were team movies.

In terms of merchandise, only Spider-Man and Batman are solo characters that sell more world-wide.

In terms of domestic market, Man of Steel outperformed just about every Marvel movie.

EDIT: BvS: DoJ hopefully breaks 1 billion so we can stop having this conversations, lol.