Comics Am I the only one who still loves John Byrne's Superman?

[Cain]

Nope nope nope and a huge spoonful of more nope.

"Ponder this no longer, as Waid himself admits that "Superman: Birthright" is the new official origin of Superman and a "calculated" reboot. "If by 'calculated' we mean 'thought out in great detail to the Nth degree by creators who love the character,' then yes. Accept no substitutes-'Birthright' is officially the DC Comics Origin of Superman. I wish we could have simply said that up front nine months ago when the series began, but overall plans for Superman in 2003 were still somewhat in flux, so DC decided to be a little more circumspect about it and instead surprise fans with the building falllout to 'Birthright' as it pops up in the regular ongoing Superman monthlies. Readers seem very surprised, in a very good way. 'Birthright' is very much the foundation of everything DC's planning for Superman in the future. It was our job to pave the way, it is essential Superman reading, and it's an honor to present it."

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=3256

Birthright was the canon. You can't have two origin stories and say that they are both correct. Man of Steel and Birthright tell radically different portrayals of Superman's origin, including how Clark revealed himself to the world. It may upset you some how as a Superman fan, but the reality is Man of Steel hasn't been canon for seven years now, nor will it be canon. Even now, Secret Origin replaces Infinite Crisis, which replaced Birthright, which replaced Man of Steel.

Sorry my friend but I will believe DC themselves over any fellow fan any day and they themselves stated back then and maintained up until IC that both stories were the origins. Again I know it seems confusing because indeed they are dramatically different takes on the mythos (I enjoyed both BTW) but DC editorial said it themselves that Birthright did not remove Man Of Steel at all, google it if you want cause I'm sure this info would have to be online as it's not just something I'm pulling out of my ass here.

That being said post-IC (Secret Origin) uses elements of both stories which in turn is really just a big amalgamation of pre and post-crisis while also adding it's own things as well. It's like how with Batman Son of the Demon did indeed still happen but not in the way Mike Barr once told us.

Oh and part of the reason BATMAN is so reflective of the Englehart/Rogers comics is because Englehart himself wrote a script that the movie eventually used elements from except boss Thorne was turned into Carl Grissom and things like that once Sam Hamm rewrote the movie.

 

[The ?ion]

Well, considering I am directly quoting an interview with Mark Waid as opposed to referring to a nebulous interview, I am not sure how you conclude that you would be listening to a fellow fan instead of DC. I am quoting DC. More specific, I am quoting the author of the work in question. I am not inferring that Birthright was the only canon at the time. I gathered that fact from good old fashioned research, interviews and quotes. But if you want to doubt a direct quote from Mark Waid himself, then there is probably little hope for this discussion or the relevance of facts. We are all comic book fans, and in this case, Superman fans, so que sera sera.

 

[Cain]

Well, considering I am directly quoting an interview with Mark Waid as opposed to referring to a nebulous interview, I am not sure how you conclude that you would be listening to a fellow fan instead of DC. I am quoting DC. More specific, I am quoting the author of the work in question. I am not inferring that Birthright was the only canon at the time. I gathered that fact from good old fashioned research, interviews and quotes. But if you want to doubt a direct quote from Mark Waid himself, then there is probably little hope for this discussion or the relevance of facts. We are all comic book fans, and in this case, Superman fans, so que sera sera.

Yeah I understand you quoted Waid but when the actual editors behind the project (Berganza, Carlin) contradict what the author himself may think well I'd side with the editors since they're the one's who control the creative direction of the comic book line for better or worse. All the writers do is contribute & execute their ideas not necessarily make them stick in the long run.

 

[The ?ion]

Well, I've never seen this editorial that claims that both MOS and BR were simultaneously canon (even though that is ridiculous since BR contradicts MOS on so many things). And you have yet to post this evidence. In the mean time, there is plenty of evidence from verified sources (and I'd take Mark Waid's word over your conjecture) that states that BR was the canon that replaced MOS. Not like all of this banter is useful though. This is a thread about appreciating John Byrne's now retconned canon. So it is pointless to debate over two stories that now might as well be Elseworlds or Imaginary Tales.

 

[Cain]

Well, I've never seen this editorial that claims that both MOS and BR were simultaneously canon (even though that is ridiculous since BR contradicts MOS on so many things). And you have yet to post this evidence. In the mean time, there is plenty of evidence from verified sources (and I'd take Mark Waid's word over your conjecture) that states that BR was the canon that replaced MOS. Not like all of this banter is useful though. This is a thread about appreciating John Byrne's now retconned canon. So it is pointless to debate over two stories that now might as well be Elseworlds or Imaginary Tales.

Call it "conjecture" if you like kind sir I truly don't give a **** I was just stating what DC editors maintained in interviews. Surprisingly I'm googling this crap now and all I get is portions referring to that on the wikipedia pages of MoS which state

"DC stated that Birthright and Man of Steel formed the full "official" origin for Superman. Birthright made use of many elements of Man of Steel that tied into the other series, but also introduced new aspects ignored by Byrne and thus brought back various pre-Crisis elements (such as Lex and Clark as childhood friends in Smallville)."

and Birthright

however, DC stated that Birthright didn't remove The Man of Steel, but both were Superman's origin story.[

respectfully, however wikipedia has no link to the original articles that popped up in magazines back in '04 and stuff that I & others clearly remember reading so go figure, if you think it ******** think it so cause I tried to dig up stuff by using google but came up short which surprised me since I though google had everything but then again I was never made for this internet research stuff, 9 times outta 10 I mostly post off my memory and not what I read parroted around the net. But if I found that then good at least it confirmed to me I'm not the only person on this planet that remembered those statements as confusing as they were.

 

[The ?ion]

Well Wikipedia is not often the best source of information, but I will applaud your effort to confirm you point. I did not mean to drive you to the point of being irritated (as it is now showing through). I merely had never heard of this conflicting editorial.

I must note however, that the Wikipedia article that you cite, contradicts your claim.

"From 1986 to 2004, this series was regarded as the "official" origin of Superman; in 2004, it was superseded by Superman: Birthright.[1] However, after the 2006 conclusion of the DCU-spanning Infinite Crisis storyline, the Birthright series' was removed in favor of the Superman: Secret Origin mini-series in 2009."

But I do note that your quote is listed and sourced back to Superman Home Page. CBR has more credibility than SHP, and CBR is quoting Mark Waid, but I can see that information is being put out there that is sourced and conflicted.

So, with that said, I believe that the most appropriate conclusion is that we will have to call this matter unresolved (unless somebody wants to e-mail Paul Levitz). With conflicting reports and sources, it is unlikely that anything fruitful will be gained. I do still have more trust for CBR and the word of Mark Waid, but you won't be convinced of that, no more than I will be convinced of this elusive editorial. The debate has been a pleasure sir.

 

[SuperMike335!!]

Just wonding, Title says it all.

I think Bryne is a good idea man. Some of them were stinkers however. Birthing Matrix being the #1 on my not like list.

That being said, his style of drawing Superman in hos re-boot run is right up there with my other favorites in Jim Lee, and Alex Ross. That rounds out my top3 artists for Superman.

Storywise, as far as the Universe he exists in, STAS was my favorite take on it. Much of it may have felt like Bryne, but it got rid of some of his worse ideas and put in place the earlier version stuff where it fit. Even that I was not 100% satisfied with however, as I thought he was too down powered there.

 

[The ?ion]

Indeed. The one thing Byrne did exceptionally well, was make Superman mighty, but not godly. It is sometimes hard to remember that Superman started off with powers, that by today's standards, are very meager. Indeed he would not be so relevant if his powerset had not changed, but sometimes, he is too powerful for his own good. Byrne really knew how to temper that aspect of the character. The birthing matrix is also something I wasn't fond of. It makes less sense that there would be a need to send Kal-El to Earth, if he is technically waiting to be born. There would have been no threat to his existence, because he technically didn't exist yet.

 

[DavidTyler]

I think Bryne is a good idea man. Some of them were stinkers however. Birthing Matrix being the #1 on my not like list.

That being said, his style of drawing Superman in hos re-boot run is right up there with my other favorites in Jim Lee, and Alex Ross. That rounds out my top3 artists for Superman.

Storywise, as far as the Universe he exists in, STAS was my favorite take on it. Much of it may have felt like Bryne, but it got rid of some of his worse ideas and put in place the earlier version stuff where it fit. Even that I was not 100% satisfied with however, as I thought he was too down powered there.

Indeed. The one thing Byrne did exceptionally well, was make Superman mighty, but not godly. It is sometimes hard to remember that Superman started off with powers, that by today's standards, are very meager. Indeed he would not be so relevant if his powerset had not changed, but sometimes, he is too powerful for his own good. Byrne really knew how to temper that aspect of the character. The birthing matrix is also something I wasn't fond of. It makes less sense that there would be a need to send Kal-El to Earth, if he is technically waiting to be born. There would have been no threat to his existence, because he technically didn't exist yet.

Mike and ?ion, as I've stated many times... Byrne originally wanted to send a pregnant Lara to Earth and the powers that be (maybe it was Levits or Kahn) nixxed that idea so he went with an artificial womb.

That artificial womb creates a lot more plausibility than strapping a baby into the cockpit of a rocket with a few blankets and firing him off for a long journey into space with the expectation that he would arrive as a living, unharmed being.

 

[Young Superman]

Agreed

 

[The ?ion]

Mike and ?ion, as I've stated many times... Byrne originally wanted to send a pregnant Lara to Earth and the powers that be (maybe it was Levits or Kahn) nixxed that idea so he went with an artificial womb.

That artificial womb creates a lot more plausibility than strapping a baby into the cockpit of a rocket with a few blankets and firing him off for a long journey into space with the expectation that he would arrive as a living, unharmed being.

But we are already suspending disbelief about this vastly superior alien species. While it is mind boggling that blankets and a rocket could survive a long journey, based on our limited capabilities, why is it so hard to believe that Kryptonians could create a rocket capable of sustaining life and enduring the dangers of deep space travel? Just because Clark looks human, doesn't mean we can think of him on human terms.

As for Lara landing on earth, the simple fact is, that plot element didn't happen. We can't wrestle with plot elements that never materialized. We can only deal with the story that was told. And as it was told, the birthing matrix was not a likable detail.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

I'm the only ne who loved the concept of the so-called "birthing matrix." For one: it protected that precious baby (without whom the Earth would have many problems.) For two: it only symbolically birthed him when the rocket was opened after it hit Earth (we all know he was already born on Kryton.)

 

[The ?ion]

I have no problem with the birthing matrix itself, as much as I have a problem with what it represents. No, not the womb, but the coldness of Byrne's Kryptonians. It is enough to have science fiction occupied by the Vulcans. We don't need anymore sterile, cold, logical aliens. I know that Superman is the way he is because of his middle-America small town upbringing, but I always felt that another part of it, is because Kryptonians are supposed to be more advanced than humans, not just in intellect, but in behavior. It seems too distant to have a child be born through a machine.

 

[Mace Dolex]

I'm reading through some Superman comics from the 80's and wondering whatever happened to Cat Grant, is she still in the current comics?

 

[Cain]

I'm reading through some Superman comics from the 80's and wondering whatever happened to Cat Grant, is she still in the current comics?

Yes

 

[DavidTyler]

But we are already suspending disbelief about this vastly superior alien species. While it is mind boggling that blankets and a rocket could survive a long journey, based on our limited capabilities, why is it so hard to believe that Kryptonians could create a rocket capable of sustaining life and enduring the dangers of deep space travel? Just because Clark looks human, doesn't mean we can think of him on human terms.

As for Lara landing on earth, the simple fact is, that plot element didn't happen. We can't wrestle with plot elements that never materialized. We can only deal with the story that was told. And as it was told, the birthing matrix was not a likable detail.

For some...

As for me - I loved the Birthing Matrix. It made sense and was exciting not only from a story telling point but visually as well. I really felt like I was looking at the trappings of an advanced, alien culture.

 

[The ?ion]

For some...

As for me - I loved the Birthing Matrix. It made sense and was exciting not only from a story telling point but visually as well. I really felt like I was looking at the trappings of an advanced, alien culture.

Fair enough.

 

[CLARKY]

some idea were good, some ... less but I think Byrne's is the definitive origin because of it simpleness. Futuristic alien planet doomed. Scientist sends the boy. Discovered by farmers. Strong education. Super powers. Goes to Metropolis. Martha makes the suit. Become Superman.
Everything else, in my opinion, might be subject to change according to the writer, the readers, the movies effects (glups), the era, or the editorial decisions. So as long as those elements remains, the core, I would say, I'm fine.

 

[Young Superman]

Is it true Byrne based his Superman off Christopher Reeve because he thought he couldn't draw Curt Swan's version of Superman. Because John Byrne's Superman really looks like Reeve.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

Is it true Byrne based his Superman off Christopher Reeve because he thought he couldn't draw Curt Swan's version of Superman. Because John Byrne's Superman really looks like Reeve.

i have heard that also... does anyone know if this is true?

 

[Daybreak_st]

That artificial womb creates a lot more plausibility than strapping a baby into the cockpit of a rocket with a few blankets and firing him off for a long journey into space with the expectation that he would arrive as a living, unharmed being.

something along these lines would have worked just as well, although i would make the ship simply land instead of crash landing: