The Dark Knight Rises Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Michelle has alot in her favour...

- She is required to hit many emotional highlights
- She is playing at least four separate personalities
- She was allowed to use her sexuality in a raw and powerful way
- She had a stunning, sexy costume that has become nothing short of iconic
- Her romance with Batman was much more intense and therefore more involving.

Plus, I think she is just a better actress all round.

Anne was good but she was playing a neutered version of the character (Yes Burton moulded her as a crazy *****... but at least he truly embraced the character of CATWOMAN unlike Nolan).

 

[ThePhantasm]

- She is playing at least four separate personalities

Not disagreeing with you, but could you elaborate on that?

 

[milost]

- Secretary, meek Selina Kyle


- Catwoman


- Conflicted Selina Kyle ("just scaring myself", "I don't know anymore, Bruce")



Can't think of a 4th.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Not disagreeing with you, but could you elaborate on that?

- The mousy secretary (''Executive assistant'') t:
- The rejuvenated Selina Kyle... with newfound empowerment.
- The full-blown Catwoman persona... with all her sexual, aggressive, feminist rage.
- The conflicted Selina Kyle who we see at times trying to reconcile the two aspects of her psychosis.

Bearing in mind that Michelle had to hit all these notes while shooting the movie out of continuity.

Michelle explains it better than me @2:45

[YT]dn36NdpY91I[/YT]

 

[uniqueweasel]

- The mousy secretary (''Executive assistant'') t:
- The rejuvenated Selina Kyle... with newfound empowerment.
- The full-blown Catwoman persona... with all her sexual, aggressive, feminist rage.
- The conflicted Selina Kyle who we see at times trying to reconcile the two aspects of her psychosis.

Bearing in mind that Michelle had to hit all these notes while shooting the movie out of continuity.

Michelle explains it better than me @2:45

[YT]dn36NdpY91I[/YT]

Thanks for the clip, never seen that before. Sorry girls but Pfeiffer all the way.

 

[BatLobster]

What do you think of, "Cat got your tongue"?

I thought, "Well, could've seen that one coming a mile away". But it's kinda downplayed in that typical Nolan way, and Anne pulls it off...plus it's awesome how she's stretching her leg up as she says it.

The "hear me roar" line is more of a personal pet peeve. I've just always hated that line even when I was a kid for irrational reasons. Just feels unnecessarily over the top, but at least now I do get what they were going for with it.

Also, you have to keep in mind that Nolan was conscious of what came before. From the 60s show, to Pfieffer to even Halle Berry, there had been an abundance of Catwomen in pop culture and they all reveled in the "cat" motif. I think Nolan was wise to capitalize on the opportunity to focus on what hadn't been done yet in live action- the definitive portrayal of Selina Kyle.

I'm all for Pfieffer being an extremely engaging Catwoman and having more of a range of emotions to play with, but Anne's Selina was so much closer to nailing what I feel is the more timeless essence of Selina Kyle. A playful, tough as nails femme fetale who's the thief with a heart of gold. I think Anne had better "quiet" moments too, like when she's watching Bane beat the snot out of Batman, the look on her face after Stryver realizes the cops are coming, "don't be shy", etc. etc. I think it's all too easy to write Anne's version off as a cliche "action chick", but whenever I re-watch the film I can't help but notice all the little wonderful touches that make it such a great, nuanced performance.

 

[DACrowe]

Michelle has alot in her favour...

- She is required to hit many emotional highlights
- She is playing at least four separate personalities
- She was allowed to use her sexuality in a raw and powerful way
- She had a stunning, sexy costume that has become nothing short of iconic
- Her romance with Batman was much more intense and therefore more involving.

Plus, I think she is just a better actress all round.

Anne was good but she was playing a neutered version of the character (Yes Burton moulded her as a crazy *****... but at least he truly embraced the character of CATWOMAN unlike Nolan).

You see, I disagree. Nolan embraced the character. Burton embraced some of the superficialities and basic absurdities of the character while leaving everything else to create his own hot mess of brilliance.

If you prefer his character that is fine. But Nolan understood the Kyle of the comics much more.

 

[BatLobster]

I don't think Nolan shunned Catwoman's "cat"-ness any more than he shunned certain gimmicks of some of the other villains. Ra's' immortality, green suit and Laz pit, Joker's permawhite skin, Bane's venom, Scarecrow's hat and full costume, Two-Face's dual personalities etc. Anne's Catwoman just felt like she belonged in that world to me where everything was slightly toned down and modified to fit the story being told. I can understand some folks not liking that, but for me (and I've said this a thousand times) Nolan was able to really distill the essence of each character despite all tweaks and toning down that he did. Everything felt like a unified vision of a particular-Bat universe.

 

[JackWhite]

I don't think Nolan shunned Catwoman's "cat"-ness any more than he shunned certain gimmicks of some of the other villains. Ra's' immortality, green suit and Laz pit, Joker's permawhite skin, Bane's venom, Scarecrow's hat and full costume, Two-Face's dual personalities etc. Anne's Catwoman just felt like she belonged in that world to me where everything was slightly toned down and modified to fit the story being told. I can understand some folks not liking that, but for me (and I've said this a thousand times) Nolan was able to really distill the essence of each character despite all tweaks and toning down that he did. Everything felt like a unified vision of a particular-Bat universe.

I very much agree with this. Nolan got the spirit and essence of every villain right, pretty much to a T. Only villain that he didn't do justice was Talia, for obvious reasons.

 

[Bruce Malone]

Burton's catwoman was arguably as much a burton character creation as she was catwoman, i'm not saying that as a negative. However Nolan's catwoman was indeed closer to the modern catwoman that's been in place the last 25+ years or so.

I can see how some would have enjoyed the Burton catwoman more, however if the question is who made a better incarnation of the catwoman most of us know? It would be anne's catwoman.

I think all the super-natural elements of the Burton catwoman (which made up a large part of the character), take this version of the character out of the running for that question.

 

[regwec]

I think it is possible to interpret the supernatural elements overly literally. Catwoman certainly believes in them, and the audience is invited to believe in them, but I think they are an emanation of the Gothic, dream-like fairytale that Burton wove into the movie's fabric. In a similar fashion, I don't think The Penguin is a literal monster- it is instead the natural depiction of an ugly social outcast in this alternative world. Neither of these elements are, I think, any less faithful to the source material than The Joker wearing makeup. Both are an inevitable consequence of the different worlds that the different directors weave: Burton turned the colour up, Nolan turned it right down.

I should point out that the "resurrection" origin is once again "canon", at least prima facie.

This has been much criticised by some readers, but I think that is because they tend to insist on a literal interpretation of it. I would, instead, see it as symbolic: the mirror of the bat crashing through Bruce Wayne's window as he debates whether to let himself die. In both cases, the character is at their very lowest ebb: things can't go on the way they have. They face a choice between death and rebirth. By mirroring Batman's origin in Catwoman's, her status as a Batman "copy cat" is actually strengthened, and we begin to develop a sense of the psychological path that a character treads to enter that bizarre life.

As for the "hear me roar" line- it is an obvious tongue-in-cheek reference to the feminist themes with which Burton was playing. I can't find the origin of the quote, but it was a well worn mantra of the 1980s feminist movement.

 

[regwec]

If you prefer his character that is fine. But Nolan understood the Kyle of the comics much more.

Nolan didn't know much about the "Kyle of the comics", and had to be persuaded to include her. The result is, frankly, de minimis. She blends into his "grounded" world reasonably well, but I don't think a long term reader and fan of the comics could really be enthralled by it as a representation of the character.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

You see, I disagree. Nolan embraced the character. Burton embraced some of the superficialities and basic absurdities of the character while leaving everything else to create his own hot mess of brilliance.

If you prefer his character that is fine. But Nolan understood the Kyle of the comics much more.

I just feel Nolan's approach was, ''She's a conflicted theif... just give her realistic ears to shut the fans up''.

Not ONCE when I was watching the movie did I feel like I was experiencing CATWOMAN. Anne was good (shes always good)... but the interpretation was just so damn lacking for me I'll never fully embrace it.

Not to mention, I don't really care much for fidelity to the source material, just like the majority of the general public. Therefore I feel the part came across as a little generic in Nolan's world. In truth, I feel the next big-screen Catwoman has a better chance of being the definitive one.

Jack Nicholson was the definitive Joker... then Heath completely demolished him. No question in the eyes of the public.

Michelle Pfeiffer has been the definitive Catwoman for 20 years... Anne didn't come close to re-defining the character in the same way. She was good but not good enough.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Pfeiffer-Pfan nailed it.

 

[Brain Damage]

This has been much criticised by some readers, but I think that is because they tend to insist on a literal interpretation of it. I would, instead, see it as symbolic: the mirror of the bat crashing through Bruce Wayne's window as he debates whether to let himself die. In both cases, the character is at their very lowest ebb: things can't go on the way they have. They face a choice between death and rebirth. By mirroring Batman's origin in Catwoman's, her status as a Batman "copy cat" is actually strengthened, and we begin to develop a sense of the psychological path that a character treads to enter that bizarre life.

So agreed with this
I've always viewed the supernatural elements to Catwoman in Returns as symbolic, not literal. There is nothing in the film to definitively say she's got nine lives; at the end when Schreck is shooting her, none of those shots are kill shots. It's not like he shoots her directly in the face. So I always saw Selina as being someone with a ton of strength-of-will and a damn stubborn REFUSAL to die. The nine lives thing is a symbolic representation of that, to me. It doesn't make her a magical being.

 

[BatLobster]

Not ONCE when I was watching the movie did I feel like I was experiencing CATWOMAN.

Really? Not even once?

If that's your opinion, fair game. I just felt completely differently, and so did a lot of people. I think you're forgetting how much praise she's gotten and how many people cited her as their favorite part of the movie. Just because she didn't "redefine" the character doesn't mean she won't go down well in history and respectably sit alongside Pfeiffer, as well as Julie Numar, Lee Meriwether and Eartha Kitt. You also have to consider how many people bashed Anne's casting, bashed the costume, even bashed the use of Catwoman in the movie saying it was no use to do it again because Pfeiffer's was so good. Most of those people ate crow.

I liken Anne's turn as Catwoman to Bale's at Batman. For a lot of people, it's more definitive but that doesn't stop another very large group of people from still preferring Keaton in the role. And that's fine, we're blessed as fans to have two wonderful portrayals. Heath completely blowing Jack out of the water was a very rare, special thing. Not to mention, I think Pfeiffer's performance in Returns blows Jack's in 89 away in and of itself .

 

[OutRiddled]

Jack Nicholson was the definitive Joker... then Heath completely demolished him. No question in the eyes of the public.

Heath completely blowing Jack out of the water was a very rare, special thing.

Bah, in your opinions.

 

[The Joker]

I should point out that the "resurrection" origin is once again "canon", at least prima facie.

What comic is that from, reg?

Bah, in your opinions.

Mine too t:

 

[regwec]

It is from the recent Catwoman #0.

 

[NosfeRomas]

It shouldn't be cannon. why do they keep promoting poor writting and nonsense !

 

[regwec]

It shouldn't be cannon. why do they keep promoting poor writting and nonsense !

Irony.

 

[Anno_Domini]

It shouldn't be cannon. why do they keep promoting poor writting and nonsense !

Irony.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Spoiler

I think it is possible to interpret the supernatural elements overly literally. Catwoman certainly believes in them, and the audience is invited to believe in them, but I think they are an emanation of the Gothic, dream-like fairytale that Burton wove into the movie's fabric. In a similar fashion, I don't think The Penguin is a literal monster- it is instead the natural depiction of an ugly social outcast in this alternative world. Neither of these elements are, I think, any less faithful to the source material than The Joker wearing makeup. Both are an inevitable consequence of the different worlds that the different directors weave: Burton turned the colour up, Nolan turned it right down.

I should point out that the "resurrection" origin is once again "canon", at least prima facie.

This has been much criticised by some readers, but I think that is because they tend to insist on a literal interpretation of it. I would, instead, see it as symbolic: the mirror of the bat crashing through Bruce Wayne's window as he debates whether to let himself die. In both cases, the character is at their very lowest ebb: things can't go on the way they have. They face a choice between death and rebirth. By mirroring Batman's origin in Catwoman's, her status as a Batman "copy cat" is actually strengthened, and we begin to develop a sense of the psychological path that a character treads to enter that bizarre life.

As for the "hear me roar" line- it is an obvious tongue-in-cheek reference to the feminist themes with which Burton was playing. I can't find the origin of the quote, but it was a well worn mantra of the 1980s feminist movement.

Very nice posts. Also enjoyed reading PfiefferFan's posts on this page. You guys have nailed it I think.

 

[Snow Queen]

Nolan didn't know much about the "Kyle of the comics", and had to be persuaded to include her. The result is, frankly, de minimis. She blends into his "grounded" world reasonably well, but I don't think a long term reader and fan of the comics could really be enthralled by it as a representation of the character.

Not sure if this is what DACrowe meant but she may have been referring to Jonathan Nolan rather than Chris.

 

[regwec]

She's a she? Never knew that.