Another Person Shot While Looking for Help

[charl_huntress]

Who breaks into your house by knocking on the door? Unarmed and alone? That's some stretch of imagination to say he must have thought she was breaking in. And then he failed to even report an attempted break in or that he shot a would-be intruder in the face?

I can't see how you can believe that but you won't acknowledge just how cold blooded that all is so there is no point in repeating this again. I think others have been through it at least a dozen times and you still defend it.

He was asleep and heard a noise. He thought someone was breaking in. That's the point!!!!!! He thought it was someone breaking into his house!!!! What part of that don't you people see??? HE WAS SCARED! I get that the person who was in the accident was scared also, but SO WAS HE!!! Also, it seems the fact he didn't call the police indicates he was a cold blooded murderer, but maybe he was still just freaked out. Having known someone who did something comparable in not calling the cops, I can tell you that it can happen.

F.Y.I. the girl I knew didn't kill the person. She just ran away. I think she wasn't ready to face the consequences and wanted to pretend it didn't happen. Knowing this person I don't think she wanted to cover it up, I think she just wanted to act like it never happened. That, of course, was foolish and she DID learn the hard way.

What gets me about this most is ALL of you people seem to think he was categorically wrong, yet you don't even want to acknowledge that he thought someone was breaking into his house. For you superheroes it's just that he opened the door and shot a defenseless woman. While that is tragic and hard to swallow, it's not something I think this dude meant to do. Meaning she came to the door knocked, asked for help, and then got shot.

I think because she is black people are seeing this without trying to be objective. They are just convicting this guy in their mind. I can't get down with that.

 

[charl_huntress]

We still wouldn't even be here though if he didn't open the door to begin with.

And we would not be here if this woman had stayed in her car or with her car. Someone had called the cops already, but she was "disoriented" (I guess and ignored the advice of the bystander telling her she shouldn't leave).

Did your mother ever lose you in store? Did you not get that piece of valuable advice that says it's better to stay where you at then roam and "try" and get found. I guess NO ONE HERE EVER TOLD ANYONE ON THE HYPE THAT.

 

[Dispatch Ninja]

He was asleep and heard a noise. He thought someone was breaking in. That's the point!!!!!! He thought it was someone breaking into his house!!!! What part of that don't you people see??? HE WAS SCARED! I get that the person who was in the accident was scared also, but SO WAS HE!!! Also, it seems the fact he didn't call the police indicates he was a cold blooded murderer, but maybe he was still just freaked out. Having known someone who did something comparable in not calling the cops, I can tell you that it can happen.

F.Y.I. the girl I knew didn't kill the person. She just ran away. I think she wasn't ready to face the consequences and wanted to pretend it didn't happen. Knowing this person I don't think she wanted to cover it up, I think she just wanted to act like it never happened. That, of course, was foolish and she DID learn the hard way.

What gets me about this most is ALL of you people seem to think he was categorically wrong, yet you don't even want to acknowledge that he thought someone was breaking into his house. For you superheroes it's just that he opened the door and shot a defenseless woman. While that is tragic and hard to swallow, it's not something I think this dude meant to do. Meaning she came to the door knocked, asked for help, and then got shot.

I think because she is black people are seeing this without trying to be objective. They are just convicting this guy in their mind. I can't get down with that.

Why would he open the door for someone who he thought was trying to break into his house?

 

[charl_huntress]

Perhaps he was investigating and thought that was the prudent thing to do? Maybe he was actually trying to determine if it was an intruder and opened his door to see? Maybe he had dogs or animals and thought it was one of them? Maybe he was trying to access the situation by opening the door and then got scared because there was someone standing there who he already thought was trying to intrude!!!!!

My contention in this has always been...He thought it was an intruder or some trying to intrude for those who love semantics!!! Maybe he was actually trying to access what in the hell was going on and got scared because there was someone on his doorstep after he already thought someone was breaking in???

C'mon people...this can't be rocket science. You have to see this or your don't.

 

[Nathan]

And yet you don't realize that you've got that serious double standard going on. You give the man the benefit of the doubt, complete leniency, pretty much absolve him of any wrong doings, because everything that has happened, might have been a result of the fact that he was scared. And no one denies that the man might have been scared. And yes, scared people can do some stupid ****. But you won't admit that he handled the situation poorly, because how can anyone expect someone who's scared to follow any sort of protocol.

Which brings us to the 19 year old girl, who just got into a car accident. She gets nothing from you. Except you blame her for handling the situation poorly. Expecting her to keep a calm head, and have prepared a contingency plan for this very situation. She is supposed to be a pro in handling situations under distress, and at an inconvenient hour, she is supposed to wait to get help later, rather than sooner.

You are applying your whole personal experience into this scenario. The homeowner is just a poor guy, because you can relate to being scared, since you apparently build yourself a fortress. The girl, well, she simply wasn't the brightest according to your own words, because she probably didn't gather a 3rd of the experience that you have in your life, and simply didn't have a plan for this situation, and tried to look for help.

 

[Lantern Venom]

He was asleep and heard a noise. He thought someone was breaking in. That's the point!!!!!! He thought it was someone breaking into his house!!!! What part of that don't you people see??? HE WAS SCARED! I get that the person who was in the accident was scared also, but SO WAS HE!!! .

There is no justification for his response based on nothing but knocking. Unless there is some evidence that she was trying to break in or acting in a threating manner, his response is disproportionate.

 

[thalidomide]

RIP to the victim.

 

[SpideyFan866]

Now while I do think that her death was unnecessary, I don't think she should've been knocking on the door of a residence at 2 in the morning.

I understand she needed help, but you go to a store (In this case, something 24 hours) and ask for help, not someone's home. Better yet, just wait with the car until morning or wait until you see someone else you can ask for help, be it a ride to a gas station, home, or to use their cell phone.

IMO, though they severely mishandled the situation, the homeowner had some right to be frightened. I know I'd personally be suspicious if someone knocked on my door at that time. But even still, they shouldn't have gone to that extreme. At most, the cops shouldve been called. At least that way, she couldve gotten help after the situation was resolved.

Both were wrong with how they handled the situation, its just sad that someone had to die because of it.

 

[The Question]

What gets me about this most is ALL of you people seem to think he was categorically wrong, yet you don't even want to acknowledge that he thought someone was breaking into his house.

Of course he thought someone was breaking into the house. I don't think anyone here has denied the fact that he most likely thought that. Our whole point has been either:

A) Thinking that someone is breaking into your house because someone knocks on your door late at night is, in most circumstances, very unreasonably paranoid.

B) If there are other circumstances that make that fear warranted, he still handled the situation irresponsibly and did everything wrong (up to and including shooting a person in the face).

C) Both.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Now while I do think that her death was unnecessary, I don't think she should've been knocking on the door of a residence at 2 in the morning.

I understand she needed help, but you go to a store (In this case, something 24 hours) and ask for help, not someone's home. Better yet, just wait with the car until morning or wait until you see someone else you can ask for help, be it a ride to a gas station, home, or to use their cell phone.

IMO, though they severely mishandled the situation, the homeowner had some right to be frightened..

I don't understand what's so frightening about someone knocking on your door at night. People looking to break in aren't going to announce their intentions by knocking. If you are behind a locked door, you simply ask the person why they are there and/or tell them to go away. Unless the woman was doing something threatening that hasn't been reported, the guy had zero reason to go for his gun.

 

[Micromind]

If people still think there is nothing wrong with this "shoot first, ask questions later" approach, then such incidents will not stop.

People need to think before they act.

 

[thalidomide]

Screw shoot first, ask questions later. Shoot first then go back to sleep is what's in

 

[moviedoors]

What gets me about this most is ALL of you people seem to think he was categorically wrong

Of course he was categorically wrong! He ****ing shot an innocent person in the face!

 

[charl_huntress]

And yet you don't realize that you've got that serious double standard going on. You give the man the benefit of the doubt, complete leniency, pretty much absolve him of any wrong doings, because everything that has happened, might have been a result of the fact that he was scared. And no one denies that the man might have been scared. And yes, scared people can do some stupid ****. But you won't admit that he handled the situation poorly, because how can anyone expect someone who's scared to follow any sort of protocol.

There are pages and pages of people saying he had no right to be even be afraid. Please go back and read them. I think the crux of what has people so defensive with my stance is I believe the very FIRST mistake made by either party was HER leaving her car and knocking on doors at 2:30am. I say this for two reasons. It was safer and more logical to stay with the vehicle. Since we now know someone who was cogent was there with her at the time of the accident, and had already called the police, then that was the SAFEST and most prudent thing to do. Yet, she refused this very sage advice and left her car anyway. The other reason is knocking on doors that late at night is likely to be misinterpreted as an aggressive act because the person inside is likely asleep, and in that sort of situation they may not think you are just there looking for help. I point this out and for some reason people get ticked off and then I'm a victim blamer who has no heart. C'mon...

I have already said I think mistakes were made on both sides. Do I think the owner handled this absolutely correctly? No, I don't think he did, but I also understand that if he was scared and thought someone was breaking into to his house that he was very likely acting on instincts and was afraid.

I have now pointed out that the owner made some mistakes. Does that make the fact I also think the girl made some mistakes easier to swallow? Judging by this crowd...I doubt it!

Of course he thought someone was breaking into the house. I don't think anyone here has denied the fact that he most likely thought that. Our whole point has been either:

A) Thinking that someone is breaking into your house because someone knocks on your door late at night is, in most circumstances, very unreasonably paranoid.

B) If there are other circumstances that make that fear warranted, he still handled the situation irresponsibly and did everything wrong (up to and including shooting a person in the face).

C) Both.

********! There are pages and pages accusing the guy of cold blooded murder. Please go back and read them.

Also, it is not unreasonable paranoia to be afraid at that time of night. I know YOU would only be mildly annoyed though. And like I have said, he thought someone was breaking in. Yes, he should have called the cops at some point, but if you have never been in a situation like that which I gather most you haven't. It's not always your first instinct to call the police if you think there is an imminent threat of an attack.

I don't understand what's so frightening about someone knocking on your door at night. People looking to break in aren't going to announce their intentions by knocking. If you are behind a locked door, you simply ask the person why they are there and/or tell them to go away. Unless the woman was doing something threatening that hasn't been reported, the guy had zero reason to go for his gun.

HE WAS ASLEEP. He likely didn't think the noise were knocks, which is understandable at least to me because:

A. He was not expecting company
B. It's 2:30am and he's not expecting company
C. He was asleep, so he's really not expecting company.

 

[Asgard]

Now while I do think that her death was unnecessary, I don't think she should've been knocking on the door of a residence at 2 in the morning.

Why not? If she felt she needed help immediately why shouldnt she seek it?

I understand she needed help, but you go to a store (In this case, something 24 hours) and ask for help, not someone's home. Better yet, just wait with the car until morning or wait until you see someone else you can ask for help, be it a ride to a gas station, home, or to use their cell phone.

What if youre bleeding pretty badly without a cell phone and the closest place you can ask for help is a residence? You still wait in your car and hope you can make it till morning without bleeding to death?

IMO, though they severely mishandled the situation, the homeowner had some right to be frightened. I know I'd personally be suspicious if someone knocked on my door at that time. But even still, they shouldn't have gone to that extreme. At most, the cops shouldve been called. At least that way, she couldve gotten help after the situation was resolved.

He shouldnt have opened his door in the first place if he was so scared.

Both were wrong with how they handled the situation, its just sad that someone had to die because of it.

No, the only person in the wrong is the homeowner. The girl was hurt and needed help. She shouldnt expect to be shot in the face with a shotgun because she went looking for some. The worst that she should have been treated by the homeowner was a verbal warning to get off his/her premises and that he was armed and a phone call to the police seeking assistance from a potential home invader. All of which could have been done without opening the door.

There are pages and pages of people saying he had no right to be even be afraid. Please go back and read them. I think the crux of what has people so defensive with my stance is I believe the very FIRST mistake made by either party was HER leaving her car and knocking on doors at 2:30am. I say this for two reasons. It was safer and more logical to stay with the vehicle. Since we now know someone who was cogent was there with her at the time of the accident, and had already called the police, then that was the SAFEST and most prudent thing to do. Yet, she refused this very sage advice and left her car anyway. The other reason is knocking on doors that late at night is likely to be misinterpreted as an aggressive act because the person inside is likely asleep, and in that sort of situation they may not think you are just there looking for help. I point this out and for some reason people get ticked off and then I'm a victim blamer who has no heart. C'mon...

I have already said I think mistakes were made on both sides. Do I think the owner handled this absolutely correctly? No, I don't think he did, but I also understand that if he was scared and thought someone was breaking into to his house that he was very likely acting on instincts and was afraid.

I have now pointed out that the owner made some mistakes. Does that make the fact I also think the girl made some mistakes easier to swallow? Judging by this crowd...I doubt it!

I really cant believe youre still blaming a 19 year old girl for being shot in the face for absolutely nothing. Seriously its freaking mind boggling. You say she shouldnt have gotten out of her car and asked for help, that the smart thing to do was wait for the cops, but have you even taken into account that maybe she wasnt in the right frame of mind to do so? Maybe she hit her head pretty badly and wasnt exactly thinking as rationally as someone who hasnt been in a car accident. Is it still her fault then?

 

[charl_huntress]

I really cant believe youre still blaming a 19 year old girl for being shot in the face for absolutely nothing. Seriously its freaking mind boggling. You say she shouldnt have gotten out of her car and asked for help, that the smart thing to do was wait for the cops, but have you even taken into account that maybe she wasnt in the right frame of mind to do so? Maybe she hit her head pretty badly and wasnt exactly thinking as rationally as someone who hasnt been in a car accident. Is it still her fault then?

I am not blaming her. I am saying she made a poor choice. Just because she is dead doesn't absolve her of any damn responsibility in this matter. C'mon...

You can't have it both ways. Someone was there to help. That person had called the police and told her to stay. She was confused and walked off. Now, we have a scenario of a confused person outside someone's house late at night. Is that what you are saying? So if you are saying that then can you not see how perhaps the owner easily misinterpreted this "confused" person as someone trying to intrude.

 

[Asgard]

I am not blaming her. I am saying she made a poor choice. Just because she is dead doesn't absolve her of any damn responsibility in this matter. C'mon...

You can't have it both ways. Someone was there to help. That person had called the police and told her to stay. She was confused and walked off. Now, we have a scenario of a confused person outside someone's house late at night. Is that what you are saying? So if you are saying that then can you not see how perhaps the owner easily misinterpreted this "confused" person as someone trying to intrude.

You are blaming her. Youre saying that she had a hand in her being shot in the face because she went looking for help.

Renisha didnt call the police to report the accident so she either didnt have a cell phone or was not in the right frame of mind to do so. According to an eyewitness she was bleeding from the face and was muttering that she wanted to go home. Seems to me she was hurt and confused after the accident and not thinking rationally. If she wasnt thinking clearly and was confused after being in a car accident how can you still say she was at fault for not being able do the most rational thing and wait for the cops?

I said in a previous post that the homeowner didnt have to open his door to ascertain the situation OR to warn the girl that he was armed and that he was going to call the police. If he was as scared as youre making him out to have been, he would never have opened the door in the first place.

Like Ive been saying, the only person to blame for the girl's death is the guy that killed her. A person who's just been in an accident and apparently confused and not thinking straight shouldnt have any blame put on them for being killed for seeking help.

 

[charl_huntress]

Why would she go looking for help if help was already there?

If she was "confused" is it possible that her own impaired actions at the time may have caused someone to misinterpret what she was doing or why she was there in the first place?

If she was confused, was she even able to properly articulate these needs?

Did the homeowner understand the woman was seeking help?

Did he believe there was some threat posed?

These are questions I ask because I don't look at a situation like this as just black and white. Or like you do. For me, it's more like a chain of events where decisions are made by both parties. Both parties made mistakes IMO. I'm not disputing that, but apparently saying the girl made a mistake is wrong because you can't judge her actions at all, right? She's completely blameless in this whole scenario because she's the victim. This is in fact what ALL of you are saying and that's ********.

A person who's just been in an accident and apparently confused and not thinking straight shouldnt have any blame put on them for being killed for seeking help.

Really? Does this apply to every single scenario? Does a drunk confused person who crashed their car have no blame? I'm not saying she was drunk, but you can't really believe this is applicable to every situation.

 

[Asgard]

Why would she go looking for help if help was already there?

Police took 40 minutes to respond to the accident. By the time they arrived she was already gone.

If she was "confused" is it possible that her own impaired actions at the time may have caused someone to misinterpret what she was doing or why she was there in the first place?

If she was confused, was she even able to properly articulate these needs?

Did the homeowner understand the woman was seeking help?

Did he believe there was some threat posed?

Unless she posed a real demonstrable threat to the guy's life he had no right to shoot her. It doesnt matter if she was confused and couldnt articulate her needs properly or if he misinterpreted her as a potential home invader. And the potential home invader thing still sounds stupid. Why would you even open your door if youre afraid that the person on the other side is trying to break in?

These are questions I ask because I don't look at a situation like this as just black and white. Or like you do. For me, it's more like a chain of events where decisions are made by both parties. Both parties made mistakes IMO. I'm not disputing that, but apparently saying the girl made a mistake is wrong because you can't judge her actions at all, right? She's completely blameless in this whole scenario because she's the victim. This is in fact what ALL of you are saying and that's ********.

Youre saying she made the mistake of looking for help in the first place because she was hurt and in trouble. Thats the part thats so wrong about your take on the situation.

Really? Does this apply to every single scenario? Does a drunk confused person who crashed their car have no blame? I'm not saying she was drunk, but you can't really believe this is applicable to every situation.

If youre drunk and get into a car accident you should be found guilty of DUI and whatever charges that apply. I dont see how that same drunk person looking for help by knocking on someone's door should be blamed for being murdered if the guy on the other side decides to shoot him because he was scared.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Couple things:

The autopsy report...confirms she was shot in the face, supporting the idea that she was facing the homeowner.

Police have confirmed that McBride was shot on the porch but have not released details.

Cheryl Carpenter, the homeowner's lawyer, has said he was awakened about 4 a.m. by what sounded like "a person or persons" trying to enter his home.

"Nobody, including the police, the prosecutor or the public, has all the information yet."

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-renisha-mcbride-20131113,0,5934972.story

A couple things I'm taking away from this:

1) If the homeowner can be believed, she was not "knocking" on the door, but actively trying to gain entry - break into - his home. I don't care who you are, but if you are woken up at 4am to the sounds of someone trying to break into your home, you are going to assume the worst, and you would be totally justified in thinking so. (note: that is not the same as being justified in shooting someone). I think it is likely that, perhaps after her knocks didn't arouse a response, she assumed no one was home and choose to break in to find a phone. I can see this being deemed an "acceptable" action in the mind of someone confused and panicked.

2) If she was standing on the porch and shot in the face, that means that she and the homeowner faced each other and it is likely there was some sort of confrontation leading up to him firing his gun. Perhaps she didn't react in a way that displayed her innocence when confronted? Perhaps they argued. If she is confused with a lot of adrenaline going and trying to break in, its likely the homeowner made a not-farfetched (albeit horrifically wrong) assumption that this person meant to do harm. Conversely, she could have acted 100% appropriately and clearly explained her situation the best she could, but was at the mercy of a psychopath who wanted to "stand his ground". We don't know, but we need to know what happened in those moments leading to her death.

Being a victim does not negate ones actions that lead up to the event in which they become said victims. Sometimes, it IS the victims fault, but there is a major difference between acknowledging the mistakes/actions of the vicitm in order to understand what happened, and actually placing blame on them. It seems very few here understand this concept.

A perfect example of this is one I've told on these boards before during a similar conversation: several years ago my 17 year old cousin snuck out of her house and in an effort to buy beer for a party, she asked a stranger to buy her beer. This stranger then offered to take her to an ABC store. Security footage of her getting into the car is the last anyone saw her alive...long story short, she was raped and murdered. Who is to blame for her death? The scumbag who killed her, of course. But it must be said that she made a lot of stupid choices that night that ultimately lead to her death. This does not make her responsible for her death - she did not put the knife in that ****er's hand - but that fact does not negate the need to understand and acknowledge her actions.

In the same vein, we can - no, MUST - question what this poor girl did and why in order to fully understand all of the events leading up to her death. Being a victim does not magically wash one's mistakes and choices away. This pursuit does not mean we are placing blame on her, nor does it mean we are accepting the shooter's actions as justified; he shot her and she is dead. Those are the only facts we have right now, and nothing will change that, but that doesn't remove our responsibility to the Truth, whatever it may be. Allowing gut reaction and emotion to keep us ignorant of all the facts leading up to her death because of the mistaken belief that searching for those facts equates to blame of the victim is a disservice to the victim and allows for blinding ourselves to potential ways of avoiding similar situations in the future.

 

[Teelie]

That's all well and good except instead of calling the police at any point in this time he went back to bed making his attorney's claims sound like a pitiful defense against a man who shot first and didn't bother asking questions or informing anyone later.

So far nothing has come out in his favor. What reasonable excuse is there to shoot someone who was unarmed in the face then fail to call the police? Or is that just another innocent mistake? That even assumes his claim is accurate, that he didn't panic, that he didn't just fire at someone who was at his front door early in the morning and that for some reason he felt it more important to go back to bed than report an attempted break in and homocide.

Normally I'd like more facts before making a judgement but in this case no facts that have come out so far have shown this ending in any other way than a callous shooting of an innocent person seeking help.

 

[Hal_Jordan]

That's all well and good except instead of calling the police at any point in this time he went back to bed making his attorney's claims sound like a pitiful defense against a man who shot first and didn't bother asking questions or informing anyone later.

So far nothing has come out in his favor. What reasonable excuse is there to shoot someone who was unarmed in the face then fail to call the police? Or is that just another innocent mistake? That even assumes his claim is accurate, that he didn't panic, that he didn't just fire at someone who was at his front door early in the morning and that for some reason he felt it more important to go back to bed than report an attempted break in and homocide.

Normally I'd like more facts before making a judgement but in this case no facts that have come out so far have shown this ending in any other way than a callous shooting of an innocent person seeking help.

I think this is the crux of most peoples' arguments against the shooter. Even if you thought you shot a burglar, accidental or not, at the very least you call the police afterwards. And if you realize it truly was an accident after the fact, you would call an ambulance and then call the police. At least that's what a decent human being would do.

This guy just went back to bed like it was nothing. Now THAT is some serious irrational thinking. Even if you want to give him the benefit of the doubt about not calling the police before he "investigated the burglar," there is no excuse for him not calling police after the incident.

 

[Ant-manic]

Couple things:


In the same vein, we can - no, MUST - question what this poor girl did and why in order to fully understand all of the events leading up to her death. Being a victim does not magically wash one's mistakes and choices away. This pursuit does not mean we are placing blame on her, nor does it mean we are accepting the shooter's actions as justified; he shot her and she is dead. Those are the only facts we have right now, and nothing will change that, but that doesn't remove our responsibility to the Truth, whatever it may be. Allowing gut reaction and emotion to keep us ignorant of all the facts leading up to her death because of the mistaken belief that searching for those facts equates to blame of the victim is a disservice to the victim and allows for blinding ourselves to potential ways of avoiding similar situations in the future.

avoiding being black? avoid gun owners?

 

[Teelie]

Avoid assuming people will help you instead of shooting you in a time of need?

 

[the last son]

Just released the audio of the 911 call. I don't care, the shooter needs jail time.