Anybody feel bad for the N. Warriors and dislking Iron Man?

[Trask]

I dont think the registration act was much of a secret. The newsmen who "ambushed" Stark when he came out of the meeting in Washington do ask him about it so it cant have been much of a secret. Also you cant pass something like that under the table without the media finding out. I mean it is a huge act that would affect the whole world, I dont think you can sneak a thing like that into law even in the Marvel universe. Sure Stark found out about it before everyone else but to belive that no one else knows about it is just not possible.

Even if you were to assume that no one besides Stark found out about it, he still told the others about it, it is not something he kept to himself. He told the others of what could happen if they did not act before they allow the government to make all the rules, but they ignored him and was left to deal with it on his own.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

No one was trying to sneak it into passing. I think Trop was saying that the people who drafted the bill, before they actually presented it to Congress, wanted Tony's opinion on it since he's an ex-politician who still works closely with superheroes.

I don't remember Tony telling anyone other than Spider-Man about it at that early stage, either.

It's common knowledge now, and my impression is that everything has progressed really quickly. The bill went public, the Stamford tragedy occurred, the people got pissed, the registration act is being rushed through Congress as a reaction, and only now do Cap and all the other anti-registration heroes have the time to get their act together and actually dissent.

 

[Tropico]

No one was trying to sneak it into passing. I think Trop was saying that the people who drafted the bill, before they actually presented it to Congress, wanted Tony's opinion on it since he's an ex-politician who still works closely with superheroes.

I don't remember Tony telling anyone other than Spider-Man about it at that early stage, either.

It's common knowledge now, and my impression is that everything has progressed really quickly. The bill went public, the Stamford tragedy occurred, the people got pissed, the registration act is being rushed through Congress as a reaction, and only now do Cap and all the other anti-registration heroes have the time to get their act together and actually dissent.

Exactly. Apparently there was a draft of the bill running around since before Stamford, there were other things that had happened before Stamford like the Hulk/Vegas thing that had already made up the establishment's mind in regards to taking action on the vigilantes. BTW, if Tony was so open about it I wonder why he made Peter PROMISE him to back him up before showing him? I don't think it was public yet, I'd have to go back an read the first part of "Mr. Parker Goes to Washington" to see if I'm remembering correctly where Tony says to Peter that he has to keep what he's going to be shown to himself. As for the press being there, for all we know that was also part of Tony's plan. HE hired a super-villain, what's tipping off a couple of jounalists?

 

[roach]

In reality I think that Congress would have had hearings that had a lot more superheroes testifying that just Iron-man. Think about how long the hearing took place for steroids in baseball and nothing came of it then. Why didnt America's most revered superhero(Captain America) not get called to testify???? There should have been some serious debate before this thing got voted on.

 

[The Cleric]

i just want iron man to use a death ray on the world and BOOM!!! everybody's ass is gone!!! just kidding, i am bored

 

[Trask]

No one was trying to sneak it into passing. I think Trop was saying that the people who drafted the bill, before they actually presented it to Congress, wanted Tony's opinion on it since he's an ex-politician who still works closely with superheroes.

I don't remember Tony telling anyone other than Spider-Man about it at that early stage, either.

It's common knowledge now, and my impression is that everything has progressed really quickly. The bill went public, the Stamford tragedy occurred, the people got pissed, the registration act is being rushed through Congress as a reaction, and only now do Cap and all the other anti-registration heroes have the time to get their act together and actually dissent.

Tony told the members of the Illuminati even before he told Peter about the bill. Also in Amazing Spider-man 530 where Tony gives Peter the document on the registration act, it is shown that the media already knew about the act since they ask Stark if the registration act will be made into law. And since the press asking Stark that question was televised you have to accept the fact that this is not a secret. All this happened before the Stamford tragedy so you cant say that it was only Tony Stark that knew about it.

 

[Tropico]

Tony told the members of the Illuminati even before he told Peter about the bill. Also in Amazing Spider-man 530 where Tony gives Peter the document on the registration act, it is shown that the media already knew about the act since they ask Stark if the registration act will be made into law. And since the press asking Stark that question was televised you have to accept the fact that this is not a secret. All this happened before the Stamford tragedy so you cant say that it was only Tony Stark that knew about it.

See? Priviliged info. And you're using the Illuminati as an example? The Illuminati? Marvel's secret society? Tony and Reed are in favor of the SHRA, they have no reason to break it out to other people. Black Bolt's concern are his people and the same goes for Namor. Prof. X wasn't even there and the otehr person that was against was Dr. Strange who isn't a public person. Does it make your point that other people knew about it? Sure, but no one that could really do anything about it.

Why didn't anyone else do anything when it DID get out? I don't know, Peter himself says that he's been too busy to keep up with the news, it's conceivable that the same can be said for other people. I mean, I know the X-Men certainly had their hands full with all that's been happening. It's also possible that people thought "Oh, this is another Mutant Registration act thingy that won't come to pass".

 

[Trask]

See? Priviliged info. And you're using the Illuminati as an example? The Illuminati? Marvel's secret society? Tony and Reed are in favor of the SHRA, they have no reason to break it out to other people. Black Bolt's concern are his people and the same goes for Namor. Prof. X wasn't even there and the otehr person that was against was Dr. Strange who isn't a public person. Does it make your point that other people knew about it? Sure, but no one that could really do anything about it.

Why didn't anyone else do anything when it DID get out? I don't know, Peter himself says that he's been too busy to keep up with the news, it's conceivable that the same can be said for other people. I mean, I know the X-Men certainly had their hands full with all that's been happening. It's also possible that people thought "Oh, this is another Mutant Registration act thingy that won't come to pass".

Well I am sure Tony is also quite busy, I mean he has to run a business, work on inventions, be Iron Man, be Part of the New Avengers/Illuminati and he still makes time to go up against congress to have the registration act delayed or crushed on his own. My point is there was no one else that was doing anything to prevent the registration act (when there was a possibility of beating or delaying the act indefinatly) besides Tony Stark.

I can understand the X-Men being a bit busy after the whole HoM thing, but what about the rest of the heroes. They cant just ignore a legistlation that would make a huge impact on their life if it gets passed and then cry foul once it is passed and decide to ignore the law because they dont like it.

What do they hope to achieve in the end anyway? I mean I can understand if they decided to quit being super heroes because the government is asking too much, but what do they hope to gain by going underground? Are they going to wage a war against the whole of the US, and what happens if they win? Are they going to force the government to change the law at the "point of gun"? If Cap really wanted to make a change he should have hung up his costume and gone to the government to champion his side instead of waging war.

 

[Horrorfan]

I saw a wizard article highlighting the spats between cap and tony. Boy, tony is a jerk.

 

[Tropico]

Well I am sure Tony is also quite busy, I mean he has to run a business, work on inventions, be Iron Man, be Part of the New Avengers/Illuminati and he still makes time to go up against congress to have the registration act delayed or crushed on his own. My point is there was no one else that was doing anything to prevent the registration act (when there was a possibility of beating or delaying the act indefinatly) besides Tony Stark.

You know what, neither of us can speak as to why the rest of the heroes didn't speak up against the legislation, it was just written this way. It could be that they prefer to stay out of political issues and let the normal people rule themselves. It could be that they slacked off or weren't interested. It could be that Tony is meddling where he isn't supposed to be meddling, I don't know. Any of those cases could be true, but I can't say which one. But they did seem mighty surprised in that meeting in CW#1, didn't they? Maybe it was a small faux pas on Marvel's part or maybe it's not clear enough in which part of the timeline the meeting is supposed to be (I think it is, but there could be a small snafu there).

I can understand the X-Men being a bit busy after the whole HoM thing, but what about the rest of the heroes. They cant just ignore a legistlation that would make a huge impact on their life if it gets passed and then cry foul once it is passed and decide to ignore the law because they dont like it.

What do they hope to achieve in the end anyway? I mean I can understand if they decided to quit being super heroes because the government is asking too much, but what do they hope to gain by going underground? Are they going to wage a war against the whole of the US, and what happens if they win? Are they going to force the government to change the law at the "point of gun"? If Cap really wanted to make a change he should have hung up his costume and gone to the government to champion his side instead of waging war.

I haven't read CW#2 but if any of your arguments are based on that then you have an advantage over me. You're making out the heroes to be villains just because they choose not to side with the legislation. I think all your suggestions in this last paragraph are ridiculous and it makes it look as if you haven't read any comics or don't believe that these people are still heroes even when the world turns against them. What do they hope to achieve? I think it would be to show that even while hunted down by the government they still try to right the wrongs. Even if they look like thieves skulking around to stop a criminal they'll still try to do it because it's what they believe in. Even if it's now the govt. and villains against them they'll cling ever more tenaciously to their beliefs just to show them what they're REALLY made of.

 

[Artistsean]

Maybe its an attempt to make super heroes in Marvel Comics vigilantees again, less acceptable and not common place.

I like that the Goverment isn't just making them retire, they are sying we will train you and make you official SHEILD agents. And your secret identity and your family will have protection, but you have to work for us. And we will pay you for doing this job.
Probably those who registered will be forced to do the jobs the Government wants them to do, then those who registered will try to revolt and quite.

This could give marvel a few years of storylines.
or they will end it as quickly as they did with House of M, have some huge tragidy happen like Peter's family is killed or someones family like Reed Richard's children, and Tony and all the other heroes will see how wrong this registration is and fight against it with a total boycot or something until the Government gives up.

 

[Trask]

You know what, neither of us can speak as to why the rest of the heroes didn't speak up against the legislation, it was just written this way. It could be that they prefer to stay out of political issues and let the normal people rule themselves. It could be that they slacked off or weren't interested. It could be that Tony is meddling where he isn't supposed to be meddling, I don't know. Any of those cases could be true, but I can't say which one. But they did seem mighty surprised in that meeting in CW#1, didn't they? Maybe it was a small faux pas on Marvel's part or maybe it's not clear enough in which part of the timeline the meeting is supposed to be (I think it is, but there could be a small snafu there).

Some of them in CW#1 did seem surprised by the legistlation while others did not and saw it coming. As DD says "This has been building up for a long time. Stamford's just the straw that broke the camels back".

I haven't read CW#2 but if any of your arguments are based on that then you have an advantage over me. You're making out the heroes to be villains just because they choose not to side with the legislation. I think all your suggestions in this last paragraph are ridiculous and it makes it look as if you haven't read any comics or don't believe that these people are still heroes even when the world turns against them. What do they hope to achieve? I think it would be to show that even while hunted down by the government they still try to right the wrongs. Even if they look like thieves skulking around to stop a criminal they'll still try to do it because it's what they believe in. Even if it's now the govt. and villains against them they'll cling ever more tenaciously to their beliefs just to show them what they're REALLY made of.

I dont have a problem with heroes disagreeing with a legistlation, but there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. The problem I have is not with them standing up for what they belive but the method they use. I mean Cap going underground and leading a group of "outlaws" does not help anyone long term. All it does is escilate the violence until it leads to deaths on both sides.

If he really wanted to make some changes, what he should have done is the same thing Tony did, go public and seek support from the people to change the law. One thing that the "resistance" does not have and needs very badly is a voice to the public. Those pro legistlation have people like Stark and She-Hulk going on public Tv and news pushing thier sides agenda to the public to gain support, while all the resistance is doing is going underground and attacking the government.

The only way they can win this war is by

1) Gaining public support to change the law again

2) Using force and terror against the government to change the law

3) Waiting for something large to occure (like the Stamford event) that will force the goverment to change its stance.

Now since cap does not seem to be taking option 1 yet and I cant see him or the other heroes taking option 2 to the level that would be required, that leaves only option 3. If Cap does not soon start taking option 1 then I guess Marvel will probably use option 3 to settle the whole CW thing.

People love to see individuals go up against the government and come out victorious because of the whole David Vs Goliath vision they have in thier minds, but just because you go up against the government does not mean you are right to do so. I mean how can you champoin the law when you yourself are going against it.

Cap has just not thought this through (or I have not seen any indication that he has). As I have said he would have done better to hung up his costume and champion his side of the argument to the media, government and the people. I mean he is Captain America for gods sake, people would sit up and listen to what he has to say and he would gain a lot of support from different sides. It might take a while but in the long run it would be more effective than just going underground like criminals. He belives in his cause and he should not have to hide in the shadows but stand in the public light and convince others of his stance.

People dont go wage war on thier government every time they disagree with what the government does. I mean the X-Men did not wage war on the US government everytime they did something they did not agree with.

 

[Tropico]

Some of them in CW#1 did seem surprised by the legistlation while others did not and saw it coming. As DD says "This has been building up for a long time. Stamford's just the straw that broke the camels back".

Exactly, they read between the lines but the only ones who spoke about it like they knew what it was were Tony and Reed. I think Marvel bungled a bit there, but the story's been quite effective still.

I dont have a problem with heroes disagreeing with a legistlation, but there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. The problem I have is not with them standing up for what they belive but the method they use. I mean Cap going underground and leading a group of "outlaws"...>snip<

People love to see individuals go up against the government and come out victorious because of the whole David Vs Goliath vision they have in thier minds, but just because you go up against the government does not mean you are right to do so. I mean how can you champoin the law when you yourself are going against it.

Cap has just not thought this through (or I have not seen any indication that he has). As I have said he would have done better to hung up his costume and champion his side of the argument to the media, government and the people. I mean he is Captain America for gods sake, people would sit up and listen to what he has to say and he would gain a lot of support from different sides. It might take a while but in the long run it would be more effective than just going underground like criminals. He belives in his cause and he should not have to hide in the shadows but stand in the public light and convince others of his stance.

You're forgeting that Cap escaped SHIELD because he was going to be arrested and incarcerated for not being part of the "hero hunters". Remember that we agreed that Miss Hill jumped the gun? Cap didn't have a chance to do anything else. Well, he could've been incarcerated and then break out or have others break him out and make matters worse. I agree with you in that someone should speak for the 'anti' side. If Cap were to do it he'll be arrested and the way things are right now no one will be sticking up for him from the "normal" human side, I'd be willing to bet that people would instead condemn him for being a hero AND a fugitive. IMO, Cap being a spokeperson is about one of the worst things he could do. Unfortunately She-Hulk is (apparently) on the pro side and Matt Murdock's reputation is all shot to hell so I can't think of anyone with legal expertise or some kind of credibility to be a spokeperson.

People dont go wage war on thier government every time they disagree with what the government does. I mean the X-Men did not wage war on the US government everytime they did something they did not agree with.

Again, if it's stated in CW#2 that the anti side is going to wage war you have me at a disadvantage. If it's you blaming the anti side again instead of seeing that BOTH sides are resposible for what's happening or will happen. then I'd simply see it as bias.

And, no, the X-Men didn't wage war on the U.S. government, the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants and Magneto have. The X-Men HAVE shut down (DESTROYED) Sentinel bases in South America and other parts of the world. Technically not the U.S., but they HAVE fought and destroyed what was arguably US property. And right now the X-Men are in a very bad position to do anything at all.

 

[Slim31]

I don't feel bad at all, bout time Marvel cleans house. They reduced the mutant population which was also a good move. As for Ironman, I've always hated this guy I just hope Captain America whips his butt. What I really can't wait is for the Hulk to come back and get his revenge.

 

[Dread]

You definately need to read CIVIL WAR #2, Tropicko. Even if some bits may be irritating. Then this debate'll really get interesting.

 

[Tropico]

I know, I know! It just might be a couple of days before I can do so.

 

[Trask]

Exactly, they read between the lines but the only ones who spoke about it like they knew what it was were Tony and Reed. I think Marvel bungled a bit there, but the story's been quite effective still.

As I have mentioned already in Amazing Spider-man #530 questions about the registration acts were brought up on the news. Also in that same comic book Reed and Sue are shown to be watching that news, so it is fair to bet they also know about it beforehand. The only way I can see the other heroes not having heard anything about it would be due to lack of interested or not watching/reading the news.

You're forgeting that Cap escaped SHIELD because he was going to be arrested and incarcerated for not being part of the "hero hunters". Remember that we agreed that Miss Hill jumped the gun? Cap didn't have a chance to do anything else. Well, he could've been incarcerated and then break out or have others break him out and make matters worse. I agree with you in that someone should speak for the 'anti' side. If Cap were to do it he'll be arrested and the way things are right now no one will be sticking up for him from the "normal" human side, I'd be willing to bet that people would instead condemn him for being a hero AND a fugitive. IMO, Cap being a spokeperson is about one of the worst things he could do. Unfortunately She-Hulk is (apparently) on the pro side and Matt Murdock's reputation is all shot to hell so I can't think of anyone with legal expertise or some kind of credibility to be a spokeperson.

Well he could have done a number of things differently.

1) He could have announced his retirment as Cap America and said he would not hunt them down, and if they arrest him I am sure Tony and other heroes would have raised so much noise that the media would catch on to it very quickly. And the government would not stand for Agent Hill arresting him once he has quit being Cap America, all that would do is show other heroes that they dont have the option to quit.

2) Once he has escaped the SHIELD carrier he could have gone to the media and explained the whole thing and gotten himself a lawyer. SHIELD had no right to arrest him at that time and if he announces his retirment from the costume and the reason he is retiring (to champion anti-registration in the public light) to the media, I dont think SHIELD would arrest him since again it would just be bad publicity for pro-registration groups.

3) He could still take a reporter and cameraman to one of thier hideouts so that he can tell his story to the world.

The problem with Cap is, from what I have seen of him, he is not much of a forward thinker. Dont get me wrong I am not saying he is dumb or an ediot but when it comes to the public/media and politics he has very little experience (I am hoping Fury will guide him in this areas). What Cap is good at is getting things done and inspiring others to his cause.

Again, if it's stated in CW#2 that the anti side is going to wage war you have me at a disadvantage. If it's you blaming the anti side again instead of seeing that BOTH sides are resposible for what's happening or will happen. then I'd simply see it as bias.

Spoiler

Cap and Falcon break out the young avengers once they are arrested, after the act has been made into law, and they break it. And it looks like he is already recruiting others to join his group. It is not made very clear what he intends to do with this group he is creating but I dont think it is to sit around and reminis about old times. Since Cap and his group where the first Superheroes to strike and the fact that they are attacking a sanctioned government organisation, inforcing the law, I see it as them declaring war on the government, or at the very least breaking a number of laws.

And, no, the X-Men didn't wage war on the U.S. government, the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants and Magneto have. The X-Men HAVE shut down (DESTROYED) Sentinel bases in South America and other parts of the world. Technically not the U.S., but they HAVE fought and destroyed what was arguably US property. And right now the X-Men are in a very bad position to do anything at all.

You cant exactly blame the X-Men for what the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants and Magneto does. That is like blaming Cap and SHIELD for what HYDRA does. As for the X-Men distroying Sentinel bases in South America and other parts of the world, correct me if I am wrong but most of those invovled some sort of story where those invovled with the Sentinel were either rouge agencies/individuals or out of control/crazy Sentinels or some kind out outside force influencing the program. X-Men have never openly (to my knowledge) gone up against the government over a legistlation that has been made into a law.

 

[Artistsean]

spoiler

I don't feel bad for Tony anymore, getting Spider-Man to reveal his identity to the world.

Has Tony revealed his Identity to the world already?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, he did it in Frontline #1.

 

[Tropico]

Yes, he did in Civil War: Frontline #1. And said that any hero who registered and didn't reveal their I.D. to the whole world instead of just the govt. is a hypocrite.


Damns youse, Corpse!

 

[MajinShenron]

Has Tony revealed his Identity to the world already?

He did in Front Lines.

 

[Artistsean]

Now see, I don't get that. Whats the purpose of revealing your identity to the entire world? I can undertand saying you need to reveal it to SHEILD and the government, thats like revealing the name of a undercover agent on live TV.
Why would they be hypocrits?

 

[Tropico]

Because if what you're doing is right, you're proud of what you do, then you shouldn't have anything to hide. By consequence, your secret ID shouldn't be secret. Just in case you weren't aware of it, Mary Jane and Aunt May also told Peter to reveal his ID to teh public, Peter was about ready to run away and go underground and they convinced him to stand his ground because they felt he didn't have anything to hide.

 

[Trask]

spoiler

I don't feel bad for Tony anymore, getting Spider-Man to reveal his identity to the world.

Has Tony revealed his Identity to the world already?

For the love of god Tony did not get Spider-Man to reveal his ID to the world. That honor goes to Aunt May and Mary Jane. All Tony did was tell Peter that he cant have Peter Parker working for him unless Spider Man registers, nothing more.

Yes, he did in Civil War: Frontline #1. And said that any hero who registered and didn't reveal their I.D. to the whole world instead of just the govt. is a hypocrite.


Damns youse, Corpse!

Hmmmm I must have missed out the part where he said anyone who does not reveal their ID to the public is a hypocrite. Hold on....

*Goes to fetch copy of Civil War: Frontline #1*

Ok re-read the book and there is nowhere in that speech where he says that those who do not reveal thier I.D to the public but register are hypocrites. In fact he does say that the act does not ask for heroes to reveal their I.D to the public.

 

[Tropico]

You're absolutely right. He says that HE would be a hypocrite if he didn't. I'm not the only one to make that mistake, though. It's probably because we're projecting his words out to the others like the media would.