Are DC films held to a different, higher standard?

[Steamteck]

I wonder why Superman Returns wasn't a massive success, then.

It missed the mark also IMO. Just not in away that angered some folks I guess. Deadbeat Dad Supers apparently wasn't enough to get people up in arms. The rest was just water down Donner.

 

[BH/HHH]

It missed the mark also IMO. Just not in away that angered some folks I guess. Deadbeat Dad Supers apparently wasn't enough to get people up in arms. The rest was just water down Donner.

That plane sequence was incredible though

 

[Steamteck]

That plane sequence was incredible though

Yes, took ones of my favorite TAS sequences and did it in wonderful live action. That scene made me excited for the rest of the film which just didn't live up to it IMO.

 

[BH/HHH]

Yes, took ones of my favorite TAS sequences and did it in wonderful live action. That scene made me excited for the rest of the film which just didn't live up to it IMO.

Yeah that's the big problem the most exciting scene in the film happens just under halfway and the film never excels beyond that. That's actually a common theme I've noticed with Bryan Singer films.

 

[The Joker]

I've said this many times in the past....and I will say it many times in the future.....


This is a discussion site. All view points can be discussed. NOT just the ones you want to be discussed.

That means that sometimes people will discuss things that you don't agree with.

Disagreeing with what someone says....does NOT make them wrong.

Someone giving an OPINION that differs from yours is NOT an attack against you.

People will NOT be infracted because they do not share your OPINION.

People who are uncivil and call other people names and act offensive WILL be infracted.

When people STOP discussing the topic of a thread and instead turn that thread into a lets discuss and complain about other posters thread......then yes, it will be closed.

I have never in my life seen so much childish snark. Good grief, if you cannot have a mature discussion without resorting to snarky comments about a poster or snarky retorts without any kind of discussion....OR.....comment without whining about how unfair people are being to your favorite movie...THEN DON'T DISCUSS IT. Because this is not discussion it is tit for tat and it needs to stop. If I deleted every post that was not whining about unfair treatment, or every post that was simply a snarky post trying to be funny with absolutely no substance to it....there would be very few posts left in this thread.

Seriously, either discuss the topic without backhandedly slamming each other and actually discuss what you think about the topic.....if that doesn't happen, the thread will be closed.

We do not have time to hold hands here...

Unfortunately as series a films featuring much beloved characters has been created that in many fans eyes have not captured the essence of who these characters are. Whether you like it or not people are going to have strong feelings when they feel characters they love have been done an injustice too, and a superhero forums is exactly where they are likely to talk about their displeasure. You can't expect people to simply walk away from what they love. They want to talk about it, be angry at it, and yes even mock these movies, because they want what's best for the characters they like.

Thank you

 

[Patchwork Man]

It missed the mark also IMO. Just not in away that angered some folks I guess. Deadbeat Dad Supers apparently wasn't enough to get people up in arms. The rest was just water down Donner.

It was. Singer said, what was it, he made it for the "Prada crowd"? I found that amusing. So then we get a Superman movie made for the CBM crowd, and it seems like the majority of opinions on a number of sites are overwhelmingly negative. I don't get it.

That plane sequence was incredible though

Yeah that's the big problem the most exciting scene in the film happens just under halfway and the film never excels beyond that. That's actually a common theme I've noticed with Bryan Singer films.

After the plane sequence, we were treated to a battle (evidently a very expensive one, haha) between Superman and a rock pyramid. The latter didn't get any punches in. t:

 

[DrCosmic]

It was. Singer said, what was it, he made it for the "Prada crowd"? I found that amusing. So then we get a Superman movie made for the CBM crowd, and it seems like the majority of opinions on a number of site are overwhelmingly negative. I don't get it.

I don't think we actually did. We got a film that was made to upend the typical CBM, or at best, cater to fans of TDK specifically, another movie not made for the CBM crowd.

The difference is that these characters already mean something in our culture and the DCEU doesn't respect that. It's like making Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter unironically. Some people would love it, but the overwhelming response from people who have been hearing about one kind of Abe Lincoln their whole life would be negative.

Also... to theme Superman like Batman and then bring Batman in and hinge a movie on their contrast is just poor writing and poor planning.

 

[BestGirl]

If by "Superman movie made to cater to the CBM crowd" you mean BVS, then fanboys were still negative because it wasn't that good of a movie. Movies don't get points just for trying.

 

[Patchwork Man]

That is your opinion, and not one that everyone shares (which goes without saying). "Fanboys were negative," yes. All fanboys — no.

 

[BestGirl]

You're the one who said, "It seems like the majority of opinions on a number of site are overwhelmingly negative".

 

[Patchwork Man]

You're the one who said, "It seems like the majority of opinions on a number of site are overwhelmingly negative".

A handful of message boards do not represent all fans.
​

 

[writer0327]

That plane sequence was incredible though

It epitomized Superman perfectly. And the nod to the original film was simply incredible.

 

[BestGirl]

I was responding to this post of yours:

It was. Singer said, what was it, he made it for the "Prada crowd"? I found that amusing. So then we get a Superman movie made for the CBM crowd, and it seems like the majority of opinions on a number of sites are overwhelmingly negative. I don't get it.

I'm trying to explain to you why the fanboys on a handful of message boards don't like BVS. You don't get bonus points for recreating comic book panels. The movie has to be good.

 

[MbJ]

What's funny is the go to defense has been that the movie was made by the fans, for the fans, but by and large some of the people I've seen be most critical of it are actual fans of the comics.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

What's funny is the go to defense has been that the movie was made by the fans, for the fans, but by and large some of the people I've seen be most critical of it are actual fans of the comics.

You don't make the character changes they made to appeal to the fans. If they thought fans wanted a story based around Batman plotting to murder someone, after years of fans complaining about Batman killing in the Burton films, then WB are dumb and deaf beyond belief.

 

[MadVillainy]

Kinda OT: Why do you guys think the live-action Batman films seem to have a problem with him not killing? It seems weird even in the Batman films i like that he still breaks a very important part of the character

And I know some might say "well it's a stupid rule anyway" but it's so ingrained in the character and such a huge part of what/who he is, it seems weird that the movies don't seem to get that.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I think Nolan got it well enough. His actions resulted in deaths a couple of times when he had no other choice in order to save human lives, but Batman not willing to execute or murder people plays a big role in the trilogy, especially the first two films.

 

[MadVillainy]

"but I don't have to save you"
Badass scene but come on... He basically killed him. Or fine it was "manslaughter"

And then blowing up that whole compound for sure resulted in some deaths (speaking of which whatever happened to the guy Bruce refused to kill?) was it ever shown if he made it out of the explosion. Or if he did made it off the mountain?)

But even in the comics (yes I understand that a movie will not be the exact same as the comic) Batman has been put in these no win situations where it seemed he had no other choice but he still came out without murdering or committing manslaughter

Idk if I was writing a Batman story why I would even put him in a situation where he had to kill to save human lives. Even on the Daredevil show he hasn't killed yet has he? And he definitely has been in situations where killing would've been justifiable

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The guy Bruce refused to kill was shown running away, which was what the ninjas should have done. That was their own fault. I'm not a fan of the Ra's scene on the train either, but leaving him in the mess he made isn't quite the same thing as killing him himself.

As for Daredevil, he hasn't actually killed someone, but there have been cases where his actions COULD have resulted in death, such as when he throws that goon off the roof early in the first season and he ends up in intensive care. But much like the Nolan films, Matt not murdering criminals has become a big part of the show and specifically the source of his conflict with Castle and Stick.

You can't avoid all possibility of death, otherwise there would be conflict. Something as simple as punching a guy in the head has the potential to kill him, even if unlikely.

 

[MadVillainy]

I still think the "oh well he didn't kill him directly" argument to be not much better than what Snyder said in order to try and defend his Batman. And the ninjas shouldve run defense is weird

Again Batman has been in fights in other media where he could leave his enemy to die but he tries to save them. The enemies choose death themselves. So why do live action directors have Batman kill, execute, manslaughter.


As for the Daredevil thing, Daredevil didn't throw the guy off the roof with the intention to kill him so that's a completely different thing. Daredevil (and Batman) are calculating in how they attack and don't do stuff like that when they know they can kill someone

EDIT: Actually rewatching the scene the man Bruce refuses to kill isn't really shown running away as much as being pushed to the side. And as I said he probably can't make it down the mountain. And while the other League members are shown trying to get away a few are still shown being blown up, being caught in an explosion, or whatever. Put that's just nitpicking on my part

 

[The Joker]

The ninjas in the monastery, Bruce created a distraction to escape. He didn't create an inescapable death trap otherwise he'd be dead himself. He saved the one person who was incapable of escaping and saving himself; Ra's. The others chose to stay and try and fight him.

Ra's smashed the brakes on the train and sealed his own fate. You can argue Batman was morally wrong not to save him, but he wasn't responsible for Ra's' fate. It was the reverse of the monastery situation where this time Ra's was responsible for the dangerous situation, and Bruce chose not to save him because he was in his own self made death trap.

 

[MadVillainy]

As I've said, villains have been hoisted by their own petards and Batman has still tried to save them. That's who he is.

So "well it was Ra's fault he was in the situation in the first place" defense doesn't hold true to me. To me a situation where that defense makes sense is like in the Spider-Man comics or the first Spider-Man movie where Goblin impaled himself with his own glider.

And in the BB scene, as soon as they realize the place is exploding they all run to leave. They didn't stay and try and fight him when they realize the place was exploding. They chose to run away and a couple of them were still killed. Probably including the guy he was trying to protect who was tied up

 

[The Joker]

That's a different argument. Batman has left criminals to die, e.g.

That's not the same as him directly killing them. As for the BB scene they do not run away when they realize the place is exploding. They draw their swords, the fake Ra's tells them to back off, and then begins attacking Bruce. The others stay right where they are and get blown every which way.

 

[MadVillainy]

That's a different argument. Batman has left criminals to die, e.g.

That's not the same as him directly killing them. As for the BB scene they do not run away when they realize the place is exploding. They draw their swords, the fake Ra's tells them to back off, and then begins attacking Bruce. The others stay right where they are and get blown every which way.

I still think the not saving them vs killing them is splitting hairs. Is he murdering them no but he's still causing them to die. It's the murder vs manslaughter thing. And the way Batman is set up in a majority of his stories, at leas the ones Ive read/seen he wouldn't even commit manslaughter or "not save them"

Watch the scene on YT. They draw their swords, small explosion, Fake Ras says wait (or something like that), big building shaking explosion, Then they scramble. That scene to me, while I love BB, if someone is gonna criticize BvS Batman they have to criticize scenes like that to

 

[The Joker]

You're only murdering someone if you are the intentional cause of their death. If you don't save someone from being run over by a car that doesn't mean you murdered them. Unless you were driving the car, or made sure they were standing in front of the car in some way with no way of escape.

You can make an argument it was morally wrong of Batman not to save him, but he wasn't the instrument of Ra's' death, and Batman has done this before in the comics. Batman's code is not to be a murderer. He is not breaking that code.

I've seen the BB scene a bazillion times. I know what happens. Those ninjas had their chance to scram to safety, and they didn't. If it was such a lethal trap then Bruce, fake Ra's, and real Ra's would have been blown to smithereens, too.

You can't compare Batman blowing people away in his Batwing, or plowing them down with his Batmobile in BvS to this. People can see the difference. I didn't see the likes of Kevin Conroy speaking out in 2005, 2008, or 2012 about Batman killing making him uncomfortable like he did for Batfleck in BvS;

http://batman-news.com/2016/08/16/kevin-conroy-ben-affleck-batman-killing/