Are people in the Marvel Universe stupider and more violent?

My guess as a non-criminal is that the easy road is always the more tempting. The threat of punishment only exists as an abstract concept that may or may not happen while material desires are closer to home and performing the crime is so easy.
 
You're right Elijya, and I have thought about this a lot.

One thing I put this down to, is the sheer volume of comics out there now.

Back in the day, people wouldn't buy that many comics in one go. And when Stan Lee created the 'universe' aspect to Marvel, he did books like Spider-Man in real time. So when Spider-Man and FF went parralell, it kinda made sense if they were in real time.

Things happened in different places, (sometimes galaxies,) so the crimes in the MU that were regular and street level weren't that many, if the books were supposed to be coming out in real time.

Eventually, as times slowed down, and more titles began, this had to be thrown out to a degree. They needed action to keep the readers attention, and for point of story. And at the same time, they couldn't assume various readers would buy various Marvel charachter. They could get one person following 2, or 3 charachters at best. So, they had to throw away this real world aspect naturally.

They couldn't expect people to buy ALL their books, and be like, okay, a heist happened in Captain America and the FF this month, so realistically, no heists should happen in other Marvel books as this doesn't happen realistically in NYC.

After the death of Gwen Stacy, and the end of the silver age, writers were now open to deal with death and darker issues. America was ready for this too. This opened the gates to darker, and more violent stories being the trend. During this time, more and more charachters are being created, and now with darker tones, and more experimental stories. This, in addition to the graphic novel, made comic universes go kinda nuts with the crime. When the graphic novel came out in book stores, it was now very apparent that people who don't pick up single issues from comic stores will occasionally pick up a trade based upon some sort of reccomendation.

Now a lot of people won't care if it's realistic crime or violence throughout a given universe, they occasionally pick up a trade, and that's the universe to them. That one charachter, his/her world in that trade, and crime in it, is the crime that happens in that universe. It ends up becoming like the golden age where charachters worlds aren't connected.

But to fanpeople like us, that collect the various books, know the worlds are connected, and see the references. And to us, the violence ends up becoming quite frankly, ludicrous.

Hope that makes sense, I think I just gave myself a headache! Lol! Personally, I just wish the crime became a bit more realistic, as it takes away from the larger stories
 
Wolverazio said:
Punishment. Herr Logan had a very well thought out response but it exists solely for punishment. Same reason prison sentences began, not to reform the criminals or act as a deterrant...just to punish.

Though I will leave my own views on the death penalty out of this.

And I can't even try to come up with a good reason why the crooks are so persistent. Sorry.
Thanks, bub. :up:

The last philosophy class I took put the death penalty under a microscope, and I was completely shocked that incapacitation was a sub-division of another major purpose of the death penalty. I honestly can't even remember what that was under, because I reject that inferior way of thinking wholeheartedly. Incapacitation is the one and only purpose of the death penalty that can never be questioned by intelligent people. Dead is dead. Also, prison sentences supposedly act as incapacitation a well, although not nearly as effectively. For one thing, prisoners still can hurt other prisoners while behind bars, and they also tend to get out of prison as fast as the system can push them out. There truly is no such thing as "life without parole," unless you're talking about a high-profile assassination case or serial murderers.

In my ideal criminal justice system, most seriously violent offenders would either be put to death in a humane manner (painless lethal injection, a shot in the head or the guillotine, rather than something cruel like the electric chair or a lethal injection designed to cause suffering in the last moments), or put in life-long prison colonies that are completely cut off from society, where they have no access to e-mail (outside a limited intranet) or phone books or anything they could use to harass the law-abiding population. They would have mail priviledges, but closely monitored. There would be no "reasonable expectation of privacy" for convicted dangerous humans, and the slightest chance that a criminal could be sending out a message designed to get someone hurt is enough to justify reading their in-coming and out-going mail. Any prison staff that would use this or any other power and knowledge over prisoners for nefarious purposes isn't fit to be part of the system. Prisoners would spend their days working a reasonable number of hours, producing products or items used by both themselves and the legal population, but only items that can't be dangerously flawed. License plates, as cliche as that is, are probably a good example, since it's not a part of the car that could go wrong and get someone hurt. That's kind of what I'm talking about. These prisoners would essentially earn their right to stay alive by working, as I don't believe it's right to spend society's taxes on keeping dangerous animals alive.

The prison colonies would not be designed to be cruel, horrific places. Cruelty in general hurts the entire species and should not be officially justified. Institutionalized cruelty is despicable, because it is not productive and makes things worse, so the entire concept of "punishment" should be abolished from the system. I am one of the most vengeance-minded people you would ever meet, so understand me when I say all this; a person has a right to want to be cruel to others for personal gratification, but the government should never encourage that behavior and act it out on anyone. Neither prison nor death need to be instruments of punishment. The government's role should be to protect the people, and cruelty and punishment does not do that at all. If a dog bites a person who isn't part of the household, they are often put to death. A dog with rabies is always put to death. Is that punishment? No, it's for society's protection. Ignorant, naive people seem to think that a human should be treated more leniently than a dog in this kind of situation, but the undisputable fact of the matter is that humans are thousands of times more dangerous than any dog, and that's the only thing that matters. Death comes to us all and can be kept at bay to a certain degree only so long. Joy and pain, however, are far more controllable, and since violent offenders bring more pain than joy to law-abiding citizens, they should be removed as a threat for the greater good.

The only way a prisoner would ever leave these colonies and rejoin society is if they pass psychiatric tests specifically designed to judge how they will act in the real world, and the idea that a "model prisoner" is a good candidate for parole will be forever aboloshed. It's unspeakable amoral for shrinks, parole board members and wardens and whoever else to suggest it's okay to let a dangerous animal back into the population simply because they have behaved themselves in a prison environment. I don't think I should have to explain why that is, and anyone who would argue that is a piece of trash. I'll explain for those who don't understand, but I won't dignify an argument, because I don't talk to people who would rather see innocent people put at risk than read a book on psychopathic criminals.

The prison colonies would mostly not be for reform or rehabilitation, but there would be institutions that would attempt to rehabilitate anyone the system deems likely to be "fixed" in a reasonable amount of time and at a reasonable cost. Again, I don't believe in spending money that could go to the purpose of socialized medicine and education should go to keeping a miserable killer or rapist alive is ever justified. This applies to the insane and mentally deficient as well. Intent matters to a certain extent, but the real heart of the matter is whether a person is dangerous or not. If it's a psychotic condition that can be controlled through medication (such as schizophrenia), then that's a potentially rehabitable person or at least a controllable one.

The overall basis for all of this is utilitarianism-- the highest amount of pleasure for the highest amount of people in the long term. This stems from something called "hedonic utilitarianism," which is not to be confused with "hedonism." In it's purest form, hedonic utilitarianism is ridiculous, because there's no such unit of measurement for pleasure such as a "hedon" (I'm not kidding, there was a guy who came up with that). Also, personal priorities for individuals should not be based on the highest number of people in all situations. Family and loved ones come first, then the highest number of people. That's for individuals, though. The government should be concerned with the numbers, and if they're doing a good enough job, citizens won't have to make too many huge decisions regarding the welfare of "the people" a opposed to their people.

The problem with a benevolent dictator is not the person's own motivations or ideas. But, if you were to accomplish all this..how can you guarantee that whatever filled the vacuum of power after your death would continue on with these "good happy safe" laws? Instead of just abusing the system for their own personal gain?

Realistically, there is no way to guarantee that. The best I could do is carefully screen everyone that is part of my government while in power and bring in new, younger people (because they would have been indocrinated in utilitarian, benevolent ways of thinking, and if I were dictator I'd be alive a long time 'cause I get good health coverage) that are deemed suitable to take care of the people.

Again, V would not like me very much and would surely rebel against me, but I don't and would not implement an agenda that strictly forbids creativity and would certainly not descriminate based on meaningless categories such as "race" or sexual orientation and so forth.
Religion, however, is a different matter. People act like different religions should be accepted as if they were "race" and ethnicity categories. They aren't. Ideas and thoughts and intent actually matter, and therefore religion would have to be kept under control. Again, what people do in their own homes when it doesn't hurt anybody should be their own business (not that I wouldn't be spying on people once in a while, since that's the only way you can make sure it stays harmless), but when it affects other people, it better be benevolent. Most "mainstream" religious practices would be permitted, since snakehandlers and honor killings aren't the usual religious fare, but if people used their "beliefs" as an excuse to hurt anyone, they'd be sentenced to death as soon as guilt was proven. If someone commits an "honor killing," they will be executed as soon as possible, since that's the kind of psychosis that not even medication can effectively treat without leaving someone nothing more than a financial liability. Same thing with bombing abortion clinics and so forth (and yes, abortion would be completely, unequivocally legalized throughout the entire jurisdiction of this government, and doctors would still be required to learn how to do them, although they wouldn't be forced to perform them).

Ah yes, that reminds me; people would need licenses to have children. The smaller the population, the better the chances of keeping it safe and happy. The less unfit parents and screwed up kids, the less criminals crowding the colonies and temporary prisons (for lesser crimes that require probation to test their rehabilitation potential). The government would fund drug stores all over the jurisdiction that provide free birth control products (with doctor's prescription if it's medication as opposed to condoms, etc.) and comprehensive sex education would be required in all schools. Ah yes, I forgot to mention, all schools would be public schools, reformed to teach kids how to be decent people and not end up in a courtroom where they're given the choice to either live in a prison colony for the rest of their lives or be killed quickly and as painlessly as possible very shortly. Private schools would be a detriment to society, as kids could go out in to the world with values that conflict with utilitarianism and thus conflict with the laws. Again, this doesn't mean books will be banned and kids will have to suppress all their emotions, it just means that a fully functional educational system would be in place to teach people how to deal with their emotions in constructive ways, how to become productive citizens and how to maximize the joy/pleasure/goodness/whatever in their lives without hurting anyone.

Yes, this is an idealist utopia and will never happen. I'm aware of that. Still, I think if someone had implemented a system like this centuries, or even one century ago, a better world (or at least country) could have been ours.

:wolverine
 
Okay, while that was rather long winded, I like the prison colony idea. And, if someone is so dangerous that they're never going to rehabilitate, don't kill tham. Send them into military service. Might as well put those homicidal tendancies to some good use.
 
The Question said:
Okay, while that was rather long winded, I like the prison colony idea. And, if someone is so dangerous that they're never going to rehabilitate, don't kill tham. Send them into military service. Might as well put those homicidal tendancies to some good use.

The only way I'd ever put a criminal into military service is if I had them implanted with a locator device that could explode by remote detonation. I wouldn't put my own military in danger from their own fellow soldiers.

:wolverine
 
ALthough I agree that prison and capital punishment should be used for containment and deterrence rather than retribution, you gotta admit that this thread is starting to sound like the screenplay for a certain Ray Liota movie (I forgot the name, I think it's "NO Escape").
 
Herr Logan said:
Thanks, bub. :up:

The last philosophy class I took put the death penalty under a microscope, and I was completely shocked that incapacitation was a sub-division of another major purpose of the death penalty. I honestly can't even remember what that was under, because I reject that inferior way of thinking wholeheartedly. Incapacitation is the one and only purpose of the death penalty that can never be questioned by intelligent people. Dead is dead. Also, prison sentences supposedly act as incapacitation a well, although not nearly as effectively. For one thing, prisoners still can hurt other prisoners while behind bars, and they also tend to get out of prison as fast as the system can push them out. There truly is no such thing as "life without parole," unless you're talking about a high-profile assassination case or serial murderers.

In my ideal criminal justice system, most seriously violent offenders would either be put to death in a humane manner (painless lethal injection, a shot in the head or the guillotine, rather than something cruel like the electric chair or a lethal injection designed to cause suffering in the last moments), or put in life-long prison colonies that are completely cut off from society, where they have no access to e-mail (outside a limited intranet) or phone books or anything they could use to harass the law-abiding population. They would have mail priviledges, but closely monitored. There would be no "reasonable expectation of privacy" for convicted dangerous humans, and the slightest chance that a criminal could be sending out a message designed to get someone hurt is enough to justify reading their in-coming and out-going mail. Any prison staff that would use this or any other power and knowledge over prisoners for nefarious purposes isn't fit to be part of the system. Prisoners would spend their days working a reasonable number of hours, producing products or items used by both themselves and the legal population, but only items that can't be dangerously flawed. License plates, as cliche as that is, are probably a good example, since it's not a part of the car that could go wrong and get someone hurt. That's kind of what I'm talking about. These prisoners would essentially earn their right to stay alive by working, as I don't believe it's right to spend society's taxes on keeping dangerous animals alive.

The prison colonies would not be designed to be cruel, horrific places. Cruelty in general hurts the entire species and should not be officially justified. Institutionalized cruelty is despicable, because it is not productive and makes things worse, so the entire concept of "punishment" should be abolished from the system. I am one of the most vengeance-minded people you would ever meet, so understand me when I say all this; a person has a right to want to be cruel to others for personal gratification, but the government should never encourage that behavior and act it out on anyone. Neither prison nor death need to be instruments of punishment. The government's role should be to protect the people, and cruelty and punishment does not do that at all. If a dog bites a person who isn't part of the household, they are often put to death. A dog with rabies is always put to death. Is that punishment? No, it's for society's protection. Ignorant, naive people seem to think that a human should be treated more leniently than a dog in this kind of situation, but the undisputable fact of the matter is that humans are thousands of times more dangerous than any dog, and that's the only thing that matters. Death comes to us all and can be kept at bay to a certain degree only so long. Joy and pain, however, are far more controllable, and since violent offenders bring more pain than joy to law-abiding citizens, they should be removed as a threat for the greater good.

The only way a prisoner would ever leave these colonies and rejoin society is if they pass psychiatric tests specifically designed to judge how they will act in the real world, and the idea that a "model prisoner" is a good candidate for parole will be forever aboloshed. It's unspeakable amoral for shrinks, parole board members and wardens and whoever else to suggest it's okay to let a dangerous animal back into the population simply because they have behaved themselves in a prison environment. I don't think I should have to explain why that is, and anyone who would argue that is a piece of trash. I'll explain for those who don't understand, but I won't dignify an argument, because I don't talk to people who would rather see innocent people put at risk than read a book on psychopathic criminals.

The prison colonies would mostly not be for reform or rehabilitation, but there would be institutions that would attempt to rehabilitate anyone the system deems likely to be "fixed" in a reasonable amount of time and at a reasonable cost. Again, I don't believe in spending money that could go to the purpose of socialized medicine and education should go to keeping a miserable killer or rapist alive is ever justified. This applies to the insane and mentally deficient as well. Intent matters to a certain extent, but the real heart of the matter is whether a person is dangerous or not. If it's a psychotic condition that can be controlled through medication (such as schizophrenia), then that's a potentially rehabitable person or at least a controllable one.

The overall basis for all of this is utilitarianism-- the highest amount of pleasure for the highest amount of people in the long term. This stems from something called "hedonic utilitarianism," which is not to be confused with "hedonism." In it's purest form, hedonic utilitarianism is ridiculous, because there's no such unit of measurement for pleasure such as a "hedon" (I'm not kidding, there was a guy who came up with that). Also, personal priorities for individuals should not be based on the highest number of people in all situations. Family and loved ones come first, then the highest number of people. That's for individuals, though. The government should be concerned with the numbers, and if they're doing a good enough job, citizens won't have to make too many huge decisions regarding the welfare of "the people" a opposed to their people.



Realistically, there is no way to guarantee that. The best I could do is carefully screen everyone that is part of my government while in power and bring in new, younger people (because they would have been indocrinated in utilitarian, benevolent ways of thinking, and if I were dictator I'd be alive a long time 'cause I get good health coverage) that are deemed suitable to take care of the people.

Again, V would not like me very much and would surely rebel against me, but I don't and would not implement an agenda that strictly forbids creativity and would certainly not descriminate based on meaningless categories such as "race" or sexual orientation and so forth.
Religion, however, is a different matter. People act like different religions should be accepted as if they were "race" and ethnicity categories. They aren't. Ideas and thoughts and intent actually matter, and therefore religion would have to be kept under control. Again, what people do in their own homes when it doesn't hurt anybody should be their own business (not that I wouldn't be spying on people once in a while, since that's the only way you can make sure it stays harmless), but when it affects other people, it better be benevolent. Most "mainstream" religious practices would be permitted, since snakehandlers and honor killings aren't the usual religious fare, but if people used their "beliefs" as an excuse to hurt anyone, they'd be sentenced to death as soon as guilt was proven. If someone commits an "honor killing," they will be executed as soon as possible, since that's the kind of psychosis that not even medication can effectively treat without leaving someone nothing more than a financial liability. Same thing with bombing abortion clinics and so forth (and yes, abortion would be completely, unequivocally legalized throughout the entire jurisdiction of this government, and doctors would still be required to learn how to do them, although they wouldn't be forced to perform them).

Ah yes, that reminds me; people would need licenses to have children. The smaller the population, the better the chances of keeping it safe and happy. The less unfit parents and screwed up kids, the less criminals crowding the colonies and temporary prisons (for lesser crimes that require probation to test their rehabilitation potential). The government would fund drug stores all over the jurisdiction that provide free birth control products (with doctor's prescription if it's medication as opposed to condoms, etc.) and comprehensive sex education would be required in all schools. Ah yes, I forgot to mention, all schools would be public schools, reformed to teach kids how to be decent people and not end up in a courtroom where they're given the choice to either live in a prison colony for the rest of their lives or be killed quickly and as painlessly as possible very shortly. Private schools would be a detriment to society, as kids could go out in to the world with values that conflict with utilitarianism and thus conflict with the laws. Again, this doesn't mean books will be banned and kids will have to suppress all their emotions, it just means that a fully functional educational system would be in place to teach people how to deal with their emotions in constructive ways, how to become productive citizens and how to maximize the joy/pleasure/goodness/whatever in their lives without hurting anyone.

Yes, this is an idealist utopia and will never happen. I'm aware of that. Still, I think if someone had implemented a system like this centuries, or even one century ago, a better world (or at least country) could have been ours.

:wolverine


It's scary how much I agree with you.
 
Herr Logan said:
The only way I'd ever put a criminal into military service is if I had them implanted with a locator device that could explode by remote detonation. I wouldn't put my own military in danger from their own fellow soldiers.

:wolverine


Cool. Whatever. Hell, I'd put all the crooks in one squad together. You know, like the Suicide Squad or the Dirty Dozen.
 
Horrorfan said:
It's scary how much I agree with you.

If only everyone could be scared for that same reason, the world would be a better place.

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
If only everyone could be scared for that same reason, the world would be a better place.

:wolverine


Oh I didn't mean in a bad way, just how similar we think. I think that would be the best way to go to be honest with you.
 
Herr Logan said:
If only everyone could be scared for that same reason, the world would be a better place.

:wolverine


Not necesairily. I mean, no offense, but you can't be right about everything. No one can.
 
The Question said:
Not necesairily. I mean, no offense, but you can't be right about everything. No one can.

I would be he is right about that though. Sadly there is no way to know.
 
Horrorfan said:
Oh I didn't mean in a bad way, just how similar we think. I think that would be the best way to go to be honest with you.

Welcome to the Hype. :up:

:wolverine
 
The Question said:
Not necesairily. I mean, no offense, but you can't be right about everything. No one can.

You'll learn. You'll all learn...


:wolverine
 
Im betting Wyoming is a hot bed of criminal activity in the MU.
 

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