Are people in the Marvel Universe stupider and more violent?

Th' thing is this; it's a non-unified unity.

Allow me to explain.

Yes, all these heroes exist in th' same world. Yes, all these heroes reside in th' same city. BUT, through th' magic of comics, in fact these heroes all reside within their own separate versions of th' world within their own titles. That's why you'll rarely see th' Human Torch flyin' through th' air in a Spidey comic or Captain America stoppin' fer a hot dog in Hell's Kitchen. Simple fact is, unless there's a cross-over, these heroes exist in their own worlds.

I dunno, maybe it's to allow more creative freedom, or just th' world's biggest cop-out. Either way.
 
I..would have to say no to a extent.I think its the sign of the times,its more talk and down to level with the heros and the readers.I would rather have them like decades past...
 
Herr Logan said:
Depends on how organized it is, and how careful people are not to hurt innocent others. Doesn't sound like a typical riot, but if they did it that way, more power to them.

Of course, if I had my way, we would have a totalitarian government and you'd all behave yourselves and be civil to each other because I damn well said so, and would make sure that every new child born is indoctrinated to behave this way and know the utilitarian reasons why they should. The only significantly effective method of deterrence is educating people to be rational and fear each other equally.

I'm not even a little bit kidding, but perhaps "authoritarian utilitarian" is a better word.

:wolverine

I don't think V would like you very much.
 
Elijya said:
this goes for the DC universe, as well

Putting aside all the actual supervillains and just concentrating on the human element - doesn't it seem like normal people are more likely to commit crimes in the comic universes?

Take our own world: sure we have crime, and we have gangs and what not, but it's relatively rare compared to what we see in comics.

In your own personal life, how many major crimes have you been a witness to? In a major metropolitan area, how many major crimes take place in a day? From watching the local news every night, and I'd estimate maybe an average of four or five instances every day. This covers things like rapes, murders, gang shootings, robberies, and other things. A rough estimate, maybe it's a little higher, but ten instances tops, I would think, on average. (I'm basing this on the Philadelphia local news. New York is a much larger place, I realize)

Now you jump into the Marvel universe, where 99% of the activity we see is concentrated in New York. The 616 New York is patrolled by DOZENS of superheroes, which one would think would act as a deterrent. And yet, crime is high enough to keep these heroes busy on a regular basis. Also consider that the heroes stop or capture many of these criminals. Sure, a fair number can slip through loopholes and not be convicted, but they can't all be dumb enough to go back to their criminal endevors only to get the crap kicked out of them by Spider-Man again the next week, and so on and so on.

The Punisher is the real conundrum, because unlike most Marvel vigilantes, he chiefly deals with the human criminal element. And he doesn't just capture them, he executes them, eliminating the possibility of them returning. Yet, if you were to add up all of the Punisher's victims since his initial appearence, you would be well into the four digits. And again, most of them in the New York. Most of these are organized crime associates. In our own world, what are the estimates of the populations organized crime groups in a major city? I have no idea, but I would think maybe a few hundred, at most.

And the appeal of being a mob boss in real life is that the organization has money they can bribe officials with or pay for fancy lawyers, and you have buddies who can intimidate witnesses or vouch for you and what no. So basicly, the consequences are lessened.

But when you put the Punisher in the picture, the consequence is no longer just being arrested and being let out, it's being blown away by a man who has killed hundreds of people in the same line of work, and has never been stopped. How suicidal are you to operate as an organized criminal in New York with that man running around? And that's just ONE of the local vigilantes who might take you down. Nevermind the normal human police who also get their jobs done.


Let's broaden the scope a little to terrorist organizations: In our world, we have things like Al Queda, who're halfway around the world, and then things like the Klu Klux Klan and maybe some of those nutsos who live on compounds in the middle of nowhere. But in the Marvel Universe, you have AIM, Hydra, the Secret Empire, and more. These organizations are able to recruit hundreds, or maybe even thousands, of henchmen. And these people are not usually foreigners, no, they're Americans. Americans convinced to take down America. How common are those in our world? We get a Timothy McVeigh or a Richard Reid every few years, but they're extremely rare.

And again, the take-down factor: How many Hydra facilities has Captain America single handedly shut down? How many AIM bases has Shield blown up? And unlike the criminals people like Spider-Man takes down, Hydra or AIM agents taken in by Shield are almost garaunteed to go to jail and spend a long time there. So where do these groups keep getting people? Are there really that many disaffected Americans in the Marvel Universe? Are they just stupider?

Thoughts? :)



That's the main reason that I think having all those heroes on New York is a bad idea story wise. I could see a few vigilantes having enough crime to keep themselves busy in New York. Like, maybe one or two to each of the major neighborhoods would be acceptible. But they've got several dozen. Doesn't make sense. Also, with The Punisher, he moves around alot.
 
Especially when you think about The Sentry being in New York, you really dont need much more help fighting crime.
 
There is no consequence or deterrence for commiting a crime in a universe where even death is only a temporary condition.

A death sentence would just be a cue for a relaunch of the character.
 
that's true for the superpowered ones, but not for the norms
 
Gambit8370 said:
There is no consequence or deterrence for commiting a crime in a universe where even death is only a temporary condition.

A death sentence would just be a cue for a relaunch of the character.


Okay, here's the deal. Yes, there have been resurections in the Marvel Universe. But maybe a few dozen at the most. In a world of six billion people, and over the course of the entirety of human history, that is incredibly rare. I highly doubt that any criminals would consider Death to be a temporary condition.
 
roach said:
This is why Marvel needs to farm it's heroes out to different cities. I think it is easier to get away with a crime in Gotham than Marvel NY. Batman is one guy(yeah he has the others) and doesnt always go after all crime. Marvel NY on the other hand has heroes tripping all over each other. If I was a super criminal I'd set up shop in Chicago or Dallas.
Batman's even worse. This guy's appeared in more comics than any other character, averaging, what? 5 stories a month? he has literally taken down THOUSANDS of criminals, and as Bruce Wayne, also has the resources and sense of responsibility to see that they get put away (Again, dealing with the true criminal element, not the super powered ones or Batman's psychotic rogues gallery. We all know arkham has a revolving door). He's taken down twice as many criminals as any other two characters combined, except for Superman. Gotham City is his *****.

And with the Gotham lowlife and henchmen, there's an even greater detterrent: what criminal is gonna work for one of the psychotic rogues like the Joker or Two-Face, who're just as likely to kill you as Batman is to capture you? You have to be ten times as stupid then.
 
Infinity9999x said:
I don't think V would like you very much.

No, but he might not hate me nearly as much as he did the government in that story.

The thing is, I'd leave art and personal lifestyle choices (and that comment refers to actions, not desires, not that desires would be a priority for "correcting") mostly free of interference (exceptions include sex with minors, kiddie porn, and the like). I wouldn't be burning books and films and so forth just to get rid of "harmful" ideas of independence. It's only anything that actually leads to violence, disease and criminal neglect that I'd attack directly. Acting on irrational prejudices would be illegal, and rather than relying on a criminal justice system (which would be far more intrusive, honest and efficient under my control) to deter people from being hurtful @ssholes, the "new society" would be taught from childhood to be something better than that, for the right reasons. It's not enough to tell people to follow an order just because it's an order, or because some imaginary deity is watching out for them. They have to know the truth as soon as they're able to comprehend it.

People being nice to other people is "mutually assured destruction" (as Dr. Greg House put it) on a miniscule scale, although I don't consider it wholesale cowardice as that character does. The Golden Rule has nothing to do with religion or irrational rules at its core, it's just sensible. Teach everyone how and why they should follow that rule and leave them to their hobbies, dreams and distractions (the stuff they deemed contraband in 'V for Vendetta') when they're on their own time.

Violence would be outlawed in real-life situations but encouraged in virtual reality interaction and fiction. Probably also controlled settings like martial arts and such. Trying to get rid of the urge to be violent is useless, a waste of a lot of resources and therefore an amoral pursuit. Giving people an outlet for their basic natural urges, while teaching them (forcing them, when you really get down to it) how to channel and sublimate them is how to propogate a peaceful society without taking away imagination and humanity. You don't turn them into something other than people, you just raise them to be good people, which do exist in this world, at least to some degree. Hell, people have lived for centuries while being entertained by fiction that depicts dangerous acts that humans are either physically and technologically incapable of or very, very unlikely to engage in. Keep that the mindset and divert violent energy away from real people and toward safe targets (video games, punching bags, violent TV and movies, etc.) and you have a chance to stop the mindless bull$hit behind a good chunk of human suffering.

Rant over. For now...

:wolverine
 
The Question said:
Okay, here's the deal. Yes, there have been resurections in the Marvel Universe. But maybe a few dozen at the most. In a world of six billion people, and over the course of the entirety of human history, that is incredibly rare. I highly doubt that any criminals would consider Death to be a temporary condition.
it's like that FBI guy said in Daredevil when they were figuring out how he got his powers "Sheesh, if I got hit in the face with a radioactive isotope, do you know what would happen to me? I would get cancer and die."

the heroes and villains who have fantastical things happen to them, like returning from the dead or being granted powers by freak radiation accidents - they're the exceptions to the rule. Radioactivity still does kill people, and they do still stay dead, with a 99.99999% probabilty of staying that way
 
Elijya said:
And with the Gotham lowlife and henchmen, there's an even greater detterrent: what criminal is gonna work for one of the psychotic rogues like the Joker or Two-Face, who're just as likely to kill you as Batman is to capture you? You have to be ten times as stupid then.

They obviously are that stupid. A lot of those people are actually eager to work with those characters, because they obvious like danger (or they wouldn't be violent thugs in the first place) and they like the vicarious prestige. Also, when things go right, they get paid well. Several stories show little snippets of that mentality.

:wolverine
 
Elijya said:
Batman's even worse. This guy's appeared in more comics than any other character, averaging, what? 5 stories a month? he has literally taken down THOUSANDS of criminals, and as Bruce Wayne, also has the resources and sense of responsibility to see that they get put away (Again, dealing with the true criminal element, not the super powered ones or Batman's psychotic rogues gallery. We all know arkham has a revolving door). He's taken down twice as many criminals as any other two characters combined, except for Superman. Gotham City is his *****.

And with the Gotham lowlife and henchmen, there's an even greater detterrent: what criminal is gonna work for one of the psychotic rogues like the Joker or Two-Face, who're just as likely to kill you as Batman is to capture you? You have to be ten times as stupid then.


Yeah but Bruce doest take a day off...so he's working all the time....but he is still one dude
 
Elijya said:
it's like that FBI guy said in Daredevil when they were figuring out how he got his powers "Sheesh, if I got hit in the face with a radioactive isotope, do you know what would happen to me? I would get cancer and die."

the heroes and villains who have fantastical things happen to them, like returning from the dead or being granted powers by freak radiation accidents - they're the exceptions to the rule. Radioactivity still does kill people, and they do still stay dead, with a 99.99999% probabilty of staying that way



Exactly. If you think of resurections in comics from a medical standpoint, they're incredibly rare. If a disease pops up 100 times in a decade, it's considered rare. There have been less than 100 resurectoions in Marvel continuity, I'd think.
 
The "Coven" arc of the last Captain Marvel series addressed some consequences of resurrection. Coven, a criminal whom Rick Jones testified against, got the death penalty but Genis resurrected him and imbued Coven with a portion of his own power. So when Rick tried to get Coven arrested again, he not only couldn't be arrested because he'd technically served his sentence (he did die) and hadn't committed any other crimes since, he was protected from being tried for his previous crimes again under the double-jeopardy rule.
 
Elijya said:
this goes for the DC universe, as well

Putting aside all the actual supervillains and just concentrating on the human element - doesn't it seem like normal people are more likely to commit crimes in the comic universes?

Take our own world: sure we have crime, and we have gangs and what not, but it's relatively rare compared to what we see in comics.

In your own personal life, how many major crimes have you been a witness to? In a major metropolitan area, how many major crimes take place in a day? From watching the local news every night, and I'd estimate maybe an average of four or five instances every day. This covers things like rapes, murders, gang shootings, robberies, and other things. A rough estimate, maybe it's a little higher, but ten instances tops, I would think, on average. (I'm basing this on the Philadelphia local news. New York is a much larger place, I realize)

Now you jump into the Marvel universe, where 99% of the activity we see is concentrated in New York. The 616 New York is patrolled by DOZENS of superheroes, which one would think would act as a deterrent. And yet, crime is high enough to keep these heroes busy on a regular basis. Also consider that the heroes stop or capture many of these criminals. Sure, a fair number can slip through loopholes and not be convicted, but they can't all be dumb enough to go back to their criminal endevors only to get the crap kicked out of them by Spider-Man again the next week, and so on and so on.

The Punisher is the real conundrum, because unlike most Marvel vigilantes, he chiefly deals with the human criminal element. And he doesn't just capture them, he executes them, eliminating the possibility of them returning. Yet, if you were to add up all of the Punisher's victims since his initial appearence, you would be well into the four digits. And again, most of them in the New York. Most of these are organized crime associates. In our own world, what are the estimates of the populations organized crime groups in a major city? I have no idea, but I would think maybe a few hundred, at most.

And the appeal of being a mob boss in real life is that the organization has money they can bribe officials with or pay for fancy lawyers, and you have buddies who can intimidate witnesses or vouch for you and what no. So basicly, the consequences are lessened.

But when you put the Punisher in the picture, the consequence is no longer just being arrested and being let out, it's being blown away by a man who has killed hundreds of people in the same line of work, and has never been stopped. How suicidal are you to operate as an organized criminal in New York with that man running around? And that's just ONE of the local vigilantes who might take you down. Nevermind the normal human police who also get their jobs done.


Let's broaden the scope a little to terrorist organizations: In our world, we have things like Al Queda, who're halfway around the world, and then things like the Klu Klux Klan and maybe some of those nutsos who live on compounds in the middle of nowhere. But in the Marvel Universe, you have AIM, Hydra, the Secret Empire, and more. These organizations are able to recruit hundreds, or maybe even thousands, of henchmen. And these people are not usually foreigners, no, they're Americans. Americans convinced to take down America. How common are those in our world? We get a Timothy McVeigh or a Richard Reid every few years, but they're extremely rare.

And again, the take-down factor: How many Hydra facilities has Captain America single handedly shut down? How many AIM bases has Shield blown up? And unlike the criminals people like Spider-Man takes down, Hydra or AIM agents taken in by Shield are almost garaunteed to go to jail and spend a long time there. So where do these groups keep getting people? Are there really that many disaffected Americans in the Marvel Universe? Are they just stupider?

Thoughts? :)
And my I'm hetro thead was sneered at,....

Fqast answer:
The Marvel and DC universes are "Bigger Places"

They have larger overall populationa allowing for rational folk and idiots to co-exist.
I used to always "Marvel" that anything above a racketteer would stay in NewYork, Was amazed at the stupidity of being a crook in Gotham or Metropolols.


I once started a thread wondering why the tech base leve in the Marvel / DC Universes wasn't bigger?

Ironman, The Fantastic Four alone have tech that would end half a worlds ill's with Wakandan and Inhuman tech handling the other half.

Go figure I was met with a lot of what I figure you'll get here:
"It's a comic universe"
"Its not real"
"I suspend belief to better enjoy it"
"That requires deeper thought than I'm willing to give it" etc,...


Good luck though I gotcher back.
 
Well, the way I see it, the reason that there's still crime in New York is that the criminal element has adapted. I mean, you're facing a vigilante who's bulletproof? Buy some bombs. Some psycho with powers going after your criminal organization? Hire a super powered body gaurd. You know, stuff like that.
 
I have this picture in my head of city buses arriving every day in NY, filled with criminals from other cities drawn in like moths to a flame.to replace the numbers fallen to the Punisher´s guns. ;)
 
WHOA -- new Marvel plot idea.

It turns out, the original Hulk gamma rays have been going through the atmosphere since the original blast. As a result, anger and hatred have been multiplying among humans.

The world is slowly headed towards a "boiling point" wherein crime and violence will escalate to unpoliceable levels.

Cool idea!
 
Except, The Hulk's anger doesn't come from the rays. It comes from his deeply rooted psychological issues.
 
No, in fact I'd say its much more idealic. Even the villians are idealized versions of our own villians. While Hydra and AIM may be huge, we tend not to see any Hitlers, Stalins, Bathories, and other such dictators. Most villians in the MU and DCU stay in their little lairs and plot not how to destroy the common citizen or America, but how to defeat their archnemesis. You've never seen Dr Doom or Ultron nuke New York City even though that would be a quick and easy way of dealing with their foes. They tend to go straight to the source, or lure out their foes to their personal Island. They don't tend to go cause a ton of collateral damage (though thats changing as of late). The heroes and villians are much more obsessed with eachother than the common folk. Even Joker is much more concerned with the GCPD and Batman than anyone else. Usually foregoing hostages simply to concentrate on Batman. In our world Villians directly attack common citizens and are not easy to pick out of a crowd. In the MU and DCU usually the villians directly confront their adversaries.

For a good example look at Batman and Spider-Man. Most of their villians don't blame society or the US government for their problems, they either blame the hero or someone in the heroes life. After they get locked up its not how can I get back at this prison system and society that ruined my life, its how can I get out of here and mess up Spider-Man.
 
The Question said:
Except, The Hulk's anger doesn't come from the rays. It comes from his deeply rooted psychological issues.
EVERYONE's got deeply rooted psychological issues.

Especially around here... ;)
 
ShadowBoxing said:
No, in fact I'd say its much more idealic. Even the villians are idealized versions of our own villians. While Hydra and AIM may be huge, we tend not to see any Hitlers, Stalins, Bathories, and other such dictators. Most villians in the MU and DCU stay in their little lairs and plot not how to destroy the common citizen or America, but how to defeat their archnemesis. You've never seen Dr Doom or Ultron nuke New York City even though that would be a quick and easy way of dealing with their foes. They tend to go straight to the source, or lure out their foes to their personal Island. They don't tend to go cause a ton of collateral damage (though thats changing as of late). The heroes and villians are much more obsessed with eachother than the common folk. Even Joker is much more concerned with the GCPD and Batman than anyone else. Usually foregoing hostages simply to concentrate on Batman. In our world Villians directly attack common citizens and are not easy to pick out of a crowd. In the MU and DCU usually the villians directly confront their adversaries.

For a good example look at Batman and Spider-Man. Most of their villians don't blame society or the US government for their problems, they either blame the hero or someone in the heroes life. After they get locked up its not how can I get back at this prison system and society that ruined my life, its how can I get out of here and mess up Spider-Man.



Ummm, Ultron slaughtered an entire country of innocent people once. Dr. Octopus will kill anyone who's as much standing in a hallway he's walking through if he's got a goal he wants to acheive. Hell, The Green Goblin doesn't give two ****s about the common folk and would blow up a bus full of people just to **** with Spidey. Villains in Marvel atack the comon folk all the time. It's just that Spider-Man or Captain America usually show up before the body count surpasses the double digits.


Gambit8370 said:
EVERYONE's got deeply rooted psychological issues.

Yes. But his resulted in the Hulk (or Hulks, you could say) that we know today. The gamma radiation doesn't effect people's mental states the same way every time. Hell, there's only one instance where it really did a major change to anyone's mental state. Banner's change into The Hulk was simply the shock of his transformation uprooting his problems.
 
Elijya said:
Then why do we have the Death Penalty?


That's called 'punishment'.


I don't think 95 % of major criminals (ie rapists and murders) can be redeemed, so I fully support the death penalty. In all honesty, I think someone like the Punisher would be fantastic in real life.
 

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