Arkham MAX and (Matt Reeves-produced?) spin-offs

[SwordOfMorning]

I think one crucial, crucial detail you guys are COMPLETELY missing is the fact that Reeves universe right now is way, way, way more restrictive for projects like this than the DCU is. The Reeves universe is great—and it's also Reeves universe. They have to follow a very specific Batman and Gotham that Matt created, they have to be ridiculously aware of anything he has planned for his next 2 films which is probably also mega specific. There is pretty much zero creative freedom to be had on the Reevesverse because the only person that has that creative freedom at the end of the day is Matt Reeves.

Meanwhile, the DCU has no Batman established yet. It has no Gotham established. It's all a blank page in that regard, and Brave and the Bold is EXTREMELY unlikely to feature any of those rogues gallery villains in any sort of prominent ways.

It does not sound far fetched at all that yes, Matt at first thought "maybe we can make an Arkham show in my universe" but then as he met with actual showrunners and actual writers he realized that his world had faaar too many limitations and that an Arkham show would actually benefit from being in another universe that was a blank slate, which the DCU in regards to Batman undeniably is.

An Arkham show in the Reevesverse sounded cool, it could've been cool, but it also doesn't sound far fetched AT ALL how an Arkham show where they have access to all the rogues gallery villains and where they can do whatever they want with the lore on the hands of a talented, established showrunner might work a lot better, and how that's something that Matt probably ultimately recognized, being someone that demanded creative freedom himself.

Why would you ever think that you'd have more creative freedom under Gunn's regime than Reeves? Arkham is never going to be some auteur driven project, it'll have to conform to the needs of bigger projects either way. Gunn, presumably, has a very clear vision of what DCU Batman will be and whoever works on Arkham will have to conform to that, will probably have certain characters blocked off, etc.

Look, we also don't know what the version of Arkham set in Reeves universe looked like. We don't know if it was a more distant spin-off or something directly tied into the narrative like Penguin is.

 

[emielaen]

Lol clearly.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

It's true, Superman Legacy could be amazing, but I have my doubts!

You don't think the movie which doesn't feature a single popular actor, based around a character the public has repeatedly displayed total apathy towards (with caveats! those movies were mediocre or bad!) that's only really selling point is "FROM THE DIRECTOR OF GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY" - a thing that already failed to help one DC movie - linked to a deeply damaged brand at a moment in time when audiences are starting to reject CBMs is a sure fire box office smash?!

 

[Filmfreak]

I think one crucial, crucial detail you guys are COMPLETELY missing is the fact that Reeves universe right now is way, way, way more restrictive for projects like this than the DCU is. The Reeves universe is great—and it's also Reeves universe. They have to follow a very specific Batman and Gotham that Matt created, they have to be ridiculously aware of anything he has planned for his next 2 films which is probably also mega specific. There is pretty much zero creative freedom to be had on the Reevesverse because the only person that has that creative freedom at the end of the day is Matt Reeves. Even The Penguin is just looking to copy on a cheaper budget Matt's aesthetic.

Meanwhile, the DCU has no Batman established yet. It has no Gotham established. It has no look or designs established. It's all a blank page in that regard, and Brave and the Bold (which also doesn't have a script yet) is EXTREMELY unlikely to feature any of those rogues gallery villains in any sort of prominent ways.

It does not sound far fetched at all that yes, Matt at first thought "maybe we can make an Arkham show in my universe" but then as he met with actual showrunners and actual writers he realized that his world had faaar too many limitations and that an Arkham show would actually benefit from being in another universe that was a blank slate, which the DCU in regards to Batman undeniably is.

An Arkham show in the Reevesverse sounded cool, it could've been cool, but it also doesn't sound far fetched AT ALL how an Arkham show where they have access to all the rogues gallery villains and where they can do whatever they want with the lore on the hands of a talented, established showrunner might work a lot better, and how that's something that Matt probably ultimately recognized, being someone that demanded creative freedom himself. In recognizing that, he pitched it to Gunn as part of the DCU which is again, a blank slate right now, and Gunn accepted.

You really are advocating that Reeves would somehow feel restrictions in his own universe where you literally said yourself he has all the creative freedom he needs, and still thinking that this is a more possible scenario than Gunn telling him "you can do this show that you originally wanted to be part of your universe, but only if it's set in a larger one that I'm now creating, because from now on we want every new project to be part of one singular continuity".

 

[Invader Joker]

Why would you ever think that you'd have more creative freedom under Gunn's regime than Reeves? Arkham is never going to be some auteur driven project, it'll have to conform to the needs of bigger projects either way. Gunn, presumably, has a very clear vision of what DCU Batman will be and whoever works on Arkham will have to conform to that, will probably have certain characters blocked off, etc.

Look, we also don't know what the version of Arkham set in Reeves universe looked like. We don't know if it was a more distant spin-off or something directly tied into the narrative like Penguin is.

Because the DCU doesn't have:
-A Batman established.
-A Gotham established.
-A look established.
-A cast established.
-Very specific rules in terms of realism established.

And the Reeverse does. Of course a show like this would have more creative freedom in the DCU. Do you think Gunn is gonna be micromanaging this because in the future he has plans for Two Face to make an alliance with Darkseid or something?

 

[Invader Joker]

You really are advocating that Reeves would somehow feel restrictions in his own universe where you literally said yourself he has all the creative freedom he needs, and still thinking that this is a more possible scenario than Gunn telling him "you can do this show that you originally wanted to be part of your universe, but only if it's set in a larger one that I'm now creating, because from now on we want every new project to be part of one singular continuity".

Because it's not Matt Reeves showrunning this project. It's Antonio Campos, who in the DCU has more freedom to make this show whatever he wants, with the cast he wants, with the rogues gallery villains he wants, than he'd in the Reevesverse where Matt would have to be micromanaging all that to make sure it fits with The Batman Part ll and Part lll. Meanwhile Brave and the Bold doesn't even have a script yet and when it does it's unlikely to deal into any of these villains, meaning it can all be created from scratch.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Because it's not Matt Reeves showrunning this project. It's Antonio Campos, who in the DCU has more freedom to make this show whatever he wants, with the cast he wants, with the rogues gallery villains he wants, than he'd in the Reevesverse where Matt would have to be micromanaging all that to make sure it fits with The Batman Part ll and Part lll. Meanwhile Brave and the Bold doesn't even have a script yet and when it does it's unlikely to deal into any of these villains.

Villains they will eventually want access to and control over. It feels obvious to me it would be closer to a character being introduced in a Disney+ MCU show for future use in the movies than Campos just getting to invent whatever he wants with them. The people showrunning the DCU are going to have a huge say in how characters like Joker, etc. are portrayed.

 

[Invader Joker]

Villains they will eventually want access to and control over.

I mean, yes in the sense they'd want to use them in other projects after they're established. Not in the sense that I think Gunn has any idea of what those projects would be, so by this point it's probably better to just let someone run wild with them and then pick them up after they do something cool with it. I really, really, really doubt Gunn has even the slightest idea of what they're gonna do with people like Calendar Man, Ventriloquist, Poison Ivy, Two-Face, Riddler, etc at this point. Just because they have a rough outline of what the overall DCU story is gonna be doesn't mean they actually know what they'll do or are mega specific for characters like that.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I mean, yes in the sense they'd want to use them in other projects after they're established. Not in the sense that I think Gunn has any idea of what those projects would be, so by this point it's probably better to just let someone run wild with them and then pick them up after they do something cool with it.

This show is never going to be precedence over whatever Batman film series it is a spinoff of. It just isn't. It will always be a secondary project that has to conform to and play by the rules of something larger.

 

[Invader Joker]

This show is never going to be precedence over whatever Batman film series it is a spinoff of. It just isn't. It will always be a secondary project that has to conform to and play by the rules of something larger.

I mean, right now it's technically not even a spin-off since it'll probably release before Brave and the Bold does. It's had a writer, showrunner and director for way longer.

 

[Filmfreak]

Because it's not Matt Reeves showrunning this project. It's Antonio Campos, who in the DCU has more freedom to make this show whatever he wants, with the cast he wants, with the rogues gallery villains he wants, than he'd in the Reevesverse where Matt would have to be micromanaging all that to make sure it fits with The Batman Part ll and Part lll. Meanwhile Brave and the Bold doesn't even have a script yet and when it does it's unlikely to deal into any of these villains, meaning it can all be created from scratch.

Your way of thinking makes no sense. Even if Reeves is not a showrunner in a project, if he wanted something developed he would still oversee things and have a final say, so neither Ramos nor anyone would do something Reeves didn't feel comfortable with. And you are saying that instead of expanding his universe like he originally wanted, he would somehow find it more compelling to start yet another one, somewhere where he would have to compromise far more given they're going to possibly want a specific tone for the show, similar to others, and for it to be a part of crossovers and even more potential spin-offs. And again you believe, not that this is plausible, but that it is the most plausible scenario. I don't really have much more to say on the matter.

 

[Invader Joker]

Your way of thinking makes no sense. Even if Reeves is not a showrunner in a project, if he wanted something developed he would still oversee things and have a final say, so neither Ramos nor anyone would do something Reeves didn't feel comfortable with. And you are saying that instead of expanding his universe like he originally wanted, he would somehow find it more compelling to start yet another one, somewhere where he would have to compromise far more given they're going to possibly want a specific tone for the show, similar to others, and for it to be a part of crossovers and even more potential spin-offs. And again you believe, not that this is plausible, but that it is the most plausible scenario. I don't really have much more to say on the matter.

Where the hell would he have to compromise? The DCU doesn't even exist yet! And again, I frankly think you guys are insane if you think Gunn and Safran have any mega specific idea as to what to do with any of the rogues at this juncture that Campos would have to adhere to. I can buy them having mega specific ideas for Batman, the Bat-Family, Wonder Woman, Hal Jordan, John Stewart, etc. Characters that'd pop up on their Avengers equivalent movies. But ****ing Two-Face, Ivy, Ventriloquist, Clayface and whoever else pops up here? Seriously?

 

[Filmfreak]

Where the hell would he have to compromise? The DCU doesn't even exist yet! And again, I frankly think you guys are insane if you think Gunn and Safran have any mega specific idea as to what to do with any of the rogues at this juncture.

Creature Commandos is almost ready and Legacy is about to start shooting soon. Even for the ones that are very early in development Gunn certainly has a rough idea in his head. The fact that you think that he'd use any other single person to create any sort of template for said universe is laughable.

 

[Invader Joker]

Creature Commandos is almost ready and Legacy is about to start shooting soon. Even for the ones that are very early in development Gunn certainly has a rough idea in his head. The fact that you think that he'd use any other single person to create any sort template of said universe is laughable.

Great. None of that has anything to do with the Batman rogues gallery characters, who in the context of a much larger DCU are a really small part and hence one they can leave at the total freedom of someone else.

 

[Filmfreak]

Great. None of that has anything to do with the Batman rogues gallery characters, who in the context of a much larger DCU are a really small part and hence one they can leave at the total freedom of someone else.

You are focusing on one element and refusing to acknowledge any other restrictions he'd be having in a shared universe.

 

[Invader Joker]

Also, I'm sorry, but the alternative you guys are talking about is so, so ****ing ridiculous it's impossible for me to take seriously.

So James Gunn takes over, and like big bad evil studio head and dictator, sees Matt and Antonio Campos all excited doing their Arkham show tailored made for the Batverse, but then he wags his finger around and says "No Matt, it's MINE now!" and then makes it DCU when he doesn't even have a Batman yet.

What has done even done or said to make anyone think that'd be his approach? The mfer is appareantly letting Francis Lawrence and Keanu develop Constantine 2. He can't stop yapping about giving people creative freedom, his hands are already full by having to direct Legacy and oversee the 10 DCU projects he already announced. How the hell does it makes any sense for him to just steal a project like that from a creative and damage an important relationship in the process?

What has Matt, who threatened to walk out over creative freedom over The Batman, ever done to make anyone think he'd be completely happy with having a show outright stolen from and not even fight about it? He has clout and he has power. You think he wouldn't use it if he was being ****ed like this?

You are focusing on one element and refusing to acknowledge any other restrictions he'd be having in a shared universe.

A shared universe... like the one that The Batman and The Penguin and The Batman Part ll will already have very well established, with a very specific aesthetic, very specific character choices, very specific everything and that probably does require for rogues gallery characters to be micromanaged in a way the DCU wouldn't? It's gonna be in a shared universe no matter what but at least one wouldn't need micromanaging and having to stick to an already hyper-established aesthetic, and that ain't the Reevesverse.

 

[Invader Joker]

And again: There is precedent for Matt producing a Batman show not in the Reevesverse. It's Caped Crusader. You can dismiss it as an animated series but it is a precedent and it does showcase that Matt indeed is interested on supporting pitches and takes on Batman and his world that aren't in his universe. Why it sounds that far-fetched that Matt might be interested on supporting a pitch from Antonio Campos that's also not on his universe is beyond me. The alternative you guys are talking about is a trillion times more out of character for everyone involved.

 

[Eddie Dean]

 

[Invader Joker]

I will abbreviate it like this then: I think that if you think James Gunn is the sort of person that'd just completely **** over a filmmaker he respects like that, and if you think Matt Reeves is the sort of person that'd let themselves be ****ed over like that, it's because you haven't been paying attention to either of them.

 

[Eddie Dean]

True

 

[Filmfreak]

And again: There is precedent for Matt producing a Batman show not in the Reevesverse. It's Caped Crusader. You can dismiss it as an animated series but it is a precedent and it does showcase that Matt indeed is interested on supporting pitches and takes on Batman and his world that aren't in his universe. Why it sounds that far-fetched that Matt might be interested on supporting a pitch from Antonio Campos that's also not on his universe is beyond me. The alternative you guys are talking about is a trillion times more out of character for everyone involved.

Caped Crusader is indeed animated and it's pretty much the equivalent to What If. It's like saying that if for some reason Taika Waititi was to direct an episode of that series featured an alternate version of Thor, he would have equal chances of wanting to direct another completely different version of the same character in live action after having done two movies with the one we know. If anything it's even less plausible that Reeves want to develop a third Batman continuity.

And I like how you say it's out of character for Gunn to want things to be in one singular universe even though he clearly said that's what he'd do that very early on. Even with animated shows and video games. This is literally what he and Safran (and probably Zaslav) are pushing for. To take the MCU structure and apply it to even more things. The only reason The Batman and Joker are happening outside this new universe is, like we already said, because they have been by far the most successful things produced by DC, while the fate of the DCU is far more uncertain, and because their sequels were already in development.

It's not any sort of mustache twirling like you made it to be in a futile attempt to make it seem less plausible. It's strictly business and disregarding a filmmaker is new to neither Gunn nor Zaslav since their tenures started. Let's not forget all the miscommunication with Jenkins, Gadot, Cavill and many others since the DCU became a thing. Gunn's taking over was far from a smooth sail in terms of pr. I didn't see him or his big boss showing much respect to their previous associates.

 

[Invader Joker]

It's not any sort of mustache twirling like you made it to be in a futile attempt to make it seem less plausible. It's strictly business and disregarding a filmmaker is new to neither Gunn nor Zaslav since their tenures started. Let's not forget all the miscommunication with Jenkins, Gadot, Cavill and many others since the DCU became a thing. Gunn's taking over was far from a smooth sail in terms of pr. I didn't see him or his big boss showing much respect to their previous associates.

Reeves is not a "previous associate". Reeves is someone they're actively working with to make the next big Batman blockbuster film and also someone that made WB a ****ton of money. He's also someone that Gunn heavily respects, and has done so way before he took over DC. Who gives a **** if they piss off Jenkins, Gadot and Cavill? They're out and they'll never come back. Reeves on the other hand they'll be working for quite a while and is someone that both Zaslav AND Gunn have been praising even prior to Gunn's hiring.

Also lmfao. "It's just business" oh my god that makes the whole thing even more stupid and pointless from the perspective you're suggesting. If they wanted to take a "it's not personal matt, it's just business" they'd have strong-armed him to make Pattinson into DCU, not steal an Arkham show when Gunn already has his hands full on a ****ton of other things. Plus, the Reevesverse is already getting a spin-off show, what'd be the harm with another? It's just a MAX show.

Hell, Gunn, who has said he intends for videogames in the DCU to be released, just said that there will be more videogames set in the Arkhamverse. If he was that against elseworlds he'd have surely put an end to that especially looking at the disaster the Suicide Squad game is about to be. I love how you didn't address Keanu and Francis Lawrence developing the pointless Constantine 2 either, that's another thing he could've easily canned if he hated elseworlds that much.

 

[Eddie Dean]

Reeves is not a "previous associate". Reeves is someone they're actively working with to make the next big Batman blockbuster film and also someone that made WB a ****ton of money. He's also someone that Gunn heavily respects, and has done so way before he took over DC. Who gives a **** if they piss off Jenkins, Gadot and Cavill? They're out and they'll never come back. Reeves on the other hand they'll be working for quite a while and is someone that both Zaslav AND Gunn have been praising even prior to Gunn's hiring.

Also lmfao. "It's just business" oh my god that makes the whole thing even more stupid and pointless from the perspective you're suggesting. If they wanted to take a "it's not personal matt, it's just business" they'd have strong-armed him to make Pattinson into DCU, not steal an Arkham show when Gunn already has his hands full on a ****ton of other things. Plus, the Reevesverse is already getting a spin-off show, what'd be the harm with another? It's just a MAX show.

Hell, Gunn, who has said he intends for videogames in the DCU to be released, just said that there will be more videogames set in the Arkhamverse. If he was that against elseworlds he'd have surely put an end to that especially looking at the disaster the Suicide Squad game is about to be.

I agree, well said.

 

[Erik Lensherr]

Gunn stole it

 

[Invader Joker]

Gunn stole it

Those quotes where when the show didn't even have a showrunner, hell, probably before they were even taking pitches. Antonio Campos wasn't attached then and even Matt said it was all ridiculously early stages. Not far fetched at all that in the 7 months that passed since those quotes and when Matt met with actual creatives that gave actual fleshed out ideas on how the show was gonna be, he decided it wasn't gonna make sense in his universe anymore and offered it to Gunn.

What ****ing purpose would it serve Gunn to steal this show? It's a streaming show, it's not likely to generate any money for them whatsoever. It's attached to a version of Batman that doesn't exist yet, and Gunn already has a ton of stuff on his plate. The idea that he'd go out of his way to steal it and in the process harm his relationship with Matt Reeves is beyond stupid.

Also: It's not like Matt Reeves is a stranger at all to the idea of changing his mind on projects. The Batman was going to be a DCEU movie, but Matt later changed it to a reboot when he actually started fleshing it out. He was gonna do a Gotham PD show with Terence Winter which he bragged about on DC Fandome, and 3 months later he had creative differences with Terence. He then was gonna do that show with Joe Barton, it then fell apart again. Reeves doesn't have every single thing that he announces meticulously planned and if anything the "early stages stuff" he announces he tends to change his mind on.