Arnold Is Back for Terminator 5

[Thundercrack85]

It's reboot time if there ever was a time for it.

 

[CJ]

As far as I'm concerned Terminator 3 and Salvation don't exist. The series ended with film 2.

Agreed 100%

 

[PSYLENTGuardian]

But they delayed the original judgement day.

I still don't remember this being mentioned in T2. Judgment Day was delayed in T3, yes, and that changes things for T2, but from what I remember, such a delay wasn't established at the end of T2, back when James Cameron was making it.

 

[Solidus]

But at the end of Terminator 2 Sarah mentions that Judgement Day was delayed.

No it was never said in T1/T2 that it was delayed. That was what "excuse" they used to change everything in T3/T4. It still makes no sense. All Sarah said at the end of T2 was it's unknown even Sarah says so. Cameron made that ending ambiguous for a reason. IT WAS NEVER SAID IT WAS DELAYED AT THE END OF T2!

You and I have argued about this before, and every time you bring that up, "it was delayed!" Ya they did not mention that until T3 and T4 mainly because the writers had no idea, and clearly honest to god had watched T1 and T2 once ten years prior. Brancato and Ferris had no idea or understood the Terminator franchise.

Terminator was never about "alternate timelines/delayed timelines" in Terminator the timelines don't work like that. There is one timeline and that's what made them so great.

I have tried to explain this to you many times before and we can't get on the same page. So we will say what the T-800 said to the gunshop owner in T1:

"Wrong."

 

[Spider-Aziz]

This will be Terminator in the year Connor reprogram him/it?

 

[Solidus]

No, that happens in 2029.

 

[Asteroid-Man]

Future: There's a war that starts in 1997 and in 2029 when the machines start losing, they send a Terminator to the past to kill John Connor's mother (knowing nothing at this point about Kyle). John, knowing about this event from his mother's training, sends Kyle to save John (by protected Sarah and impregnating her).

T1:The Terminator has no idea what Sarah looks like so he kills every Sarah Connor he can find in a specific city (obviously the Machines have some sort of record if they know WHERE to go and WHAT John's mother's name was). Kyle arrives, is caught by the police and gives several statements to the police and a psychiatrist about the future tech, war and why he is there aswell as who sends he and then he escapes and saves Sarah. He is then killed after leaving her pregnant. Sarah keeps the knowledge of the future to train John to be a step of the game in the future. The arm that is left behind is what leads to the jump in technology (already an alternate timeline is created as humanity is given a headstart on tech.)

T2: Judgement day is 2 years away and Sarah is in an asylum giving warnings about the future, talking about the importance of John, her encounter with Kyle and the Terminators. A Terminator arrives from the (unaltered) future to protect Sarah from a more advanced Terminator. (Both arrive at an insitution where both Machines had record of in the future, so that would mean that they have accessed the files in this institution.) In the end, they find out that the arm was found leading to fastly advancing technology in a timeline that is only just coming into existence. They destroy the lab that would have caused Judgement day and the little footprint they left in time from T1 turns into a crater in the spacetime continuum as they prevented judgement day. The future of T1 and T2 is now out of the picture due to what happens in T2's present day.

T3:A Terminator comes to the past (from the future that was created due to the events of T2's present) to kill John's generals (this again changes the future) and in the end uploads the last part of the skynet virus. The virus was already launching, but the new Terminator uploads files into the Skynet system and the machine's protocol. Wouldn't you think that she would also give a forewarning to all of the machine's when she did this just like when Kyle warned Sarah? When this happens, time is altered yet again and John is worried. The T-800 tells John about the future (conceived due to the events of T2's present), but again, the future is altered again when the T-X updates the virus in 2004.

Terminator Salvation: We finally jump a bit into the future, but this isn't the same future that Sarah was warned about in T1 because that timeline was altered when the arm was found and when Judgement Day was prevented. This isn't the events of the future created due to the prevention of Judgement Day either as half of the important military figures were killed and the virus updated the Skynet system. The events we see in TS are caused by the events of Present Day T3. Half of John's friends/comrads/soon-to-be soldiers never even lived to see judgement day and the machines of this time period know of the events leading up to the death of John Connor (based on the timeline following the events of T2's present). So now we have a John Connor who believes he knows Skynets every move, and a Skynet that thinks it knows John Connor's every move. Skynet tries to alter the would-be time again by using a "would-be" general of John's as bait (they know he's important as in the future we see in T3, based on the events of T2 he's supposed to be a general, and he gave a statement back in the 80's about the future (they don't know Skynet's perspective from the original 2029 because that timeline no longer exists)) So Skynet knowing now that Kyle is important to John and knowing that John is the one who will lead the resistance (as the T-X forewarned Skynet in T3) tries to lure John to one of Skynet's facilities to kill him using the first T-800. This T-800 is more powerful than the T-800s in the first three as the records that the T-X uploaded into the Skynet server in T3 probably mentioned the T-800's weaknesses (which is why the new T-800s are invulnerable to molten metal but in T2 that's how the T-800 killed himself).

Now I wouldn't be surprised if in T5 the T-800s are almost impossible to control. Look some people like to say how TS and T3 were completely BS and confusing because they have plot holes and miss points made in the other terminator films, but in all honestly, these are movies about time travel and about changing things to alter the future. The timeline changes every film, and it's been like this since the beginning of T1 when Kyle spoke to the police (on record) about the future. This alone, would lead to some changes in the future.

No it was never said in T1/T2 that it was delayed. That was what "excuse" they used to change everything in T3/T4. It still makes no sense. All Sarah said at the end of T2 was it's unknown even Sarah says so. Cameron made that ending ambiguous for a reason. IT WAS NEVER SAID IT WAS DELAYED AT THE END OF T2!

You and I have argued about this before, and every time you bring that up, "it was delayed!" Ya they did not mention that until T3 and T4 mainly because the writers had no idea, and clearly honest to god had watched T1 and T2 once ten years prior. Brancato and Ferris had no idea or understood the Terminator franchise.

Terminator was never about "alternate timelines/delayed timelines" in Terminator the timelines don't work like that. There is one timeline and that's what made them so great.

I have tried to explain this to you many times before and we can't get on the same page. So we will say what the T-800 said to the gunshop owner in T1:

"Wrong."

I get what you're saying but the simple fact that that arm was left behind at the end of the first film changes things. It creates an alternate timeline. It's not a matter of you "trying to explain" this to me, it's a matter of how time would work (theoretically) if time-travel was possible.

 

[Solidus]

I get what you're saying but the simple fact that that arm was left behind at the end of the first film changes things. It creates an alternate timeline. It's not a matter of you "trying to explain" this to me, it's a matter of how time would work (theoretically) if time-travel was possible.

NOOOOOOO! You don't get what I'm trying to say.

The arm and chip left behind is what always made Skynet. There was never a time line or period where that did not happen. John and Skynet have an interesting relationship. They are both trying to kill each other, and in doing so they cause one another to be born. It's that simple. It did not ALTER THE TIME LINE. In the original Terminator the chip and arm was always what created Skynet in the first place. There was never a timeline where some Joe Schomoe created Skynet from nothing. He was always created from himself in a sense.

The theory is there IS NO ALTERNATE TIMELINES in Terminator (T1 and T2). The first two never indicated that at all. That is why Sarah went around blowing up computer factories, because the deleted scene at the end of T1 showed the factory was a Cyberdyne factory. That was always fate that Cyberdyne would go from a manufacturer of chips to making the ultimate CPU Skynet. In T1 and T2 there is no time changing.

If Bill wants to go back in time, after he created a time machine, no matter what he does he does not alter time. Why? Because he always made the time machine, making it does not mean it creates alternate timelines. That is a theory some have, but some have different theories, one that Cameron showed in T1 and T2, is that no matter what you don't' change your fate.

I really don't think you get what I'm saying.



EDIT: If someone creates a time machine that means he always meant to use it. So that means when he goes back in time, he does not change anything, because it was always fated that he would go back in time. John has no other father in Terminator. It is always Kyle Reese. So to understand that better, means John cannot exist with out a time machine, so that means there is always the time machine and the changes made by Skynet in T1 always happened. If there is a timeline where it does not happen it means NO JOHN CONNOR. Meaning no Terminator.

Yes other popular sci-fi movies do the "altered time line" but that's what made the first two Terminator's stand out. They were not altered timeline tales. Until T3 and T4 came along and the guys did not know how to fix it so they just went with it and changed everything.

Everyone just thinks in 2 dimension as Doc Brown would have but (so does he actually) of how time travel may possibly work. Most say you would go back and change things. Terminator and what I'm saying is that's not the case. It means you always went back in time, and hence you really don't change anything. Everything happens that is suppose to. The future cannot exist the way it does when you made the time machine with out you effecting the past.

And you keep making this assumption that the arm being left behind and the chip somehow gave them a leap. It did not quicken his making. Skynet was ALWAYS created by his arm and chip, it was how he was always created.

 

[Johnny Drama]

Terminator Salvation was a great movie. People consider it bad because it doesn't hold the same standard of T2, which is ignorant. Terminator 2 is Camerons best film, a cinematic masterpiece, there aren't many movies that CAN measure up to it, and a sequel within the same franchise is foolishly EXPECTED to live up to or surpass it, which is unlikely in any scenario. Ignorant. There aren't many bad things you can say about Salvation, and given it followed that HORRIBLE Terminator 3 you would think that by comparison it would be a masterpiece, but it still gets a bad rep for reasons completely unknown to me. I thought the tone of the film was reminiscent of the very first terminator and I loved Bales take on John Connor.

 

[Solidus]

Salvation did nothing but ignore the first two films, contradict itself, make Skynet the most stupid machine ever created among millions of other things.

Salvation was terrible. T3 may have been almost a parody of T2, but that was hands over fist what McG and Brancato/Ferris pushed out. The tone was nothing close to Terminator to me, it was Mad Max almost in nature. The entire aesthetic of TS was terrible, and not close to what T1 and T2 had set for the look of the future the feel of it. I remember Cameron always put in his scripts "Time frozen in hell" And to me it just looked like a Call of Duty game with rubble everywhere, no character to it.

EDIT: Also how the hell did Skynet know/care who Kyle Reese was. He was born after the war it said in T1 there is no records of him. And even the records of Sarah talking about him/him in the police station is still irrelevant. "Almost all the records were lost in the war." Skynet did not know what Sarah looked like, only her first and last name and where she lived: LA. And yet somehow in TS Skynet knows Reese is John's father, and somehow knows what he looks like which is even more ridiculousness. It just made no sense.

 

[THANOSRULES]

NOOOOOOO! You don't get what I'm trying to say.

The arm and chip left behind is what always made Skynet. There was never a time line or period where that did not happen. John and Skynet have an interesting relationship. They are both trying to kill each other, and in doing so they cause one another to be born. It's that simple. It did not ALTER THE TIME LINE. In the original Terminator the chip and arm was always what created Skynet in the first place. There was never a timeline where some Joe Schomoe created Skynet from nothing. He was always created from himself in a sense.

The theory is there IS NO ALTERNATE TIMELINES in Terminator (T1 and T2). The first two never indicated that at all. That is why Sarah went around blowing up computer factories, because the deleted scene at the end of T1 showed the factory was a Cyberdyne factory. That was always fate that Cyberdyne would go from a manufacturer of chips to making the ultimate CPU Skynet. In T1 and T2 there is no time changing.

If Bill wants to go back in time, after he created a time machine, no matter what he does he does not alter time. Why? Because he always made the time machine, making it does not mean it creates alternate timelines. That is a theory some have, but some have different theories, one that Cameron showed in T1 and T2, is that no matter what you don't' change your fate.

I really don't think you get what I'm saying.



EDIT: If someone creates a time machine that means he always meant to use it. So that means when he goes back in time, he does not change anything, because it was always fated that he would go back in time. John has no other father in Terminator. It is always Kyle Reese. So to understand that better, means John cannot exist with out a time machine, so that means there is always the time machine and the changes made by Skynet in T1 always happened. If there is a timeline where it does not happen it means NO JOHN CONNOR. Meaning no Terminator.

Yes other popular sci-fi movies do the "altered time line" but that's what made the first two Terminator's stand out. They were not altered timeline tales. Until T3 and T4 came along and the guys did not know how to fix it so they just went with it and changed everything.

Everyone just thinks in 2 dimension as Doc Brown would have but (so does he actually) of how time travel may possibly work. Most say you would go back and change things. Terminator and what I'm saying is that's not the case. It means you always went back in time, and hence you really don't change anything. Everything happens that is suppose to. The future cannot exist the way it does when you made the time machine with out you effecting the past.

And you keep making this assumption that the arm being left behind and the chip somehow gave them a leap. It did not quicken his making. Skynet was ALWAYS created by his arm and chip, it was how he was always created.

-You seem to think everybody can't get what your trying to say...people are just disagreeing with you man.

-your take on the end of T2 is somewhat accurate , but it is strongly implied there is a firm possibility the timeline has changed. They keep it open and it is by design.

-your thoughts on time travel are your own take..don't try to pass them off as absolute fact. They never iron out that there is no possibility of multiple timelines..and as I said I feel they do play up a strong possibility of this at the end of T2. Even if some characters say they cant change the future..etc.. its never ironed out that they are right..or that time travel works like that for certain within the films.

-multiple timelines are a non issue in T1..and I do feel they are not entirely discounted in T2.

-I don't think any of the "plot holes" in T3 and TS were not adequately explained within the films...they didn't really hurt the films...other things hurt these films...especially that they "were not T2"...

Honestly I felt T3 was a good flick, but it was hurt by an aged Arnold, non-charismatic John Connor (although he's a solid actor), and the film was essentially a re-hashed albeit well done re-romp of T2. Again, I do think it was still a very solid flick...but "not nohow" T2.
alvation did nothing but ignore the first two films, contradict itself, make Skynet the most stupid machine ever created among millions of other things.*

Salvation was terrible. T3 may have been almost a parody of T2, but that was hands over fist what McG and Brancato/Ferris pushed out. The tone was nothing close to Terminator to me, it was Mad Max almost in nature. The entire aesthetic of TS was terrible, and not close to what T1 and T2 had set for the look of the future the feel of it. I remember Cameron always put in his scripts "Time frozen in hell" And to me it just looked like a Call of Duty game with rubble everywhere, no character to it.




EDIT: Also how the hell did Skynet know/care who Kyle Reese was. He was born after the war it said in T1 there is no records of him. And even the records of Sarah talking about him/him in the police station is still irrelevant. "Almost all the records were lost in the war." Skynet did not know what Sarah looked like, only her first and last name and where she lived: LA. And yet somehow in TS Skynet knows Reese is John's father, and somehow knows what he looks like which is even more ridiculousness. It just made no sense

Salvation WAS a new (bold) vision and I can really see why they did it. The prior films had been heavy in future flash forwards and the audience was primed for a more comprehensive look. Not to mention it was an adequate way to plan for sequels sans arnold.

..I do think the plan had some of what you say in mind, that mutliple timelines ad nauseum would confuse the viewer..so maybe things could be set in this more stable timeline... I think the "call of duty" feel is just a sign and symptom of different more current military tactics, gear, terminology etc.. so pull your head out of "call of duty" and realize there have been like "wars and stuff" that something like call of duty is based on.

I think mainly the vision seemed different because it was mostly set during the day...the night scenes did still have the same feel as the old looks.

I'm not going to say TS didnt have some faults..but I did enjoy it.

 

[Solidus]

-You seem to think everybody can't get what your trying to say...people are just disagreeing with you man.

-your take on the end of T2 is somewhat accurate , but it is strongly implied there is a firm possibility the timeline has changed. They keep it open and it is by design.

-your thoughts on time travel are your own take..don't try to pass them off as absolute fact. They never iron out that there is no possibility of multiple timelines..and as I said I feel they do play up a strong possibility of this at the end of T2.

-multiple timelines are a non issue in T1..and I do feel they are not entirely discounted in T2.

-I don't think any of the "plot holes" in T3 and TS were not adequately explained within the films...they didn't really hurt the films...other things hurt these films...especially that they "were not T2"...

Honestly I felt T3 was a good flick, but it was hurt by an aged Arnold, non-charismatic John Connor (although he's a solid actor), and the film was essentially a re-hashed albeit well done re-romp of T2. Again, I do think it was still a very solid flick...but "not nohow" T2.


Salvation WAS a new (bold) vision and I can really see why they did it. The prior films had been heavy in future flash forwards and the audience was primed for a more comprehensive look. Not to mention it was an adequate way to plan for sequels sans arnold.

..I do think the plan had some of what you say in mind, that mutliple timelines ad nauseum would confuse the viewer..so maybe things could be set in this more stable timeline... I think the "call of duty" feel is just a sign and symptom of different more current military tactics, gear, terminology etc.. so pull your head out of "call of duty" and realize there have been like "wars and stuff" that something like call of duty is based on.


I'm not going to say TS didnt have some faults..but I did enjoy it.

I'm not going to lie, Asteroid is disagreeing with me and that's fine. But I've had trouble in the past explaining this to others, so I sometimes feel that people are not on the same page with me. I can tell now he is, however, he is pulling in T3 and TS to the mix, when I'm talking originally how Cameron envisioned it.

It is clear as a bell that after T2 the new writers went with the idea that everything that happened in T1 and T2 helped shift the timeline. Which of course really IMO is very very wrong. Cameron did not mean for it like that, and these guys Brancato and Ferris did it as extremely lazy writing. Just change the timeline. Technically if the timeline was shifted a lot of things would have changed in T2 but they did not.

Too many sci-fi's use the cliche changing timelines. That is why Terminator and T2 really asked questions about "fate" "no fate" T1 gave hope, T2 took it away. I can see how some like the idea that timelines change.

Honestly I would not be as mad about small plotholes if the films were actually good, But T3 and TS especially were poorly made films, terribly written, and directed. They could have been so much more. While I'm on that topic the view of the TS look, I really don't care as much, that's not how the future looked in T1-T3, they changed it. Which is fine, but to me it looked much worse. People for the majority did not like TS and T3, that was clear from vastly slipping BO numbers, and more so by critics slamming it.

But I'm sorry I do see them as facts. T1 and T2 were made to be like a loop where it happened forever. That is why Cameron changed the Future Coda. Now of course it's not fact because T3 and TS changed that and made it clear that alternate timelines were invented. So it's a Yes/No answer for me. Originally it was one way, and they shoehorned in the cliche time travel changing time thing. And that bums me out.

That's why I think they need to start fresh, and Megan did say they are going to start from scratch, and I hope for a reboot.

So ya, they are alternate timelines....now. But originally they were not, you can fit that into them now, even with all the plotholes and be happy with it. But myself and many other fans never were. It's what made Terminator so unique was it's interesting idea that you can't change your fate, and your attempt to change it, really is what caused what always happened.

 

[Thundercrack85]

What is interesting is that it never occurred to any of these writers, that the original Skynet (the one from Terminator 1 and 2) may have sent back more than two terminators.

Instead of ignoring canon, and making a new Skynet, they could have just gone with that.

 

[Solidus]

What is interesting is that it never occurred to any of these writers, that the original Skynet (the one from Terminator 1 and 2) may have sent back more than two terminators.

Instead of ignoring canon, and making a new Skynet, they could have just gone with that.

Well the T-X was proof of that and I was never mad about that concept. But there was a limit. Because then he could have sent back an army. It was in his dying moments that he sent them back. But ya I never had a problem that he may have sent back more then two. That was never a plothole nor a problem to me.

 

[Zanham]

I think the best way to rationalize continuity for this series is this:

There is more than one John Connor in that world. Even more, the real John Connor went on to utilize various members of the resistance as 'decoy Connor' in order to throw off would be Terminators. As for the different appearances of what is supposed to be a machine that doesn't age, it's already been accepted that there is/was a real person with the appearance whom the machines were modeled after. Maybe the guy has an ego and wanted multiple versions of himself.

Based on that, they could bring back all three previous John Connor decoys, the REAL John Connor, and maybe even a Sarah Connor. And of course that guy who played the original Terminator could be brought back too.

 

[Gianakin_]

Does the script also include all 6 people with the codename "James Bond"? A little espionage would be thrilling.

 

[Zanham]

Does the script also include all 6 people with the codename "James Bond"? A little espionage would be thrilling.

Oh, I'm sure one of them would be a traitor at some point.

 

[Carnotaur3]

What is about to be stated is a fan's attempt to collate everything (outside of blatant contradictions, these are films) to create a cohesive history and comprehension of the events.

Setting aside T3 and T4's execution and quality (another debate), you have to concede that both films has to push the envelop for the future war while also maintaining that T1 and T2 did exist. The only way for the films to do that is to continue on from their turn of events.

Cameron insinuated in T2 that things had changed, that the timeline was being altered before us and an unknown future was heading our way. Compare that to T1 where the inevitable future was the storm on the horizon. So what really changed between T1 and T2? It was the actions of the future characters.

Cue up T3, a direct continuation of T2 where the future war is lasting longer than it's original expiration date of 2029. It's 2032 and Connor has been assassinated. His wife, Kate, sends a Terminator back in time to protect them before Judgment Day, which used to be 1997, but is now 2003. T2's altercation has advanced human technology. Police records have now been saved to computer servers. Paper filing systems are a thing of the past. With this new knowledge, Skynet learns more than even its original incarnation. It's able to tap into other companies, and within a nano-second of being "on-line", Skynet has figured out its place in the pantheon. It knows of its past. It knows of Kyle Reese's crazy psychiatrist police interrogation video, which had been stored in LAPD office computers. It knows of Sarah Connor (which can now also explain how it figured she was in LA 1984). It knows it has sent machines in the past, so it also knows its failures. This now explains why Skynet used them as a last ditch effort (in hopes that the time traveling might actually work this time)

Cue T4. It's 2018. Connor isn't the leader of the Resistance yet. The war doesn't seem to be making as much progress as hoped and now he's found out the T-800s are coming online, several years before it was told to him on Sarah's tapes. Connor does not yet realize that he's up against an enemy now that knows just as much as him. Skynet consults with it's 2003 internet knowledge like Connor consults with his mother's tapes. Except Sarah's tapes are from a time before the changes occurred. Skynet has the advantage. But it also has no clue about what will happen with it. Marcus comes into play. A man turned to machine, used to goad Connor but ends up swinging in the Resistance favor. Even a dead man can change the course of humanity. Through Cyberdyne's Hybrid program, Skynet hoped to be able to assimilate the rest of humanity into their fold. For what purposes, they aren't yet clear. In earlier incarnations of the Terminator Salvation script, Skynet's mission was to save humanity, even from itself. So assimilating people into Skynet was a way of bringing humanity closer to perfection and a way of life without the need of war. In this altered timeline, with forces on both sides, Skynet is attempting to change the future because it knows it fails and Connor is attempting to revert the future back to the time the Resistance won.

If you look at it like this, neither T3 nor T4 ignore T2. T2 was responsible for their thought processes.

 

[Solidus]

That's not a bad idea, but it still gets to "convoluted". What made Terminator unique was that it was a loop. I'm sorry I still don't think Cameron at all was saying the events of T1 changed the events of T2. However, not bad ideas, I just think to keep it simpler, and unique the circular time travel theory is much more interesting/what I feel Cameron was saying with the original films.

 

[Carnotaur3]

That's not a bad idea, but it still gets to "convoluted". What made Terminator unique was that it was a loop. I'm sorry I still don't think Cameron at all was saying the events of T1 changed the events of T2. However, not bad ideas, I just think to keep it simpler, and unique the circular time travel theory is much more interesting/what I feel Cameron was saying with the original films.

Cameron changed his loop theory with T2. If you can't recognize that, then you haven't really paid attention to his intentions. Look at this alternate future coda ending for T2. Judgment Day came and went. Connor is a Senator fighting the bill that will pass for Artificial Intelligence. They're still fighting! The war could still potentially happen. But if it does, it'll happen much differently, accounting for the changes in time.

Time travel makes things convoluted.

 

[Solidus]

The future coda was showing if the future had changed, if timelines were actually changed. Cutting that is nothing but proof that he knew judgment day had to happen when it always was going to happen. Connor would not be alive without Skynet. So if they change the future.... John Connor would no longer exist.! It's pretty simple. Kyle Reese was his father. If there is no time machine war=no Skynet=no time Machine=no Kyle Reese coming back and impregnating Sarah. Which of course = No John Connor.

When I was writing T3.5 (man that's been a while remember the T3.com days?)and actually for along time figured out ways to make the alternate timelines work, and I know you remember that of me. So I'm not saying that the alternate timeline can't work. Even though TS really messed it up and took it to levels that just became ridiculous. So after that I kinda just said no Cameron's way was the best way. So I did realize later especially after TS, is that the timelines got too screwed up and the deleting of the Future Coda showed that you can't change your fate. John will always be the leader of the Resistance. And Skynet will nuke the world.

And I think people make time travel convoluted. What I loved about T1 and T2's no fate change is it made it simple/unique What I'm talking about with the "loop" of T1 and T2 is you can't change time, you can't change your fate. Because what you go back in time to change...actually causes what always happened to happen. Skynet sending back a T-800 to kill Sarah, created him in the first place. The chip of the T-800 did not "advance it" there was no where in T1 or T2 that was said. It was always indicated just from the scenes that the chip/arm was always what created Skynet, not advance the timeline.

 

[Carnotaur3]

The future coda was showing if the future had changed, if timelines were actually changed. Cutting that is nothing but proof that he knew judgment day had to happen when it always was going to happen.

No, cutting it was - in James Cameron's own words - about not handing over an ending that is "wrapped in a pretty bow." Basically, it would be like Nolan letting that one shot in Inception linger on the leaning top as it falls from the table and Cobb wakes up in his bed in cold sweat. It's not necessary to the telling of the story that we know because the themes of the film are about hope for the future, rather than dreading the future (i.e. T1).

If anything, the future coda sums up Cameron's intentions with the picture when he was making it. He sensed the happy ending for Sarah and John, he just didn't want the movie to show it.

 

[Solidus]

No, cutting it was - in James Cameron's own words - about not handing over an ending that is "wrapped in a pretty bow." Basically, it would be like Nolan letting that one shot in Inception linger on the leaning top as it falls from the table and Cobb wakes up in his bed in cold sweat. It's not necessary to the telling of the story that we know because the themes of the film are about hope for the future, rather than dreading the future (i.e. T1).

If anything, the future coda sums up Cameron's intentions with the picture when he was making it. He sensed the happy ending for Sarah and John, he just didn't want the movie to show it.

I agree/disagree. He cut it because it would show that the timeline was altered. And yet he kept it open because you could have made T3 without changing the dates. Have it take place in 1997, Skynet goes online, does what he was destined to do. I do think there may have been hints of hope, but I still don't think it means it was changed.

It would have been simpler and not gotten so complex where it began to contradict itself. To me the cutting was that he did not change the future, and yes it is unknown but as far as T2 went you really had no idea if they changed it or not. To me T3 should have gone from that, it happens in 97 and the rest is history. Cameron was planning on T3 so yes it would have continued but it did not need to do the delayed timeline then creating a whole convoluted subplot to try and explain it.

I just still think the simple way would have been the easiest.

On another note long time no see my old friend and hope all is well.

 

[Carnotaur3]

I agree/disagree. He cut it because it would show that the timeline was altered. And yet he kept it open because you could have made T3 without changing the dates. Have it take place in 1997, Skynet goes online, does what he was destined to do. I do think there may have been hints of hope, but I still don't think it means it was changed.

It would have been simpler and not gotten so complex where it began to contradict itself. To me the cutting was that he did not change the future, and yes it is unknown but as far as T2 went you really had no idea if they changed it or not. To me T3 should have gone from that, it happens in 97 and the rest is history. Cameron was planning on T3 so yes it would have continued but it did not need to do the delayed timeline then creating a whole convoluted subplot to try and explain it.

I just still think the simple way would have been the easiest.

On another note long time no see my old friend and hope all is well.

You're making a larger assumption than I am here. I think Cameron completely contradicts T1 but he does it knowing that he is. T1 is during cold war and T2 is post-cold war thinking. "Aren't the Russians our friends now?" "If the Terminator can learn the value of human life... maybe we can too."

And Miles Dyson, "the man most directly responsible" for Skynet, gets his redemption by blowing himself up in a computer factory. It's all in service of the story and themes rather than the labors of time travel structure.

It's good seeing you too, Solidus!

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well the T-X was proof of that and I was never mad about that concept. But there was a limit. Because then he could have sent back an army. It was in his dying moments that he sent them back. But ya I never had a problem that he may have sent back more then two. That was never a plothole nor a problem to me.

Well no, because that terminator was sent back a whole new Skynet introduced in Terminator 3 (whose existence was never properly explained).

I think it's a bit late to have a direct sequel to Terminator 2, two decades later though.

Well, I guess Tron got away with it.