Arrow Arrow Season 3 Episode 16 the offer

[Boy Scout]

It wasn't Oliver's place to tell Lance about Sara. That was on Laurel.

I don't disagree, but it wasn't his place to participate in keeping the truth from him either. If he and Team Arrow had just stayed out of it, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Since day 1 these people have been keeping unnecessary secrets from each other, the Lance family is all about secrets and lies. Sara is alive? Lets not tell Laurel. Sara is dead? Lets not tell Quentin.

 

[Seb]

It wasn't Oliver's place to tell Lance about Sara. That was on Laurel.

See, that's something I take issue with. Is Quentin more important to Laurel than he is to Oliver? Yes. Does that mean that Oliver should defer to Laurel in every decision regarding Quentin? Hells no.

Quentin and the Arrow have worked together for a while now, Quentin's put his job on the line for the Team. He actively asked the Arrow to look out for his daughter and directly asked after her following her death. How the [expletive] is it not Oliver's place to respond except that he's a whiny baby that refuses to do the right thing unless it involves shooting someone or punching them in the face.

Here's how respecting someone's wishes goes: you respect their wishes over what they want to do with their own body and mind (Oliver refuses to let Laurel do what she wants). You do not respect their wishes if they conflict with another person's wishes, compromising their freedom. Maybe this is the Oliver the writers want, but if that's true, then they are not giving us a hero, they are giving us a violent sociopathic adrenaline junkie with a superiority complex, and that's neither Green Arrow nor engaging.

 

[JC00]

but if that's true, then they are not giving us a hero, they are giving us a violent sociopathic adrenaline junkie with a superiority complex, and that's neither Green Arrow nor engaging.

Ya that's it. Not telling Quentin makes him a violent sociopath. Guess that makes Felicity one too.

 

[Bats1690]

I don't disagree, but it wasn't his place to participate in keeping the truth from him either. If he and Team Arrow had just stayed out of it, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

What do you mean if they just stayed out of it? They never took part in hiding the truth from Lance. Hiding the fact that his daughter was dead was all Laurel. The rest of Team Arrow, specifically Oliver, had no place in telling Lance. The only person Lance deserves to hear that from is Laurel.

 

[Seb]

Ya that's it. Not telling Quentin makes him a violent sociopath. Guess that makes Felicity one too.

No, not telling Lance doesn't make him a violent sociopath, but resorting to violence in almost every situation as a way to avoid having to tell the truth or ever talk anything out really ever does. Every now and again the writers have Oliver try and use his words, but because this show is all about the fight scenes, those are also Oliver's first resort. I'm not saying talking it out with most of the bad guys would work, but there have been multiple occasions when Oliver refuses to be truthful despite it being the right thing to do and yet he pretty much leaps at an opportunity to bloody his bow (because he apparently doesn't understand that it's a ranged weapon.)

Honestly, most of this stuff doesn't bother me the first time through, but Arrow is not a 'watch twice for hidden meanings' kind of show, it's a 'watch twice to see all the mistakes you missed' kind of show.

(Felicity obviously isn't a violent sociopath, but designing a voice replicator to help Laurel trick Lance, a guy who has shown a lot of trust in Felicity more than any of the Team, showed a startling lack of judgement or compassion.)

 

[Seb]

What do you mean if they just stayed out of it? They never took part in hiding the truth from Lance. Hiding the fact that his daughter was dead was all Laurel. The rest of Team Arrow, specifically Oliver, had no place in telling Lance. The only person Lance deserves to hear that from is Laurel.

Could you please explain how this works? Sure, it should have come from Laurel, but if she's refusing to do so then surely the next logical step is for someone else to tell him, not for Felicity to collate clips of Sara speaking so that Laurel can lie to her father's face. I get respecting Laurel's wishes, but what about respecting Lance?

To me, this is the exact opposite of when Thea found out she killed Sara. Her response was to tell everyone, regardless of the repercussions and the instructions of her compulsive liar of a brother.

 

[Bats1690]

Could you please explain how this works? Sure, it should have come from Laurel, but if she's refusing to do so then surely the next logical step is for someone else to tell him, not for Felicity to collate clips of Sara speaking so that Laurel can lie to her father's face. I get respecting Laurel's wishes, but what about respecting Lance?

To me, this is the exact opposite of when Thea found out she killed Sara. Her response was to tell everyone, regardless of the repercussions and the instructions of her compulsive liar of a brother.

As I've said multiple times, Oliver has no business telling Lance something that should come from his own daughter. That responsibility was on Laurel. If Laurel wanted to hide it then that's her priority. It's not Oliver's place to go behind someones back and tell someone something that shouldn't be coming from him in the first place. Oliver isn't in anyway to blame here.

 

[Pokkle]

As I've said multiple times, Oliver has no business telling Lance something that should come from his own daughter. That responsibility was on Laurel. If Laurel wanted to hide it then that's her priority. It's not Oliver's place to go behind someones back and tell someone something that shouldn't be coming from him in the first place. Oliver isn't in anyway to blame here.

The Arrow help Laurel's lies.
And, before Oliver already lie once about when and where she "die", when he tell everyone she died on the Gambit.

 

[Primal Slayer]

What do you mean if they just stayed out of it? They never took part in hiding the truth from Lance. Hiding the fact that his daughter was dead was all Laurel. The rest of Team Arrow, specifically Oliver, had no place in telling Lance. The only person Lance deserves to hear that from is Laurel.

So i guess you missed the episode where they set up a voice box or whatever to duplicate Saras voice so Laurel could talk to him as Sara? That's being part of it. They knew she died, they were trying to track down her killer, that makes her part of it. It is the same as being an accessory to murder or any other crime. If you know something is happening/had happened and you don't do anything about it, then it makes you just as responsible.

Laurel should be the one to tell her father but if she isn't going to do it then someone else should've stepped up to the plate. TA/Dinah took on that burden and became part of the problem the minute they found out and did nothing about it.

 

[Bats1690]

Oliver never helped Laurel lie to Lance about Sara dying (to be clear I'm talking about when she really did die this season). Not telling someone something doesn't equate to lying. The one who flat out lied to Lance was Laurel.

And like I said, Oliver has no business telling Lance something that should come from Laurel.

 

[Bats1690]

So i guess you missed the episode where they set up a voice box or whatever to duplicate Saras voice so Laurel could talk to him as Sara? That's being part of it. They knew she died, they were trying to track down her killer, that makes her part of it. It is the same as being an accessory to murder or any other crime. If you know something is happening/had happened and you don't do anything about it, then it makes you just as responsible.

I'm talking specifically about Oliver and Oliver wasn't even around at that time, so my point still stands.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Oliver knew that Laurel was lying to Lance thus he became part of the lie.

I'm talking specifically about Oliver and Oliver wasn't even around at that time, so my point still stands.

yet

What do you mean if they just stayed out of it? They never took part in hiding the truth from Lance. Hiding the fact that his daughter was dead was all Laurel. The rest of Team Arrow, specifically Oliver, had no place in telling Lance. The only person Lance deserves to hear that from is Laurel.

But Quentin has every right to be pissed at Arrow just as he has every right to be pissed at Laurel. Arrow/Oliver knew Sara was dead, Arrow/Oliver knew Laurel wasn't telling her father, Arrow/Oliver did nothing about it. As I said, the wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing. If Laurel wouldn't tell her father, then Oliver or Dinah or Felicity, any one of them should instead of playing along.

 

[Bats1690]

Oliver knew that Laurel was lying to Lance thus he became part of the lie.

And as I've said multiple times, he had no business telling him something that should come from Laurel. Look if you guys don't like my opinion then so be it, but it's not changing.

 

[Primal Slayer]

You are giving your opinion and we are giving ours, it's a two way street.

But the key word is always should have. Of course she is the one who should have told her father but if she isn't then someone else needed to.

 

[Bats1690]

Oliver knew that Laurel was lying to Lance thus he became part of the lie.


yet


But Quentin has every right to be pissed at Arrow just as he has every right to be pissed at Laurel. Arrow/Oliver knew Sara was dead, Arrow/Oliver knew Laurel wasn't telling her father, Arrow/Oliver did nothing about it. As I said, the wrong thing done for the right reason is still the wrong thing. If Laurel wouldn't tell her father, then Oliver or Dinah or Felicity, any one of them should instead of playing along.

None of them had any obligation to tell him nor was it their business to tell.

You are giving your opinion and we are giving ours, it's a two way street.

But the key word is always should have. Of course she is the one who should have told her father but if she isn't then someone else needed to.

As I said above, none of them are under any obligation to tell him anything. If Lance wants to be mad because people who knew didn't tell him then that's his priority. I for one don't hold Oliver responsible in anyway as it wasn't nor will it ever be his business to tell. The way I see it is stay out of it and he did exactly that.

Anyway, this is my last post on the topic as all I'm doing at this point is repeating myself at this point. You have your opinion and I've got mine. Not going to sit here and argue which one is more correct as it goes absolutely nowhere.

 

[JC00]

As I've said multiple times, Oliver has no business telling Lance something that should come from his own daughter. That responsibility was on Laurel. If Laurel wanted to hide it then that's her priority. It's not Oliver's place to go behind someones back and tell someone something that shouldn't be coming from him in the first place. Oliver isn't in anyway to blame here.

No, don't you see this is all on Oliver. He is the one that comes away looking the worst in this, more than Laurel or her mother. You know actual family members that knew she was dead and didnt tell Quentin.Oliver was suppose to go and ruin Quentin's world after he had just witnessed the guy almost die in front of him instead of letting Laurel tell her dad when she thought was the best time.

Hilarious that Oliver is taking almost as much criticism has Laurel and her mother for not telling Quentin.

 

[Pokkle]

Oliver was his ex-boyfriend, he isn't an outsider from the family.

 

[Nathan]

Oliver had every right to tell him. I'd say he was morally obligated to. Especially since he was partially responsible the first time she "died", even when Lance doesn't know it. Him and Lance also pretty much became crime fighting partners, and there was a trust. And I'm pretty sure that at one point he promised Lance to have Sara's back. So yeah, Oliver had every right. But he also wasn't wrong to respect Laurel's wishes, and wait to tell him until the time was right.

But the main issue here is that the entire story line is bs. First the whole lie gets drawn out excruciatingly long, with them then working way too hard to fake Sara being still alive, that they reached the point where no one could possibly tell him, without ending up looking like the bad guy.

And the 2nd problem, again, no one talks things out on the show. You really only have Thea on the show, running around and telling how it is, though they had her keep secrets from Oliver at first too. But so far it's been working out great for her. Laurel doesn't blame her, Nyssa didn't slit her throat the first chance she had. It's keeping quiet that causes the most problems on the show. But no one ever ****ing learns. Maybe Thea needs to continue b**ching about everyone keeping secrets, so they all finally get the gist that they should try and actually be more open.

 

[zenith16]

Oliver was his ex-boyfriend, he isn't an outsider from the family.

wrong words here never dated captain lance that make thing's even weirder the it is already. do't worry eve thouh I'm teasi we under stood what your trying to say here.

here's what should be said if they had told captain Lance they would have people that knew forensic involved with people that know detective skill which oliver & felicity both lack And felicity's have had a wasted their time with run unnecessary run around & have the DnA & degradation cause felicity took her sweet to get it to the people at star labs which isn't specialty despite the fact they did it which she should have given it to barry since he is a CSI she could have given it to them when she was there have on hand with her while the other case was being when the went to visit barry & his team .

captain lance would have both grieved but his relationship with oliver as the arrow would be questioned by cause while he didn't like the others of team arrow he still knew & left it to laruel which is fine cause she was supposed to tell him but there should have bee a dead lie i his view oliver had his had busy maki the worst poor chose with his own personal problems where Malcolm was telling it wasn't his place to tell thea she killed poor Sara as well it's always not his place?

those people his sister & the man that stood up for him so the police force would give him some Room to breath help the city where at times they can't at least when it come to fire fights raid style take downs .

captain Lance is an a when oliver had the time to think for a bit while he was talking thea or with the others in the arrow lair before they start a new case he could have asked Laural how are things with her dad if he knows yet? if she's becomes difficult, just say I'll give you time & a certain dead line.

the point is he has or had a relation ship of certain trust with captain lance they are partners in a way too.

if Laural is taking too long what happened with thea should have happened with thea . now lance will hunt him down over a frame up & have the police force find out who he is or know he has the/ a arrow costume . which should make things difficult for Oliver cause he should be watch from that point forward .

captain has guilt over letting the daughter he lost fist head back to the LOA so part of his blame deal is projection but team arrow did screw up in a lot of ways which could have bee avoided the person to blame for it all is Malcolm which will be another thin to add to that if captain lace find out or should seeing that Malcolm caused it all.

it's more then just one person's fault here . but Oliver did show he was able to break the cycles when he told thea on the island despite the poor of Excuse of it wasn't your place ? as Malcolm said . I'm sorry this is someone you deal with on an everyday basis


In order to keep the good relationship ( be they family friend or co worker of ay sort) you have with them you have to do that cause your in that kinda of relation ship with them & they have the right to know especially if they could have helped from jump. & if it's personally related to them. it was his kid .

Yeah you'll have hard time telling them that normal . but not telling him at all when some how he could have been of help from the start he's a specialist in the field of work he was a detective where he can help where your not one ......

 

[Seb]

No, don't you see this is all on Oliver. He is the one that comes away looking the worst in this, more than Laurel or her mother. You know actual family members that knew she was dead and didnt tell Quentin.Oliver was suppose to go and ruin Quentin's world after he had just witnessed the guy almost die in front of him instead of letting Laurel tell her dad when she thought was the best time.

Hilarious that Oliver is taking almost as much criticism has Laurel and her mother for not telling Quentin.

Oliver is getting more criticism because we are arguing as to whether he deserves criticism. I think everyone here already agrees that Laurel was wrong, so there's no point having a drawn out debate when everyone is already against her on this topic. Dinah is a minor character, but I think everyone here would also agree that she's definitely in the wrong.

My point about Oliver is largely based on the fact that I don't view responsibility as being transferable. If someone is drowning, there's no lifeguard and you can swim, you should save them. If there is a lifeguard, it is clearly not your responsibility, but if the lifeguard clearly has no intention of saving the person, could you honestly claim that you would let the person drown because it is not your responsibility.

As a fairer example (if anything, a less demanding one), and one that will probably split the forum in a similar way as the Oliver situation: let's say you have a good friend (Alex) in a relationship with someone you know and hang out with an OK amount, but aren't besties or anything (Jamie). If Alex cheats on Jamie and you know, but Alex repeatedly refuses to come clean and tells you to keep mum about it, should you tell Jamie the truth? I'd say yes, because to me, you have a far greater responsibility to the wronged party than to the one you are closer to.

I imagine people would be more split on the latter example, but to me the essence is the same and it also applies to the Laurel/Quentin situation.


As to the in-show repercussions, it does make the Arrow seem very untrustworthy to Lance, which is why he'll be less likely to believe Arrow when he claims that the murderous doppelganger is not just him going back to his more murderous ways.

I'll point out here that I don't think Oliver acting the way he did was bad writing, it's absolutely in keeping with his inability to talk things out. What I am saying is that it's an entirely unsympathetic character trait that makes him more unlikeable, similarly to his poor treatment of Thea and often most of Team Arrow. It's the same reason that I usually dislike Batman (I still like the books because I love his whole supporting cast and the spin-off books about them.)

Felicity being willing to deceive Lance was a little harder to buy, though, since she has a better moral compass than Oliver and Laurel.

 

[zenith16]

Oliver is getting more criticism because we are arguing as to whether he deserves criticism. I think everyone here already agrees that Laurel was wrong, so there's no point having a drawn out debate when everyone is already against her on this topic. Dinah is a minor character, but I think everyone here would also agree that she's definitely in the wrong.

My point about Oliver is largely based on the fact that I don't view responsibility as being transferable. If someone is drowning, there's no lifeguard and you can swim, you should save them. If there is a lifeguard, it is clearly not your responsibility, but if the lifeguard clearly has no intention of saving the person, could you honestly claim that you would let the person drown because it is not your responsibility.

As a fairer example (if anything, a less demanding one), and one that will probably split the forum in a similar way as the Oliver situation: let's say you have a good friend (Alex) in a relationship with someone you know and hang out with an OK amount, but aren't besties or anything (Jamie). If Alex cheats on Jamie and you know, but Alex repeatedly refuses to come clean and tells you to keep mum about it, should you tell Jamie the truth? I'd say yes, because to me, you have a far greater responsibility to the wronged party than to the one you are closer to.

I imagine people would be more split on the latter example, but to me the essence is the same and it also applies to the Laurel/Quentin situation.


As to the in-show repercussions, it does make the Arrow seem very untrustworthy to Lance, which is why he'll be less likely to believe Arrow when he claims that the murderous doppelganger is not just him going back to his more murderous ways.

I'll point out here that I don't think Oliver acting the way he did was bad writing, it's absolutely in keeping with his inability to talk things out. What I am saying is that it's an entirely unsympathetic character trait that makes him more unlikeable, similarly to his poor treatment of Thea and often most of Team Arrow. It's the same reason that I usually dislike Batman (I still like the books because I love his whole supporting cast and the spin-off books about them.)

Felicity being willing to deceive Lance was a little harder to buy, though, since she has a better moral compass than Oliver and Laurel.

Well said & it already reminded me of what the characters in in Seinfeld were arrested for in the series final too. It's not my responsibility only gets you so far. It didn't work with when the Nazi's were taking people & other people could have stopped it.

it doesn't work for a lot of stuff any more.

If you can do something when no ones there or there are & it is they're responsibility to do so, but if they refuse to, are your really gonna let it happen?

 

[Seb]

I'll add one final thing: Those of us that are moaning are doing so because Oliver is a hero. I also watch The Vampire Diaries and shows like that. The difference with this kind of drama is that in TVD, it's a bunch of morally iffy people going about their supernatural lives. In Arrow, we are following a team of heroes who can and should be held to a higher moral standard than regular folk. For a hero, it shouldn't just be about not doing wrong, it's about actively doing the right thing. If a writer wants their character to be considered a hero, they need to not just let things go (looking at Malcolm here.)

 

[Loki882]

They ALL look like a-holes for not telling him. Would it have been the most "right" thing for Laurel to be the one to tell him, absolutely. But if it became clear that she WASN'T going to do it, then SOMEONE else should have. And they become active participants in the lie by helping Laurel come up with the "fake voice" device, which gives them even LESS cover morally.

Keeping him in the dark for so long was both cruel and rather stupid. Were they just hoping that he'd NEVER get wise, because that's a pretty big assumption to make.

 

[Nathan]

Honestly, I was pretty much hoping for Sara to return thanks to the Pit, without Lance ever having known that Sara actually died. Would have been hilarious.