Arrow Arrow Season 5 Episode 17: "Kapiushon"

[Slade W]

Chase still hasn't mentioned his father's name though. He said how his father suffered, but we saw 2 people in the past 2 episodes essentially die the same way. Gregor appeared to have suffered until his final breath and even Kovar was stabbed where Chase implied (said something about the aorta which runs from the heart down the midsection, though it's deep).

I feel like the Claybourne mention was to throw us off.

He mentioned water filling his lungs. I don't remember any other character falling into water before dying.

 

[Loki882]

I'm pretty sure that Oliver is conning Chase. He doesn't really believe it, he's just pretending to for now. At least that's what it logically be.

Honestly, I cannot think of a single person that Oliver killed in Season 1 who was completely innocent. Nor did he ever seem to be enjoying it. He simply saw it as a necessary evil.

Oh and Evelyn is back, along with her completely nonsensical motivations. Again, the girl who hates Oliver because he's a "serial killer" is working for an even WORSE serial killer, who HAS killed innocent people. Is she meant to come across as this stupid, or is it just bad writing?

 

[Jedi Arrow]

I think Evelyn is supposed to be either hypocritical or extremely naïve–or both. Yes, it's incredibly obvious that she's supposed to be this dumb, because she is working for a serial killer. Either that, or she's a double agent, or something. But didn't she originally blame the Green Arrow for her family's death? If so, maybe she still has some of that resentment and she's justifying working with Prometheus because while Prometheus may be a serial killer, Oliver's the one responsible for her parents' death. Or something like that.

 

[Loki882]

They'd better have something interesting planned for her, because right now she's just irritating.

 

[metaphysician]

Again, why is it dumb that Evelyn is working with Chase? Her original motivation was exactly the same as his: revenge. Her vendetta against Ollie isn't based in morality, its based in offense at his hypocrisy. All her working with Chase says, is that she's left the moral event horizon way behind. Its not dumb, it advances her goals just fine.

Anyway, this is probably the best episode of Arrow yet. Also, I am not sure if there is any intelligent coherent way to continue the show at this point, because it has done such a successful job in demonstrating that Ollie Is Not A Hero.

 

[KnightErrant]

Well anti-hero aspect can work ok I suppose but it does deviate off from the basic story of the GA,then again this GA is in one verse and not in the movie-verse.

 

[Slade W]

After what they had Oliver just admit, I am interested in where they are going with it. I thought he was just going to admit he was a murderer and not a hero (i.e. referring to times he killed when there were better options, and that making him similar to a lot of his enemies). I did not expect him to say he "liked" it.

 

[Lencho01]

I thought this was an interesting episode in terms of finding out Oliver likes to kill. Didn't think he liked or disliked it. Just did it.

 

[Jedi Arrow]

After what they had Oliver just admit, I am interested in where they are going with it. I thought he was just going to admit he was a murderer and not a hero (i.e. referring to times he killed when there were better options, and that making him similar to a lot of his enemies). I did not expect him to say he "liked" it.

That's the thing, though Oliver in the flashbacks and in S1 was a monster. He's not now. Even if he liked it, I'm sure he has consciously suppressed those feelings ever since Tommy died. But what would bring back something like that? Tragedy. Remember every time he's ever killed/threatened to kill someone: when they hurt someone he loves. He killed Vertigo for threatening Felicity. He threatened to kill Slade after he killed Moira (didn't follow through). He killed some Ghosts after Felicity was crippled. He killed Darhk for killing Laurel. And he started killing again for a brief time after Laurel died. The only kill he's made that was based more on necessity than on revenge was Ra's.

So I don't think Oliver enjoys killing anymore, per se, except maybe the deepest, darkest recesses of his mind, but he's fully aware that he used to. Look at the flashbacks: after he killed Fyers, that's when it really started. He pounded that guy's brains in early in S2. He killed Ivo. He killed Slade. He killed a drug dealer for selling to his sister. He tortured Shrieve brutally for killing Akio. He killed Taiana's brother in self-defense but he killed Conklin (as much for his own personal hatred of the man, I think, as for the other prisoners' sake), he killed Baron Reiter, he killed Taiana. At this point, all he even knows is killing. Then we get to S5 when he's trained by the Bratva to be even more of a selfish killing machine, and then by Talia to channel that bloodlust into "justice."

Looking at all that, honestly, it's not strange that Oliver enjoys killing. Rather, it's a miracle that he was able to stop. That, I think, is what turned Oliver from a vigilante to a hero. He saw the monster he was (through Tommy's eyes) and changed. And sometimes that monster slips through, but with the help of his friends, usually Diggle and Felicity, Oliver has come a long way in turning that around.

 

[revenant78]

I don't post frequently (haven't since last year I think), but man this brought me out of retirement. Incredible episode. It really sat with me the last few days. I have to say, that was some of the strongest (and boldest) writing we've gotten in this series. A number of you have asked the question, "where do we go from here?" after Oliver's confession and I'm wondering the same.

I think Chase/Prometheus might be my favorite Arrow villain. These past few episodes have been incredibly strong and Segarra's performance has been spectacular (almost too good for the show to be honest).

 

[Dark Raven]

I think Oliver should turn himself in now or get Chase to kill him after telling him he's failed this city.

Is he going to become Green Arrow again and stop the man who helped him admit he has a problem? Now Chase should torture the rest of Team Arrow to get them to admit their wrong doing. Felicity hacks because she likes it, not because she thinks it helps people.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Honestly, I cannot think of a single person that Oliver killed in Season 1 who was completely innocent. Nor did he ever seem to be enjoying it. He simply saw it as a necessary evil.

Nowhere in this episode did it claim the people he killed were completely innocent. Also, while he didn't show pleasure from his kills, he also didn't show any regret either. I don't think this is at all inconsistent with season one.

That being said, this season has implied more killing in cold blood than I recall from season one. As I recall, most of the people on the list were threatened and/or harmed, but not killed. They were crossed off the list when they were made to do something to redeem their sins (such as transfer money). Oliver killed, but it was henchmen he killed who were prepared to shoot at him, not their boss. The initial flashback did address this where Chase's father refused, even after being threatened, to change his ways. It makes sense Ollie would follow through, but, for a guy who liked killing, he didn't do it as much as this season has implied.

Once again, I don't think it's inconsistent, just overstated.

 

[Joe Von Zombie]

Stephen Amell has come a long way. He ain't winning any awards anytime soon, but he's good.

 

[shabadoo25]

This descent into deep darkness (with some retconning) might be the plot device for seeking the light that returns us to Olicity.

 

[Dark Raven]

This descent into deep darkness (with some retconning) might be the plot device for seeking the light that returns us to Olicity.

Well then Felicity has to go through an arc (probably next season) to unhook herself from Helix.

 

[shabadoo25]

Well then Felicity has to go through an arc (probably next season) to unhook herself from Helix.

I'm sure. Helix may be the next League of Assassins, in a sense.

 

[Gallops]

I'm sure. Helix may be the next League of Assassins, in a sense.

They could almost be worse, being how they can hack into ANYTHING.

If Green Arrow and friends go against Helix next season, it's going to be the season Oliver is officially outed as the Green Arrow, unless it happens with Prometheus this season.

If Helix is the big bad organization in season 6, there has to be some sort of physical threat.

 

[shabadoo25]

They could almost be worse, being how they can hack into ANYTHING.

If Green Arrow and friends go against Helix next season, it's going to be the season Oliver is officially outed as the Green Arrow, unless it happens with Prometheus this season.

If Helix is the big bad organization in season 6, there has to be some sort of physical threat.

It also depends on what they do with Katie Cassidy, who is coming back. See the story I posted in her thread.

 

[Slade W]

“We’re super proud of this episode,” executive producer Wendy Mericle says. “It was written by Brian Ford Sullivan & Emilio Ortega Aldrich, and they did an amazing job with the script. Stephen Amell gave this amazing performance. We were asking a lot of him. It’s a really dark episode, it’s probably one of the darkest episodes we’ve done in the history of the show, and that’s a pretty high bar on ‘Arrow,’ and it just came out amazingly … It’s Oliver’s lowest point of the season, and it’s a pretty great story.”

“Prometheus’ whole goal has been to mess with Oliver’s head this entire season,” Mericle says. “He’s not interested in killing Oliver, he’s interested in getting him to break down to the point where he’ll kill himself. That’s been his objective. The other side of that is he really believes and wants Oliver to believe that everybody he’s touched and everybody he loves is going to end up dead or really messed up.”

http://screenertv.com/television/arrow-showrunner-teases-oliver-promethus-battle-wills/

 

[Dark Raven]

They could almost be worse, being how they can hack into ANYTHING.

If Green Arrow and friends go against Helix next season, it's going to be the season Oliver is officially outed as the Green Arrow, unless it happens with Prometheus this season.

If Helix is the big bad organization in season 6, there has to be some sort of physical threat.

I prefer Oliver doesn't go against Helix. That feels he's fighting an organisation full of Felicitys.

If it's Olicity in the bedroom and Helicity as the enemy next season, then that will really jump the shark.

 

[Slade W]

I prefer Oliver doesn't go against Helix. That feels he's fighting an organisation full of Felicitys.

If it's Olicity in the bedroom and Helicity as the enemy next season, then that will really jump the shark.

That would be a unique situation. Normally people like the main Arrow villains because they are quite cool, amongst other reasons. This would be the first time people genuinely despise the Arrow villain.

 

[Slade W]

I posted this elsewhere, but may as well post it here too, as this was the episode it happened in.

I knew it was only a matter of time before someone did this.

https://youtu.be/pVaC7d9O-10

 

[Mask&Cape]

Nowhere in this episode did it claim the people he killed were completely innocent. Also, while he didn't show pleasure from his kills, he also didn't show any regret either. I don't think this is at all inconsistent with season one.

That being said, this season has implied more killing in cold blood than I recall from season one. As I recall, most of the people on the list were threatened and/or harmed, but not killed. They were crossed off the list when they were made to do something to redeem their sins (such as transfer money). Oliver killed, but it was henchmen he killed who were prepared to shoot at him, not their boss. The initial flashback did address this where Chase's father refused, even after being threatened, to change his ways. It makes sense Ollie would follow through, but, for a guy who liked killing, he didn't do it as much as this season has implied.

Once again, I don't think it's inconsistent, just overstated.

Oliver did kill a lot of people though and he showed no remorse, so I do think it matches up.

What didn't match up was killing Kovar's minion in the flashback. Torturing him until he talked - yes - , but skinning him? There is no way that that matches up at all. That is cruelty on a level for the killers in Hannibal. I don't know what the producers and writers were thinking, and I do not understand why Amell himself did not see how it doesn't work.

Also, I think that an event that actually breaks Oliver's spirit warranted more time than a single episode. The fact that he broke so easily has me suspecting that it is a ruse of some kind - although I can't think to what end.

A good episode though and Amell & Segarra did a fine job. While double checking that I Segarra's name write I discovered that the Prometheus voice actor is Trek's own Worf. Was that obvious to everyone else? I did not recognise it

As to the arc as a whole, the fact that Chase was willing to kill his wife (whom he seems to to have cared for, although his lack of mourning has me uncertain) leaves a major problem. Why did he never kill one of Green Arrow's sidekicks? Why not go after Thea?

 

[Mask&Cape]

They could almost be worse, being how they can hack into ANYTHING.

If Green Arrow and friends go against Helix next season, it's going to be the season Oliver is officially outed as the Green Arrow, unless it happens with Prometheus this season.

If Helix is the big bad organization in season 6, there has to be some sort of physical threat.

It wouldn't necessarily mean Oliver would be outed. In order for Helix to know Oliver's secret there would have to be a digital foot print of some kind.

I'm guessing Oliver has been clever enough not to put anything on a computer.

I think that Helix would make for a good Big Bad. The fact that Oliver can't physically fight them would make a interesting change. I don't think they could go for a whole season. Maybe half a season and after Christmas a new Big Bad.

I'd like Arrow, Flash and Supergirl to have multiple big bad with smaller arcs (that overlap or cause a villain team up) next season. I think Helix could be a good foe in a situation like that.

 

[Dark Raven]

It wouldn't necessarily mean Oliver would be outed. In order for Helix to know Oliver's secret there would have to be a digital foot print of some kind.

I'm guessing Oliver has been clever enough not to put anything on a computer.

I think that Helix would make for a good Big Bad. The fact that Oliver can't physically fight them would make a interesting change. I don't think they could go for a whole season. Maybe half a season and after Christmas a new Big Bad.

I'd like Arrow, Flash and Supergirl to have multiple big bad with smaller arcs (that overlap or cause a villain team up) next season. I think Helix could be a good foe in a situation like that.

Helix already said they knew the identities of Mr Terrific and Overwatch, and hinted they probably knew the rest of the team.