Comics ASM 581 the uninspired super lame explanation why Harry Osborn is alive

[Themanofbat]

Here's a question that's just dawned on me, and maybe some folks can provide a possible answer: what does Norman Osborn gain by letting the world think his son actually died? Obviously, Norman had his reasons for letting Spider-Man think he died after the Gwen Stacy's death, but what advantage does Norman have letting Spider-Man believe Harry died from the experimental Goblin formula? And making the world believe Harry was dead must not have been that important because, a few years later, Harry shows up alive and well for all his friends and loved ones to see. Seriously, I cannot for the life of me think of a possible logical reason for why Norman went through all this trouble to orchestrate this elaborate scheme which includes paying off medical examiners, hiring Mysterio, faking medical records, getting another body to substitute for Harry, paying off psychiatrists, sending Harry to convalesce in European detox clinics, lying in public, and lying in his own diary other than he's nuts.

Well, having Peter think his best friend "died" might make Norman think that's good, y'know... making your arch-enemy "gieve" for nothing...

 

[Themanofbat]

Oh, my goodness. Am I turning into MOTB or iloveclones?

clonesy has more hair, but I'm much better looking in spite of my baldness...

 

[Themanofbat]

Well did that even happen now since no one ever knew Peter was Spider-man. or is it that everyone just forgot with BND, but if they knew prior to the unmasking BND made them forget anyways?

I understand it but it makes no sense

Everybody prior to OMD that knew his identity knew his identity... Peter then did something during the 100 days of not being Spider-Man to make everybody forget his identity, as well as making everybody not even "suspect" that he's Spider-Man...

 

[USMC]

Everybody prior to OMD that knew his identity knew his identity... Peter then did something during the 100 days of not being Spider-Man to make everybody forget his identity, as well as making everybody not even "suspect" that he's Spider-Man...

Which doesn't explain in the least why he would be even remotely "buddies" with Harry Osborn today.

 

[Themanofbat]

Which doesn't explain in the least why he would be even remotely "buddies" with Harry Osborn today.

Peter has always turned a blind eye to his "friends gone bad" or even his "friend's dads gone bad"... he was buddies with Harry after he almost killed Aunt May (or possibly Flash or Mary Jane) in ASM #137, so why wouldn't he try to rekindle his friendship with him now?

Not to mention, keep your friends close and keep your enemies closer... with Pete hanging around Harry, not only does he get to hang with his old "buddy", but he can keep an eye on him in case the ghost of the Green Goblin comes back, or even keep and eye out on his Dad... whom he knows is a real motherf%$*&%^&%(*^% and in spite of whatever "magicks" Peter made on everybody, he's going to be pretty paranoid about it, based on the too many times Norman turned into the Goblin in the past, so there's a good two-fold reason why he'd still want to maintain his friendship with Harry...

And besides, no matter how much bad stuff Harry did to him, Pete's a pretty forgiving friend...

 

[RAMORE]

This is exactly how I feel about the whole world of Spidey right now. I can't read, enjoy or buy spidey to they fix this crap storm they started.

 

[Themanofbat]

This is exactly how I feel about the whole world of Spidey right now. I can't read, enjoy or buy spidey to they fix this crap storm they started.

Buy other comics...

 

[RAMORE]

I do. I haven't bought a single spidey comic sense and I won't. I do read spidergirl though which is more classic spidey than spidey. I also read a ton of other things however my favorite character has been stunted and while it's been a while i'm still pissed!

 

[Themanofbat]

I do. I haven't bought a single spidey comic sense and I won't. I do read spidergirl though which is more classic spidey than spidey. I also read a ton of other things however my favorite character has been stunted and while it's been a while i'm still pissed!

Hahaha... I get a kick out of people who claim that Spider-Girl is great because it reminds them of classic Spidey, but since BND returns Spider-Man to his more "classic" roots, suddenly it's crap?



By the way, Spider-Girl has been been the best of all the Spider-Man books for the last 10 years, even during the mighty progressive JMS era...

 

[kguillou]

TMOB i gotta ask, why did you hate JMS' run so much? I definitely agree that Sins past and The Other were complete utter crap, but JMS really took Spiderman into new territory at the beginning of his run. I would say the first few years of his run were miles better than Spider-girl. Thats just my opinion. He PROGRESSED Peter Parker's story.

 

[Themanofbat]

TMOB i gotta ask, why did you hate JMS' run so much? I definitely agree that Sins past and The Other were complete utter crap, but JMS really took Spiderman into new territory at the beginning of his run. I would say the first few years of his run were miles better than Spider-girl. Thats just my opinion. He PROGRESSED Peter Parker's story.

I don't "hate" his run, but it really wasn't all that great...

In fact, of the 10 writers to ever grace their names as writer of ASM (not including the BND guys), he ranks in 9th place behind Mackie...

1. Stan Lee
2. Marv Wolfman
3. Roger Stern
4. Len Wein
5. JM Demattheis
6. Gerry Conway
7. Tom DeFalco
8. David Michelinie
9. JMS
10. Howard Mackie

In practically ALL of his arcs, including the first Morlun arc, he builds up a great story and then fumbles the ball on the last part, making me think "wtf"? Read Sins Past, the Book of Ezekiel, even the New Avengers arc (which was good)... they all end on a deflated note...

And yes, he took Peter into new unchartered territory when he first came on board: he made Peter a teacher and then did nothing with it... no new supporting cast... heck, he practically abandonned the old one and just focused on Peter, Mary Jane & Aunt May ... that's it, that's all.

He showed little to no respect for Spider-Man's continuity; the jab at Ben Reilly, he couldn't place Sins Past into history and then pointed out AFTERWARDS when a Spidey site picked particular events where it might have works that "See? See? It can fit into continuity! Because this on-line Spidey fan made it work!!!" , calling May's maiden name "Fitzgerald", etc...

There were some gems in his run, and he really nailed some good characterization on many occasions (one of his stronegr suits), but he really failed at general good storytelling as well as this alleged "growth" that people clamour on about... unless you want to discuss how he was planning hisstories to fit into the futuristic version of the Spidey we saw gunned down in ASM #500, which is something JMS himself said he wanted to strive for in an on-line interview... yeah, that's some major league progressive growth right there...

Anyhoo, you asked...

Cheers,

Mike

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

2. Marve Wolfman

There's no "e" in "Marv"...

 

[Themanofbat]

There's no "e" in "Marv"...

I was typing fast...

Merry X-Mas Cap...

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

JMS's problem was he was a good writer. Just not a good Spider-Man writer. He would have been better suited writing an ongoing Dr Strange book, but unfortunately that kinda book can't survive in today's marketplace. I hear he's not bad on Thor, but I don't read that Asgardian nonsense.

I agree with alot of what TMOB said. His characterization, Aunt May especially, was great (even though I felt his dialogue was occasionally too overwrought and melodramatic), but his stories usually dropped the ball near the climax. Also, people like to complain about the BND writers not showing respect to continuity, but JMS made them look like pikers.... I mean, the guy acted like he was the second writer after Stan Lee himself. He pretty much knew nothing about the character's backstory that wasn't in the first 122 issues. And he didn't really respect, acknowledge or follow up on any stories previous great scribes laid the groundwork for. Sometimes his stories would even contradict them. And that was before a deal with Mephisto. He also had a bit of an ego that manifested itself in his writing... "He hit harder than anyone who's ever hit me before!" (re: Morlun)

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

I was typing fast...

Merry X-Mas Cap...

Merry Christmas, man.

 

[Styleshift]

So in the event that what you speculate is true, what's wrong with that?

As it stands now, I wouldn't have seen that coming...

As much as I disagree with the new status quo.

He is right.

I wouldn't see that part coming.

Menace is really up in the air right now. Good mystery...

Jackpot and Harry Osborn were terrible mysteries though.

As I've said before though with Brand New Day....if they aren't beating you over the head with the subplots, they are not mentioning it at all until its reveal time.

I've come to realize that...whether they had kept the marriage or not. This new style of story telling really isn't my cup of tea. sure their have been some gems. but as a whole this series is kinda falling apart. I love the 3x a month but I still think there are too many creative hands in the pot.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

As much as I disagree with the new status quo.

He is right.

I wouldn't see that part coming.

Menace is really up in the air right now. Good mystery...

Menace is [BLACKOUT]Carlie Cooper[/BLACKOUT]. You can take that to the bank.

Jackpot and Harry Osborn were terrible mysteries though.

To paraphrase one of my favorite shows 'Home Movies', Jackpot... her introduction, her arc, her reveal, her death was a big "W... O... T.... Waste 'O Time!"

Harry was no great shakes either. But I wasn't expecting much. That kinda NEEDED to be explained. The reveal about his death was average comic malarkey, but not quite Aunt-May-is-an-actress bad. On the other hand, there was no rhyme or reason for Jackpot. I can't find one fan of her's. Maybe that's why they put the kibosh on her so quickly.

As I've said before though with Brand New Day....if they aren't beating you over the head with the subplots, they are not mentioning it at all until its reveal time.

I've come to realize that...whether they had kept the marriage or not. This new style of story telling really isn't my cup of tea. sure their have been some gems. but as a whole this series is kinda falling apart. I love the 3x a month but I still think there are too many creative hands in the pot.

Lose Bob Gale. Bring back Zeb Wells.

 

[Venom 1988]

Lose Bob Gale. Bring back Zeb Wells.

THIS

 

[UK_Stu]

I don't "hate" his run, but it really wasn't all that great...

In fact, of the 10 writers to ever grace their names as writer of ASM (not including the BND guys), he ranks in 9th place behind Mackie...

1. Stan Lee
2. Marv Wolfman
3. Roger Stern
4. Len Wein
5. JM Demattheis
6. Gerry Conway
7. Tom DeFalco
8. David Michelinie
9. JMS
10. Howard Mackie

In practically ALL of his arcs, including the first Morlun arc, he builds up a great story and then fumbles the ball on the last part, making me think "wtf"? Read Sins Past, the Book of Ezekiel, even the New Avengers arc (which was good)... they all end on a deflated note...

And yes, he took Peter into new unchartered territory when he first came on board: he made Peter a teacher and then did nothing with it... no new supporting cast... heck, he practically abandonned the old one and just focused on Peter, Mary Jane & Aunt May ... that's it, that's all.

He showed little to no respect for Spider-Man's continuity; the jab at Ben Reilly, he couldn't place Sins Past into history and then pointed out AFTERWARDS when a Spidey site picked particular events where it might have works that "See? See? It can fit into continuity! Because this on-line Spidey fan made it work!!!" , calling May's maiden name "Fitzgerald", etc...

There were some gems in his run, and he really nailed some good characterization on many occasions (one of his stronegr suits), but he really failed at general good storytelling as well as this alleged "growth" that people clamour on about... unless you want to discuss how he was planning hisstories to fit into the futuristic version of the Spidey we saw gunned down in ASM #500, which is something JMS himself said he wanted to strive for in an on-line interview... yeah, that's some major league progressive growth right there...

Anyhoo, you asked...

Cheers,

Mike

JMS's problem was he was a good writer. Just not a good Spider-Man writer. He would have been better suited writing an ongoing Dr Strange book, but unfortunately that kinda book can't survive in today's marketplace. I hear he's not bad on Thor, but I don't read that Asgardian nonsense.

I agree with alot of what TMOB said. His characterization, Aunt May especially, was great (even though I felt his dialogue was occasionally too overwrought and melodramatic), but his stories usually dropped the ball near the climax. Also, people like to complain about the BND writers not showing respect to continuity, but JMS made them look like pikers.... I mean, the guy acted like he was the second writer after Stan Lee himself. He pretty much knew nothing about the character's backstory that wasn't in the first 122 issues. And he didn't really respect, acknowledge or follow up on any stories previous great scribes laid the groundwork for. Sometimes his stories would even contradict them. And that was before a deal with Mephisto. He also had a bit of an ego that manifested itself in his writing... "He hit harder than anyone who's ever hit me before!" (re: Morlun)

Well, I think you guys have pretty much summed up my thoughts about JMS too. Good writer - not such a good spider-man writer.

Speaking of sins past - is this still in continuity? Are either of the twins alive? Or are we just supposed to forget this ever happened? Its never referenced.

 

[Venom 1988]

Speaking of sins past - is this still in continuity? Are either of the twins alive? Or are we just supposed to forget this ever happened? Its never referenced.

Its still canon, it was referenced by Norman in Thunderbolts awhile back

 

[Styleshift]

Menace is [blackout]Carlie Cooper[/blackout]. You can take that to the bank.



To paraphrase one of my favorite shows 'Home Movies', Jackpot... her introduction, her arc, her reveal, her death was a big "W... O... T.... Waste 'O Time!"

Harry was no great shakes either. But I wasn't expecting much. That kinda NEEDED to be explained. The reveal about his death was average comic malarkey, but not quite Aunt-May-is-an-actress bad. On the other hand, there was no rhyme or reason for Jackpot. I can't find one fan of her's. Maybe that's why they put the kibosh on her so quickly.





Lose Bob Gale. Bring back Zeb Wells.

I LOVE Home movies. Back when Cartoon Network was worth watching.
I agree with everything you said.

 

[TwilightPro101]

I LOVE Home movies. Back when Cartoon Network was worth watching.
I agree with everything you said.

Third that.

 

[moraldeficiency]

wow the anti JMS stuff here I think is way too harsh. Leave alone that he took ASM from an abysmal book to the forefront and I still find some of my all time favorite ASM issues coming from him. The aunt may reveal, the 911 issue, the silent issue, the NA arc, the birthday issue, the loki arc. And I loved some of the characters and concepts as well: the tailor, the bar with no name, pete as a teacher, lamont. That's not to say I didn't hate some of his stuff, but that's true for any artist I've ever encountered, but all and all he brought me back to spider-man and kept me there. And the way that man was treated was just not right. It's a shame cause I see him transferring to all dc after the twelve is over (an amazing comic) and probably handing thor off (another amazing comic) to a far inferior writer.

As for the differences between classic spider-girl and retro ASM, it's easy:

Spider-Girl is classic spider-man because it's about the core concepts in spider-man mainly power and responsibility.

ASM is retro because most of these stories could have been written virtually word for word in the 70s (I mean can anyone honestly tell me that stern story wasn't something he had written years ago and just dusted off the shelf for the filler issue?), but it lacks a responsible peter parker.

 

[Themanofbat]

wow the anti JMS stuff here I think is way too harsh. Leave alone that he took ASM from an abysmal book to the forefront and I still find some of my all time favorite ASM issues coming from him. The aunt may reveal, the 911 issue, the silent issue, the NA arc, the birthday issue, the loki arc. And I loved some of the characters and concepts as well: the tailor, the bar with no name, pete as a teacher, lamont. That's not to say I didn't hate some of his stuff, but that's true for any artist I've ever encountered, but all and all he brought me back to spider-man and kept me there. And the way that man was treated was just not right. It's a shame cause I see him transferring to all dc after the twelve is over (an amazing comic) and probably handing thor off (another amazing comic) to a far inferior writer.

As for the differences between classic spider-girl and retro ASM, it's easy:

Spider-Girl is classic spider-man because it's about the core concepts in spider-man mainly power and responsibility.

ASM is retro because most of these stories could have been written virtually word for word in the 70s (I mean can anyone honestly tell me that stern story wasn't something he had written years ago and just dusted off the shelf for the filler issue?), but it lacks a responsible peter parker.

If it's the same "bar with no name", then it's not a JMS creation... the "Bar with No Name" first appeared in Captain America (#319 maybe) in the mid 80's...

And the only reason why ASM was abysmal was because it never found any footing dince the Cloen Saga, and Mackie/Byrne jus didn't get "it"...

As I stated, there were some gems in his books, most of them being the ones you stated; The Aunt May reveal, the silent issue, the NA arc, the Digger arc, the birthday issue & the Loki arc, but for the most part, even his gems were simply above-par when compared to Spidey classics (the Aunt may reveal is the only one to really stand out in my opinion)...

And it's funny that everyone wants to throw the "it could have been told in the 70's" line because while there have been some moments, the stories feel very contemporary to me, and Stern wrote the book in the 80's, btw...

 

[moraldeficiency]

well I didn't know that at all. Cool. Still an awesome idea. The punisher is a dick.

Right no footing cause of bad storytelling and writing, new guy comes along cleans up the mess and begins making people interested in Spider-Man again. That's exactely why I was saying he's an awesome writer. Mind you I'm not saying some of his stuff was crap, some definetly was. But that's true of any artist I've ever encountered. Shakespeare wasn't always great either. In fact I can't think of any artist I've ever completely liked, and I'm pretty proud of that fact not getting blinded by liking someone so much I can't acknowledge some of their stuff is just sub-par.

We obviously differ on some of those classics. I respect them and all and love quite a few but I think sometimes people just put on the nostalgia glasses and the tint's just not reality you know? I love some of the older stories, but comparing them in quality to some more recent comics and they just don't stand except as something progressing the character in a meaningful way. But now we all know, progression bad, liferape good.

80's, 70's... the point was that was clearly a story stern wrote a long ass time ago that he just dusted off and handed in. Retro, but without that pesky responsibility it's like diet crystal spider-man they're selling here.