Comics ASM 581 the uninspired super lame explanation why Harry Osborn is alive

[.Rorschach.]

So yeah the explanation for Harry being alive to no surprise is a lame one.

here it is:

Spoiler

So Peter tags along on the car ride with Harry to go visit Liz Allen and Normie. on the way there Harry explains to peter the reason he is alive. Harry tells him the Goblin Serum that killed him caused him to come back to life. When Pete tells him that Spidey told him his dying words were it killed him Harry replies I was high on the serum when I said it and he died and came back from the serum just like his father. It is then shown that Norman Osborn covered up Harry's death with some help from Mysterio who told him he has to make references to Harry's death, visit his Grave basically everything to hide the fact Harry is alive. During Harry's time before he came back he was moved around clinics in Europe being told he had relapsed. His therapists convinced him that his time as the Green Goblin was a drug induced Hallucination. Harry recently started remembering all of this because of seeing his father Norman in the Green Goblin in the NWTD Arc.
Also Harry rebuilt Aunt May's house.
Hopefully the second part of this story tells us when Harry Osborn decided to reveal he was alive and why the Molten Man wants to kill him

Wow...

 

[Dragon]

To weigh in on this even though I haven't read the issue..

While yes, as some have stated, Marvel's history is rife with lame resurrectiuons, the major problems here are:

1. They RECYCLED an already lame resurrection concept. The Goblin formula (which didn't exist until after Norman was killed) is somehow the key to immortality, which is ridiculous. But at the same time its possiblities as such have never been explored. Its only a pot device to revive long dead characters.

2. Some deaths as written were clearly meant to be permanent ones. Harry's death (As was Norman's) was constructed to be for keeps. Granted, Marvel's eidtorial staff should really think through these storylines before executing (Figuritively and literally). But this is what we have.

3. These particular resurrections (Harry and Norman) were done simply because the editors and writers wouldn't (Not couldn't) come up with good new ideas. Peter didn't need Harry Osborn back. He could've developed a new friendship, with new challenges and high points. And that friendship could have been all the richer due to Peter's experiences with Harry. Just as bringing Norman back certainly hasn't led to any storylines that are as good as the ones prior to his death and have only tainted Osborn's status as Peter's top foe.

The point is that Brand New Day is an ironic title since there's nothing much new here, either in the stories or the quality of writing.

 

[farmernudie]

^ True...should call it "Same Ol' Day".

Couldn't progress anything..so we went back to the old stuff. Already done, to do it again.

 

[imdaly]

2. Some deaths as written were clearly meant to be permanent ones. Harry's death (As was Norman's) was constructed to be for keeps. Granted, Marvel's eidtorial staff should really think through these storylines before executing (Figuritively and literally). But this is what we have.

3. These particular resurrections (Harry and Norman) were done simply because the editors and writers wouldn't (Not couldn't) come up with good new ideas. Peter didn't need Harry Osborn back. He could've developed a new friendship, with new challenges and high points. And that friendship could have been all the richer due to Peter's experiences with Harry. Just as bringing Norman back certainly hasn't led to any storylines that are as good as the ones prior to his death and have only tainted Osborn's status as Peter's top foe.

See: Death of Aunt May.

 

[moraldeficiency]

See: Death of Aunt May.

I agree she should have died a long time ago. And stayed dead, but apparently even when she want's to die, when it's god's time for her to die, Joey Q just won't allow it. You and I should start a petition to have her stay dead.

 

[Dragon]

See: Death of Aunt May.

Exactly. Anoither lame resurrection (After a lame death IMO). Marvel should get the message that this isn't the solution.

 

[kguillou]

Lame death?? I respect your opinion bro, but Aunt May's death in #400 is probably one of the most memorable heartfelt deaths in all of comics. I swear to god i get teary eyed everytime i read it. It was perfect, if there was ever a perfect way to kill aunt may then that was it. But i guess thats just my opinion. lol

 

[The Joker]

I think Dragon's problem with May's death was how she revealed to Peter that she knew he was Spider-Man all along, when her history suggests that is extremely unlikely.

May spat venom about Spider-Man for years. Accused him of being a criminal, assaulting "That nice Dr Octavius", and she even shot a gun at Spidey once in order to protect Doc Ock!!!

Her confessing that she knew it was Peter all along just didn't ring true at all. Almost as bad as Gwen banging Norman Osborn, and spawning his Goblin twins, and her and MJ keeping that a secret from Peter.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

I think Dragon's problem with May's death was how she revealed to Peter that she knew he was Spider-Man all along, when her history suggests that is extremely unlikely.

May spat venom about Spider-Man for years. Accused him of being a criminal, assaulting "That nice Dr Octavius", and she even shot a gun at Spidey once in order to protect Doc Ock!!!
.

Agreed. Which in a way, kind of gives more weight to her resurrection; an "actress" not really knowing every detail of her life...

 

[kguillou]

You know i still dont fully understand that whole "i hired an actress to impersonate her and die on you." excuse. Was it a clone or was it literally an actress?

 

[Blader5489]

You know i still dont fully understand that whole "i hired an actress to impersonate her and die on you." excuse. Was it a clone or was it literally an actress?

It was a "DNA-altered actress."

For ****'s sake, it would have been simpler if they just said it was a clone!

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

It was a "DNA-altered actress."

For ****'s sake, it would have been simpler if they just said it was a clone!

Agreed. Especially since it was later revealed that clone-master The Jackal, was working for Osborn.

 

[shinlyle]

I think that's the one thing we all can agree upon; the explanation behind Aunt May's Resurrection may have been even more stupid than the Scarlet Witch killing Hawkeye only to "wish him back".

 

[Jack O Lantern]

To weigh in on this even though I haven't read the issue..

While yes, as some have stated, Marvel's history is rife with lame resurrectiuons, the major problems here are:

1. They RECYCLED an already lame resurrection concept. The Goblin formula (which didn't exist until after Norman was killed) is somehow the key to immortality, which is ridiculous. But at the same time its possiblities as such have never been explored. Its only a pot device to revive long dead characters.

The Goblin formula did exist before his death, that is how he got his powers.

2. Some deaths as written were clearly meant to be permanent ones. Harry's death (As was Norman's) was constructed to be for keeps. Granted, Marvel's eidtorial staff should really think through these storylines before executing (Figuritively and literally). But this is what we have.

J.M. DeMatteis who wrote that story clearly stated that this was not the case, he said on the spider-man crawl space podcast that he always knew Harry and Aunt May would be back.

3. These particular resurrections (Harry and Norman) were done simply because the editors and writers wouldn't (Not couldn't) come up with good new ideas. Peter didn't need Harry Osborn back. He could've developed a new friendship, with new challenges and high points. And that friendship could have been all the richer due to Peter's experiences with Harry. Just as bringing Norman back certainly hasn't led to any storylines that are as good as the ones prior to his death and have only tainted Osborn's status as Peter's top foe.

The point is that Brand New Day is an ironic title since there's nothing much new here, either in the stories or the quality of writing.

See here's the problem, that's not true. Readers today give no knew characters a chance. Just look at the reaction to Charlie and Lilly, after one issue people were complaining that they would never be Gwen and MJ. After one issue.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I don't know Jack, when a character is an obvious rip off of another character why should they get a chance? Now you could say Vin is a new concept, but he's just a whiney ass all the time. Mr. Negative/Mr. Li turned out to be a pretty good new character.

 

[Dragon]

The Goblin formula did exist before his death, that is how he got his powers.

No it didn't. See ASM vol.1 #40. A chemcial exploded in his face, causing brain damage. There was no Goblin formula. The Goblin formula was introduced during the early Hobgoblin stories to explain super strength that the Goblin never displayed. The Goblin, up to ASM #122 displayed at best "peak human" strength. Even Harry didn't know of any Goblin formula in his first few go-rounds as GG.

J.M. DeMatteis who wrote that story clearly stated that this was not the case, he said on the spider-man crawl space podcast that he always knew Harry and Aunt May would be back.

DeMatteis knowing that Marvel would bring them back (As a matter of policy) isn't the same as his intending them to stay dead based on the writing.

See here's the problem, that's not true. Readers today give no knew characters a chance. Just look at the reaction to Charlie and Lilly, after one issue people were complaining that they would never be Gwen and MJ. After one issue.

I said above that Harry shouldn't have been brought back, but instead a new character should have been introduced and developed as Pete's best pal. But anyway, the complaint isn't about characters being new- but writing being bad.

 

[Dragon]

I think Dragon's problem with May's death was how she revealed to Peter that she knew he was Spider-Man all along, when her history suggests that is extremely unlikely.

May spat venom about Spider-Man for years. Accused him of being a criminal, assaulting "That nice Dr Octavius", and she even shot a gun at Spidey once in order to protect Doc Ock!!!

Her confessing that she knew it was Peter all along just didn't ring true at all. Almost as bad as Gwen banging Norman Osborn, and spawning his Goblin twins, and her and MJ keeping that a secret from Peter.

Thanks Mr. J

Another problem I had with #400 was along the same lines- that instead of May knowing, Pete should have manned-up and revealed the truth. Peter has always been such a punk about his ID, until he was stupid about it during Civik War.

 

[shinlyle]

No it didn't. See ASM vol.1 #40. A chemcial exploded in his face, causing brain damage. There was no Goblin formula. The Goblin formula was introduced during the early Hobgoblin stories to explain super strength that the Goblin never displayed. The Goblin, up to ASM #122 displayed at best "peak human" strength. Even Harry didn't know of any Goblin formula in his first few go-rounds as GG.

Why is it that no one knows this? I know this has been talked about to death in these forums, yet so many people think that the Goblin formula was always there...hmph.

 

[Jack O Lantern]

I don't know Jack, when a character is an obvious rip off of another character why should they get a chance? Now you could say Vin is a new concept, but he's just a whiney ass all the time. Mr. Negative/Mr. Li turned out to be a pretty good new character.

But are they obvious rip offs? I know Lilly is the party girl and Charlie the safe girl like MJ and Gwen were, but that is pretty broad. Lilly, unlike MJ, was brought up rich with a doting father and is basically a spoilt brat, and unlike Gwen, Charlie is not a complete mand woman. Seriously read some of the Gwen stories, if Peter was two seconds late there was a massive drama.

No it didn't. See ASM vol.1 #40. A chemcial exploded in his face, causing brain damage. There was no Goblin formula. The Goblin formula was introduced during the early Hobgoblin stories to explain super strength that the Goblin never displayed. The Goblin, up to ASM #122 displayed at best "peak human" strength. Even Harry didn't know of any Goblin formula in his first few go-rounds as GG.

That was the Goblin forumla, it was invented by Mendel Stromm and Osborn took his notes. That chemical was the forumla.

DeMatteis knowing that Marvel would bring them back (As a matter of policy) isn't the same as his intending them to stay dead based on the writing.

Yes it is. The only deaths that are ever meant to be permanent are the deaths that alter the characters out look. Like Uncle Ben's death, Ceorge Stacey and Gwen. Harry didn't have that big an affect on Peter, especially when the rest of the supporting cast dissappeared anyway

 

[Dragon]

But are they obvious rip offs? I know Lilly is the party girl and Charlie the safe girl like MJ and Gwen were, but that is pretty broad. Lilly, unlike MJ, was brought up rich with a doting father and is basically a spoilt brat, and unlike Gwen, Charlie is not a complete mand woman. Seriously read some of the Gwen stories, if Peter was two seconds late there was a massive drama.

Yeah but Charlie is a cop's daughter, and a science major, just like Gwen. Pretty obvious.

That was the Goblin forumla, it was invented by Mendel Stromm and Osborn took his notes. That chemical was the forumla.

It wasn't a Goblin formula. Like I said, READ THE STORY-

Osborn doesn't even know what Stromm's formulas are for. He's only looking them over to see if there's anything profitable, after Stromm is sent to prison. Osborn mixes the chemicals and doesn't understand what's happening when they begin to boil over - then before he can move the formula explodes in his face.

Doctors spend weeks trying to save him saying that the damage is DEEP IN HIS BRAIN. Osborn narrates: "The fools! They thought my brain had been damaged! They didn't suspect that the ACCIDENT (Not treatment) had made me more brilliant than I had ever been!"

Funny that Norman would neglect to mention the accident not giving him super strength, since that's supposed to be the purpose of the Goblin formula. And again- up through the period of his death in ASM #122- the Goblin never displays super strength. Whenever they get to close quarters Spidey always easily over-powered him. Not enough? Well, Stan Lee confirmed that the Goblin didn't have super strength on the letters page of Spidey #104. He received mail questioning how the Goblin could give Spidey a fight with no powers- To which Stan replied that Spidey's inherent klutziness and the fact that other non-super guys like Captain America have been able to fight super-powered guys ad infinitum.

Yes it is. The only deaths that are ever meant to be permanent are the deaths that alter the characters out look. Like Uncle Ben's death, Ceorge Stacey and Gwen. Harry didn't have that big an affect on Peter, especially when the rest of the supporting cast dissappeared anyway

Really? Then explain the resurrection of Bucky Barnes. Didn't that alter Captain America's outlook? And, how did Gwen's death alter Spidey's outlook? What did he do differently after her death? And George Stacy? How did that alter anything? I'd think that Harry's death would easily affect Peter as much as Capt. Stacy's.

 

[storyteller]

I really dont think the clone saga happened in the BND universe or at least not the same way. Norman has no Clue who spiderman is, Hell the flippen symbiote doesn't even know. My best guess is that Clone spiderman is no longer "canon". But whatever 3 years from now the status quo will be brought back and we will have to figure what place bnd has.

 

[Themanofbat]

I really dont think the clone saga happened in the BND universe or at least not the same way. Norman has no Clue who spiderman is, Hell the flippen symbiote doesn't even know. My best guess is that Clone spiderman is no longer "canon". But whatever 3 years from now the status quo will be brought back and we will have to figure what place bnd has.

Aaahhh, sweet ignorance at work.

IF you read the books, you'd know that Norman, along with the rest of the world (including the symbiote), have simply forgotten that Peter is Spider-Man on account of an as of yet told tale of Peter doing "something" with the aid of an ally to make the world forget that he unmasked, as well as the people who knew his identity long before...

they did know his identity "once upon a time", but the memory of who he is has been forgotten.

What Norman thinks of those old stories is still unknown...

And don't hold your breath... the old status quo will be a looooooooooong time in coming back.

 

[ScottishFogg]

I hate it that the symbiote doesn't even know. That's what made Venom work and set him apart from the other villains. He knew Peter inside and out. Now he's just a unique set of powers.

 

[imdaly]

I hate it that the symbiote doesn't even know. That's what made Venom work and set him apart from the other villains. He knew Peter inside and out. Now he's just a unique set of powers.

I agree. BUT, when's the last time we've really seen that dynamic actually mean anything? The whole Venom-knows-who-I-am-and-can-strike-any-time dynamic has really been largely ignored for years now, as much as I can recall.

 

[ScottishFogg]

It hasn't been an angle Marvel has explored in a long time, probably because Marvel hasn't been able to make up its mind on whether or not Venom is a villain.