Comics AStonishing's Hellfire Club Discussion

[Specter313]

and Anya,and Jenny,and Joyce,and Lilah...etc

And Kendra, and Cordelia, and Tara...

 

[SMroxs]

It can also make us think it's a former White Queen... and there is only one who fits that bill, Adrienne Frost. More and more so I believe it is. What if Emma didn't kill her? What if she just made everyone believe she did with her telepathy? Would Xavier have allowed her to teach at his school if she had? Adrienne Frost would be a great choice for this mistery character, the older Frost, manipulating the youngest... I kinda like it.

Ha! Like Xavier could cast any stones about Emma killing Adrienne. Much as I wish otherwise, the man clearly wasn't a saint. Just ask Petra, Sway, Vulcan and Darwin. Besides, Adrienne was a bee-och.

I don't think it'll be Adrienne. Is the cloaked figure in charge of the group? That's the impression I got, but it is hard for me to believe that Cassandra Nova would follow anyone else.

Perhaps something really did happen between Emma and Cassandra prior to Genosha being decimated, but I also think someone might just be manipulating Emma now. Negasonic Teenage Warhead was dead, and it's not like her character was anything special. But for Emma she would represent another failure on her part to keep her students safe. Sebastion represents her darker past and her greed. Cassandra I'm not so sure about... depends on whatever deal she made with Emma in Genosha. Whoever the cloaked figure is could be manipulating Emma by giving human form to her fears, failures and shortcomings. Then the question is what does the cloaked figure want? Soemthing from Emma or from the X-Men as a whole?

 

[Abaddon]

Man,I really need to pick up the latest TPB's.

And Kendra, and Cordelia, and Tara...

Now I'm getting all teary-eyed.

 

[BrianWilly]

I highly doubt that this is all a delusion of Emma's, considering that we've seen a flashback of Cassandra Nova giving Emma secondary mutations. Unless that entire memory is just fake and Joss gave us four pages of fake flashbacks to give a fake explanation for a secondary mutation, Cassandra Nova is very real right now.

 

[Manic]

I believe Cassandra's meeting with Emma really happened, and that Cassandra made her forget about it. However, I think the the memory is coming back on its own, and it's causing Emma to create a new Hellfire Club in her mind to deal with the guilt.

 

[Abaddon]

So the implication has been that Emma was aware of Cassandra's plan of attack?

 

[Manic]

So the implication has been that Emma was aware of Cassandra's plan of attack?

On some level, yes I believe so. However, Cassandra did say something about how she could wipe the memory of their meeting from Emma's mind if she wanted to.

 

[FieryBalrog]

I hope its not some mental thing. Thats the most popular explanation but I rather things were actually happening.

 

[rjb182]

I wonder if it's a little of both?

What if Emma is imagining it-- BUT as part of some kind of subliminal suggestion Cassandra Nova implanted during their deal shown in the last issue?

If that's the case, then there'd be no new Hellfire Club... just Emma, being slowly driven mad and used by Cassandra as a final revenge...

 

[FieryBalrog]

I guess. But where would Perfection fit into that. And I like Negasonic Teenage Warhead (best codename ever) and want her to be alive.

 

[rjb182]

^ Well, Perfection could be almost anything under this scenario. Jean or Adrienne or whatever it is Cassandra thought would work best to manipulate Emma into doing... whatever it is she'll eventually do.

*shrug* I'm not married to the idea, but I think it does fit the facts and straddles the line between copping out with a dream scenario and turning Emma into an outright villain...

 

[Abaddon]

On some level, yes I believe so. However, Cassandra did say something about how she could wipe the memory of their meeting from Emma's mind if she wanted to.

So how would this tie into the notion that Emma is manipulating Scott?

 

[SMroxs]

Unless that entire memory is just fake and Joss gave us four pages of fake flashbacks to give a fake explanation for a secondary mutation, Cassandra Nova is very real right now.

I don't think it's all fake, but I do think parts of what is happening to Emma right now might not be real. I don't think the Hellfire Club really exists in this form... Shaw, Nova, Negasonic and Perfection. Negasonic was dead. Dead, dead. Emma held her glass-impaled body in her hands in Genosha. She can't be real now. Admittedly not that that has stopped Marvel before. What purpose would anyone have had in bringing her back?

I think Cassandra is manipulating Emma. Perfection will probably turn out to be Jean. Not the REAL Jean, but an illusion Cassandra is using. For as perfect as Emma thinks she is, think back to Phoenix Endsong when Emma had to unite all of the X-Men in mind to tell Jean how much they loved her. Do you think Emma has ever felt that kind of love directed towards her? I believe her quote was "God, Jean. How does it feel to be loved that much?" Even though Emma thought Jean was manipulative, I can totally see her secretly desiring to have the sort of revered status that Jean does among the X-Men. So to her Jean would be a pinnacle of perfection of sorts. Not necessarily in character because Jean had her flaws, but in the sort of hero that Jean was. The kind of hero who sacrificed her life for the universe.

It may be a wild stretch, but if Shaw and Negasonic represent Emma's failings then Jean would represent what she wants to be... perfection. And Cassandra is using that desire to her advantage to manipulate Emma.

Feel free to laugh when I'm totally wrong. Just my own theories.

 

[Abaddon]

Makes sense.Shaw to represent her old life,Negasonic to represent her negative attributes/failures,and Perfection(Jean) to represent everything she can't be.

 

[BBraddockLover]

i like that!

 

[Sun_Down]

I don't think it's all fake, but I do think parts of what is happening to Emma right now might not be real. I don't think the Hellfire Club really exists in this form... Shaw, Nova, Negasonic and Perfection. Negasonic was dead. Dead, dead. Emma held her glass-impaled body in her hands in Genosha. She can't be real now. Admittedly not that that has stopped Marvel before. What purpose would anyone have had in bringing her back?

I think Cassandra is manipulating Emma. Perfection will probably turn out to be Jean. Not the REAL Jean, but an illusion Cassandra is using. For as perfect as Emma thinks she is, think back to Phoenix Endsong when Emma had to unite all of the X-Men in mind to tell Jean how much they loved her. Do you think Emma has ever felt that kind of love directed towards her? I believe her quote was "God, Jean. How does it feel to be loved that much?" Even though Emma thought Jean was manipulative, I can totally see her secretly desiring to have the sort of revered status that Jean does among the X-Men. So to her Jean would be a pinnacle of perfection of sorts. Not necessarily in character because Jean had her flaws, but in the sort of hero that Jean was. The kind of hero who sacrificed her life for the universe.

It may be a wild stretch, but if Shaw and Negasonic represent Emma's failings then Jean would represent what she wants to be... perfection. And Cassandra is using that desire to her advantage to manipulate Emma.

Feel free to laugh when I'm totally wrong. Just my own theories.

I like the idea, using the different people as symbols is a really cool thought. I too am hoping that this whole Hellfire thing is all in Emma's mind too.

 

[Manic]

So how would this tie into the notion that Emma is manipulating Scott?

I don't think she is. No more than any normal woman manipulates her man, anyway.

 

[Chamber_UK]

we do know that Perfection is a 'telepath' and that she is stronger then Emma & Cassandra. I still stand by my theory that it is the concealed Stepford Cuckoo who has joined with the phoenix force.

 

[FieryBalrog]

do we know Perfection is a telepath?

 

[Chamber_UK]

Well she seemed to detect Emma's thoughts regarding Scott, when Cassandra didn't.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Well she seemed to detect Emma's thoughts regarding Scott, when Cassandra didn't.

That was the biggest indication to me that Perfection is either a part of Emma or Jean. But it could be a cuckoo.

But I really dont think it is for the reasons I said before which is that Whedon obviously had this planned before anyone knew that Endsong would hint at a Cuckoo joining with a Phoenix fragment.

 

[BrianWilly]

You don't necessarily need to be a telepath to know that Emma loves Scott. All you have to be is perceptive.

 

[GreatWhiteWhale]

Perhaps..

The white glove is a fairly direct reference to the white queen, whether it be a bait and switch or otherwise.

I'm of the opinion that Cassandra, NTW and Shaw are all personifications of Emma's fears, doubts, regrets etc.. as well as characters in their own right.

I'm also of the opinion that whoever 'Perfection' is, is heavily manipulating Emma's reality..

.. Remember how Danger new Emma's "Secret", didn't anyone else think that was a little strange if viewed from an exterior (not-Emma's) perspective?

 

[Wimpie]

I do like the idea that this is all in Emma's head as well... I love the character of Emma. I just find it more intriguing to have a character who was a villain trying to make amends and be a better person for ex. Faith from the Buffyverse.

With regards to Perfection being Jean Grey - I'd be over the moon if it was her, but isn't it kind of obvious? I mean, this is Whedon we are talking about people. I'm sure he's going to surprise us with someone we haven't expected.

Something that bothers me is how Danger knew Emma's secret... Danger was designed to "know" the X-men to be able to beat them. I just think this fits in more with the theory that this is all in Frost's head.

As for Emma manipulating Scott - I don't think so. I do believe that Scott would like to believe she is... it would make things so much easier for him.

 

[Chamber_UK]

So far we have the following possibilites regarding Perfection...

1) Mental Figments (either produced by Emma herself, or Cassandra, or other)
2) Adrienne
3) Jean
4) One of the Cuckoos

any other guesss?