At what point did you know DCEU was failing ?

[BestGirl]

When Ben Affleck was hired. That really set the tone for the whole universe

I was alarmed at the age gap between Affleck and Cavill. How was a Batman supposedly near the end of his career going to function in the Justice League?

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I was alarmed at the age gap between Affleck and Cavill. How was a Batman supposedly near the end of his career going to function in the Justice League?

An older Batman could have been interesting if they'd been going for a self-contained own-world movie or even a two-parter, but it was pretty short-sighted for an ongoing shared universe.

 

[The Batman]

Not really. Tony is really the only character people were enamored with when avengers came out. Hulk, who remembers anything about that movie?, Cap and Thor their movies were OK, but didn't set the world on fire. We don't see the gleam of their character potential until Avengers and really Cap doesn't hit his stride until WS, and Thor doesn't hit his until Ragnarok.

People don't have to be invested in characters before the team up movie. No one was invested in the Guardians of the Galaxy, nor did we get lead in movies for them.

This. Its very clear that there were a number of people who saw Avengers that didn't watch the other Phase 1 Films. You look at the box office for Iron Man 3, and its obvious that the solo Iron Man franchise got a boost from the characters appearance in A1.

The first Avengers movie did a very good job of making things accessible for those who didn't watch the previous Phase 1 films.

 

[the last son]

I didn't feel that way about BvS but that's exactly how I felt seeing Batman & Robin so I can fully sympathise.

I can imagine. I was only 9 when that came out, so wouldn't have gotten upset about that movie, but could imagine if I was an adult like when I was seeing BvS I would've had quite the same reaction.

 

[FunkMiller]

I can imagine. I was only 9 when that came out, so wouldn't have gotten upset about that movie, but could imagine if I was an adult like when I was seeing BvS I would've had quite the same reaction.

It was worse.

BvS is a terrible film, but you have no idea of the soul sucking horror of watching B&R at the cinema.

 

[the last son]

It was worse.

BvS is a terrible film, but you have no idea of the soul sucking horror of watching B&R at the cinema.

I get it, but this was worse this was Batman and SUPERMAN! How could you mess that up in such horrible fashion? At least Batman and Robin is funny.

 

[Dwarf Slayer]

There were so many warning signs. I was pretty excited when Zack Snyder was hired TBH. His movies always looked great and I thought he had a really good shot at making a great comic book movie. Man of Steel would have the advantage of being its own thing and not a straight up adaptation of an existing work like 300 or Watchmen. Handling something like Superman should be infinitely more easy than trying to Watchmen. A lot of the same people involved in The Dark Knight trilogy were involved. The trailers looked great. Then the actual movie hit and:

Why did they overcomplicate Superman's back story?
Why is he so miserable?
Why did this movie devolve into relentless loud noise?
Why did Superman tell the US government to piss off?
Why is this movie ending with destruction usually reserved for trilogy ending climaxes?
Why did Superman's introduction end with him killing somebody?

A lot of these things would be serviceable if Man of Steel was its own self thing like it was originally supposed to be. When they announced BVS though, I was like "WTF?". How are you going to introduce Batman into this universe? Are Superman and Batman going to just brood at each other? Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of having the characters team up? The fun with seeing the "Big Blue Boy Scout" and "The Dark Knight" interact is how they contrast. Anyways, the warning signs:

Jesse Eisenburg is announced as Lex Luthor
Wonder Woman is in the movie
Doomsday is in the movie
trailer shot of the trinity assembled has Batman holding a gun

So the movie comes out and its a disaster. It becomes meme central and is a complete joke on the internet. Without any time for introspection or re-evaluation, WB starts filming Justice League like a month later with Zack Snyder still at the helm.

Basically, I knew this universe was dead when WB refused to acknowledge the elephant in the room. I was honestly surprised WB let Zack make BVS. I thought after Man of Steel underperformed, he'd be fired. For sure, I thought he'd be fired after BVS. Nope, they just kept letting him do his thing. It's funny that they finally took the necessary steps to try and course correct while filming Justice League. Obviously, they knew they screwed up. That rough cut must have been something else for WB to finally decide that Zack crossed the line. Surely they must have known that the franchise was unsalvagable at the point. Might as well have let Zack finish on his trilogy on his own terms. Whatever we got would have surely been more interesting than the depthless, frankenstein'd JL that ended up in theaters. The most interesting thing about that movie was the behind the scenes drama. Say what you will about BVS, but it still inspires a lot of conversation and debate. More so than most Marvel movies, that's for sure.

 

[MbJ]

Batman & Robin I can at least appreciate for the unintentional hilarity.

As for the title question, I realized this franchise was in trouble when BVS failed to hit a billion. This was the historic first onscreen meeting of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman on the big screen, and it couldn't even make as much as Iron Man 3??

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Batman & Robin I can at least appreciate for the unintentional hilarity.

As for the title question, I realized this franchise was in trouble when BVS failed to hit a billion. This was the historic first onscreen meeting of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman on the big screen, and it couldn't even make as much as Iron Man 3??

Yes. If that couldn't cross the billion in this current golden period for CBMs something was wrong

 

[MbJ]

I was alarmed at the age gap between Affleck and Cavill. How was a Batman supposedly near the end of his career going to function in the Justice League?

See, in theory I could have absolutely gotten behind a movie about a bitter, weary and beaten down middle aged version of Batman who has been fighting an unwinnable war for far too long.

That's an interesting take for a movie. But it's an extremely bizarre take for the character's first movie in on what is supposed to be an ongoing shared universe, unless the plan is to have someone else take the mantle from Bruce when he dies or retires.

It speaks to the seat of their pants nature of the planning that went into this universe. It seemed like they had interesting ideas for very daring, edgy standalone films and then decided after the fact that this should be a universe, which I feel is a problem. BVS was the wrong type of movie to try and use to introduce your audience to an entire universe, and not just because it sucked either.

 

[Herofan]

I think when I learned Jesse Eisenberg would play Lex, I really don't like him and that casting felt like different for the sake of different and I expected that general reactions would *at best* be love-or-hate.

 

[Johnglen]

It's not failing though... JL still made more more money than any phase 1 mcu movie sans avengers. The only place the DCEU is hated is on the internet. To most people it's just OK. The MCU only has one good phase 1 movie, Iron Man, the rest are mediocre (Thor, Cap, Avengers) controversial (IM2) or bad (IH). One good and one entertaining movie out of six seems to be more than enough to hold people over. If WB reigns in on the budgets and these movies start making sub 450 million then you can put the writing on the wall.

Except that when marvel started producing their films the market was completely different. In fact the market that marvel created was what compelled WB to start their own half assed universe. Comparing the first films of marvel that came out before the big superhero boom to WB is flawed logic.

As for your personal opinion on marvel films , it’s an irrelevant opinion of a fanboy on the internet, critics and audiences loved these films and that’s why marvel films started trending upwards in bo grosses, unlike dc.

Last but not least, marvel created their empire without having their top properties, when WB “tried” to start a shared universe with a b character , green lantern , the bo results were laughable while marvel made superstars out of characters like iron man, Thor, guardians of the galaxy, black panther and captain America . Hell, there’s a good chance that the second ant-man film will do better than the justice league film.

 

[Detective Conan]

Last but not least, marvel created their empire without having their top properties, when WB “tried” to start a shared universe with a b character , green lantern , the bo results were laughable while marvel made superstars out of characters like iron man, Thor, guardians of the galaxy, black panther and captain America . Hell, there’s a good chance that the second ant-man film will do better than the justice league film.

That's the crazy part. You make a rather salient point about about Marvel.

If anything, Iron Man had to work for Marvel or else they would lose the rights to all the characters(Marvel offered character rights to Paramount as collateral for the loan they received in the likelihood the movies they were releasing-namely Iron Man and Incredible Hulk under-preformed). The stakes for Marvel Studios was so much higher.

Comparatively, for Warners, it didn't matter that much that Green Lantern failed since at the time they had a leg-up over even Marvel Studios with their IP. Remember, Warners prior to Green Lantern, already had the ultra-successful Chris Nolan Dark Knight movies and Harry Potter and they owned Green Lantern in perpetuity so even if they made like 5 under-preforming Green Lantern movies they would retain ownership of GL forever. Marvel Studios was still a small studio that struck gold with Iron Man. When Green Lantern bombed, all Warners did was put the IP in the backburner and just focused on Batman and eventually Superman.

 

[Tg11]

If anything the DCEU failed because of BVS and then it was like a domino effect

 

[Jonwo]

That's the crazy part. You make a rather salient point about about Marvel.

If anything, Iron Man had to work for Marvel or else they would lose the rights to all the characters(Marvel offered character rights to Paramount as collateral for the loan they received in the likelihood the movies they were releasing-namely Iron Man and Incredible Hulk under-preformed). The stakes for Marvel Studios was so much higher.

Comparatively, for Warners, it didn't matter that much that Green Lantern failed since at the time they had a leg-up over even Marvel Studios with their IP. Remember, Warners prior to Green Lantern, already had the ultra-successful Chris Nolan Dark Knight movies and Harry Potter and they owned Green Lantern in perpetuity so even if they made like 5 under-preforming Green Lantern movies they would retain ownership of GL forever. Marvel Studios was still a small studio that struck gold with Iron Man. When Green Lantern bombed, all Warners did was put the IP in the backburner and just focused on Batman and eventually Superman.

WB also has all the benefits of owning all the characters like licensing which the likes of Fox and Sony don't have.

Outside of the films, DC is a healthy state, the TV series are doing well and merch sales are great as well due to things like DC Superhero Girls and even the comics themselves has seen a resurgence thanks to Rebirth. They couldn't save JL and it's clear they just wanted it released and move on from it and focus on the next three films

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

They couldn't save JL and it's clear they just wanted it released and move on from it and focus on the next three films

If that's true it's crazy that things have got to a stage where they're having to think like that about a freakin' Justice League movie

 

[Powerman34]

See, in theory I could have absolutely gotten behind a movie about a bitter, weary and beaten down middle aged version of Batman who has been fighting an unwinnable war for far too long.

That's an interesting take for a movie. But it's an extremely bizarre take for the character's first movie in on what is supposed to be an ongoing shared universe, unless the plan is to have someone else take the mantle from Bruce when he dies or retires.

It speaks to the seat of their pants nature of the planning that went into this universe. It seemed like they had interesting ideas for very daring, edgy standalone films and then decided after the fact that this should be a universe, which I feel is a problem. BVS was the wrong type of movie to try and use to introduce your audience to an entire universe, and not just because it sucked either.

This. I didn’t mind the sorta world weary slightly older Bats and Affleck was not a terrible choice. I figured WB thought that since we were just coming off of the Nolan Trilogy audiences could treat Batfleck as his spiritual successor, but they made him 20 yrs in the game at the start of the DCU!?! I saw the Accountant and that’s pretty much how Bruce should’ve been age wise. An in his prime Batman with no doubts in his mission.
However I knew there was going to be issues when WB was scared of taking MOS to the next level by the BO numbers (which were not bad at all, Supes was going to hit a billion but he was in a great staring place like Begins). If WB has left BvS on the back burner for the next 3or 4 yrs and concentrated on a great MOS 2 and told Snyder, Goyer, Nolan (and told him to bring on his brother Jonathan to polish the script) and craft a sorta Greek tragedy story about Supes and Lex (who would’ve been an older Lex than Eisenberg) with either Metallo and/or Parasite as the henchmen villains to challenge this rather green year one Superman and have him figuring this out on his own ie balancing work relationships and superheroics.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

However I knew there was going to be issues when WB was scared of taking MOS to the next level by the BO numbers (which were not bad at all, Supes was going to hit a billion but he was in a great staring place like Begins). If WB has left BvS on the back burner for the next 3or 4 yrs and concentrated on a great MOS 2 and told Snyder, Goyer, Nolan (and told him to bring on his brother Jonathan to polish the script) and craft a sorta Greek tragedy story about Supes and Lex (who would’ve been an older Lex than Eisenberg) with either Metallo and/or Parasite as the henchmen villains to challenge this rather green year one Superman and have him figuring this out on his own ie balancing work relationships and superheroics.

I was fully open to the idea of a DC shared cinematic universe but I really wish we'd had a standalone MoS trilogy first, with Superman being (as far as he knew) the only superhero in existence.

 

[childeroland]

I thought the DCEU was failing when they decided to shove Superman into a Justice League prequel instead of letting him grow in his own sequel.

 

[Powerman34]

I was fully open to the idea of a DC shared cinematic universe but I really wish we'd had a standalone MoS trilogy first, with Superman being (as far as he knew) the only superhero in existence.

I wish I could find the exact interview with Snyder who said that when he started on MOS people were already asking him about the other DC heroes and he said he wanted to get Superman’s house in order first before bringing in other heroes in the JL. Heck I would’ve been cool to see his take on that Superman reborn script that Burton was going to do!

 

[NHawk19]

BvS was really what did the bulk of the damage to the DCEU. The delays and questionable casting seems to be where all the questions started. Was MoS great? No, but it would've been an ok enough to attach a universe on.

The biggest shame of the whole thing is we have a really great WW film set in this world instead of a better quality one.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Yeah, MOS had its missteps but I think they could have evened things out with a good sequel (directed by someone OTHER than Snyder). But shoehorning Batman and Wonder Woman into the sequel, barely giving Superman any dialogue and turning Lex into a human cartoon ran it all right into the ground.

 

[InfinityWar]

I know I'm late, but I just read Black Panther (Marvel's B-Lister) made more money in four days than the entire Justice League run.....

As a DC Fan, I find this absolutely unacceptable. It is embarrassing that DC / WB doesn't get their act together and come up with a plan to make that MCU money for their studio. They have the characters and villains, but ZERO idea how to do it.

I guess the failure of DCEU really shows Kevin Feige and his team are really good at their job. Whereas DC heads do an awful job.

Rebooting would be pointless, bc what are you going to do with WW, which is their bread and butter. They cant reboot WW. So you're kinda stuck with this silly shared universe.

My thought is hire Kevin Feige away from Marvel. Pay him the highest salary ever to a Producer to get DCEU as a legit competitor. Oh wait, they already tried that with Joss Whedon and the fans got a medoicre movie that was way too short and rushed, and I still cant figure out if I like it or hate it.

I'll take this a step further and would predict if you polled the entire movie audience if they liked the heroes of JL (Batman, Superman, Flash, WW, Aquaman) or Groot from GotG better - At this point in time, I bet they would pick freaking Groot. A talking tree that only says three words would prolly beat DC's A-Listers at this point in time. Its insane that we are witnessing this. I'm an old man, but back in MY DAY - we had Chris Reeves Superman 1-2, Tim Burton Batman, Nolan TDK - owning the superhero genre. Sadly, there hasn't been a single DC movie that topped Nolan's last TDK movie. When Nolan said they wanted to end Batman / Bruce Wayne's journey - HE WASN'T KIDDING ! That really was the end of Batman character on cinema. And Superman rebooted twice - epic fail. Superman Returns - nothing happens, doesnt throw one punch. Man of Steel - nothing like a good ole depressing Superman flick about death, destruction, senseless violence, and Transformers style ending. Yuck. Ugh! What is happening here for us DC fans ?!? I dreamt the day we'd see Batman and Superman on screen together and fight each other like Frank Miller's TDKR, but instead, me and other movie fans would rather watch a talking tree in space. Let that sink in, a talking tree from space is more interesting than a Batman vs. Superman movie.

Anyway, how's your sex life ?

 

[Johnglen]

Warner is nowhere near as big to be able to steal valuable executives from Disney.

 

[Frodo]

As long as they have the same people in charge who pushed for BvS, and JL, I really doubt they'll be any real radical changes with regard to the DCEU.

They'll just keep tinkering around the edges, throw wild ideas at the wall ,and stumble through it, as opposed to truly flying right.

My original theory was that they would basically hard reboot those less popular elements and keep everything else. What I forgot, is that we didn't get TDK trilogy and Nolan from the same execs who were in charge during the Schumacer years.

It took a radical change in leadership at WB who had no connection to Superman Lives and the Burton/Schumacer era .

Right now , the people who screwed up are still in charge and haven't changed their minds all that much since they pushed for BvS in the wake of MOS.

They've tinkered with the tone of the DC films as a reactive measure, but they're still hellbent on going through their original plans, even with the unpopularity of several of their projects save WW.

At this point I'm skeptical that several disappoints post JL would even change their minds. It may truly take new leadership from the top.