Avoiding Another Malekith Situation in Phase 3

[Loki882]

He did order the whole village full of women and children to be fired upon after the priest wouldn't tell him where the Tesseract was.

Yeah but the way that they staged it lacked the "oomph" that it should have had. Ironically him killing those other Nazi officers was much more effective, and they were freaking SS officers. Compared to Stane having those terrorists murdered in IM, it just doesn't work as well for me.

 

[Victarion]

Where does the Collector fit into the MCU: hero or villain?

 

[Loki882]

I don't find him particularly interesting or well developed, him constantly screaming did nothing but aggravate me and his motivations were never really clarified or touched upon fully.
From Film crit hulk's essay on the matter:



This I agree with, I think Malekith was poorly handled but the movie had enough going for it elsewhere that it was not as bad as it could have been. I also don't know anything about the character really so it's tough for me to really be super upset about it, as I don't even think I ever heard of Malekith before the movie. However, TDW was the first Marvel movie I've left feeling disappointed, but that's about as far as my criticisms will go because it has a solid rewatch value, Thor and Loki are always a pleasure to see onscreen together, and Asgard has never looked better.

I disagree with that essay pretty much completely. I found MOS Zod to be a pretty compelling villain, and he blows most of the MCU one's out of the water imo. As for him "just screaming," well having seen the movie repeatedly I can safely say that that WASN'T all that there was to his performance. But lets not turn this into yet another DC vs. Marvel.

 

[kedrell]

Where does the Collector fit into the MCU: hero or villain?

Good question. I'm not sure where he or the other Elders of the Universe fit in over in the comics either. I guess ambiguous is the best category they fall into. Sometimes one, sometimes the other...just depends on whatever they want at any given time.

 

[kedrell]

I disagree with that essay pretty much completely. I found MOS Zod to be a pretty compelling villain, and he blows most of the MCU one's out of the water imo. As for him "just screaming," well having seen the movie repeatedly I can safely say that that WASN'T all that there was to his performance. But lets not turn this into yet another DC vs. Marvel.

I thought Zod was horribly done. They made him an idiot who ignores simple solutions to the problems he claims mean so much to him. Ugh! Just a waste of such a good actor as I'm a big Shannon fan from Boardwalk Empire. But MoS's Zod doesn't hold a candle to the greatness of Stamp's version, IMO. Of course, I didn't like MoS in most aspects so that's just par for the course.

 

[The_Manhunter]

Why was the previous universe better? How is that reflected in dark elf ideology?

Does that have to be explained though? If you lived in the old universe, then you're most likely going to think it is better IMO

 

[MadVillainy]

You know who I thought was a really good villain, even though the movie itself gets a mixed response and it's not a CBM? CLU from Tron Legacy.

He had personality, I thought he had a decent plan and he was bad ass. Also he was performed well.

 

[The_Manhunter]

As far as Malekith goes, my general feelings are that he came across as threatening to me (his plan to use the Aether and invading Asgard itself), and that Eccleston gave a fantastic performance. That's what I wanted and that's what I got. I was very satisfied with him, the only MCU villains that I've liked better were Loki (great arc across multiple films) and Thanos (I love the way they are building him up).

 

[Wildcard]

Where does the Collector fit into the MCU: hero or villain?

I'd say a little bit of both.

 

[Daedalus]

This is literally the first time I've ever heard that complaint for CA:TFA.

I just expect that at this point everyone is on board with the movie doing the translation for the audience. I just assumed when we saw the Nazi's among themselves that they were speaking German and we were just having it translated for us without the use of subtitles. Is this really a big issue for some people? Wow. I mean sometimes it can be an artistic choice to include it or not but most of the time I think it's just an annoying obstacle to be overcome and not dealt with any more as there are much more important things to deal with in a story and I appreciate the movie not wasting my time. I guess it depends on a case by case basis how it's best handled but I had ZERO issue with how CA:TFA dealt with it.

I still think the best way I've ever seen this issue handled was in The Hunt for Red October, which was brilliant.

But my point with Malekith is that it's difficult to have memorable dialog when all of it is in subtitles. I think 1/2 of what makes dialog memorable is the way an actor delivers it. The other 1/2 is the actual content/writing of what he/she is saying.

Whiplash had some good lines/exchanges with Tony and Hammer. Even Ronan had some memorable moments(What are you DOING!) but there really aren't any for Malekith. And memorable lines are a big part of what makes a villain effective on screen.

The rest of the world watches all MCU movies with subtitles, and they like them just fine. Subtitles of invented languages were used for movies such as Lord of the Rings and Star Wars and nobody complains. Jabba the Hutt only speaks in subtitles and he is a fan favorite. The problem is not subtitling.

I think it would have made much more sense to have had Red Skull and the rest of the nazis speak in German. If it is a translation, than they should have gone the Valkyrie route and dropped the accent. Germans don`t speak German with funny accents.

However, Germans speaking in English help give the movie the Saturday-morning-cartoon/Vintage-silly-propaganda feel they were going for, so I guess it is more appropriate for the movie (and it goes along wonderfully with Weaving`s performance).

 

[DA_Champion]

Zod was one-dimensional, but that dimension was well-explored and coherent.

Zod was a Kryptonian ultra-conervative. With that, we can understand all of his actions in the movie. We can understand why he wants to restore Krypton exactly as it was, why he wants the Codex, and why he goes crazy at the end. We were also shown what Krypton was rather than being told about it, so we can sympathise with him.

It also works as a character trait because ... it makes perfect sense that Zod would be a Kryptonian ultra conservative. Krypton is a decaying society, which has been perfected in all of the wrong ways but believes it has been perfected, period. It has lost the ability to adapt because it believes in its own perfection, and perfection does not need to adapt, as it is already adapted. Obviously, such a society would indoctrinate its military leaders to be true believers.

 

[DA_Champion]

Where does the Collector fit into the MCU: hero or villain?

I don't think it's clear yet.

But I find him awesome !

 

[kedrell]

You know who I thought was a really good villain, even though the movie itself gets a mixed response and it's not a CBM? CLU from Tron Legacy.

He had personality, I thought he had a decent plan and he was bad ass. Also he was performed well.

All I ever hear about him is the uncanny valley/bad CGI issues they had with making Jeff Bridges younger. Honestly I can't remember as that movie put me to sleep well before the climax so I have little memory of it. Loved the original movie though. Sark was a very good/memorable villain especially teamed up with the MCP.

 

[kedrell]

I don't think it's clear yet.

But I find him awesome !

I wonder if we'll see any more Elders of the Universe.

 

[kedrell]

The rest of the world watches all MCU movies with subtitles, and they like them just fine. Subtitles of invented languages were used for movies such as Lord of the Rings and Star Wars and nobody complains. Jabba the Hutt only speaks in subtitles and he is a fan favorite. The problem is not subtitling.

I think it would have made much more sense to have had Red Skull and the rest of the nazis speak in German. If it is a translation, than they should have gone the Valkyrie route and dropped the accent. Germans don`t speak German with funny accents.

However, Germans speaking in English help give the movie the Saturday-morning-cartoon/Vintage-silly-propaganda feel they were going for, so I guess it is more appropriate for the movie (and it goes along wonderfully with Weaving`s performance).

Well in plenty of the world they simply dub the vocals, this I know. I really can't speak to how foreign audiences experience things. We know they tend to not care as much for our comedy as comedy is highly culture-specific and doesn't translate well and we know they tend to gravitate to action beats as those require no translation. I'm just approaching it as a native English speaker: the subtitles aren't as effective as understanding spoken dialog. With subtitles you have to look in 2 places at once(observe the actor's acting while reading the text of what he's saying) and that's inherently inferior to being able to take the whole thing in at the same time all in one piece when you understand the language that's being spoken(this is why I have never had any issues with remakes of foreign language films simply for the reason that they are in a foreign language...I've never found dubbing to be ideal. It's virtually impossilbe for a foreign speaker to receive a movie that is not in his/her own language the full and complete way the original filmmaker intended without learning that new language...and next to nobody is going to go through all that trouble).

Jabba wasn't the main villain(he's be a poor fit if he was largely because of the language issue but for other reasons as well) and none of the main villains in LOTR spoke primarily in another language(it was occassionally and well distributed throughout the movie with them speaking English as well). Keep in mind, my issue with Malekith isn't that we had to read subtitles to his dialog at all. Kept in check that can be a good artistic choice and useful for establishing mood and character. But it's the sheer volume of how much of his dialog was presented that way that was the problem. Far too much, IMO. I don't think we understand a single word he says in English until 2/3-3/4 of the way through the movie. That's just a bad idea, I think.

I don't think the Valkyrie way would have worked for TFA. In Valkyrie, there are no contrasting foreigners to play against so it works to drop the accents completely. Every character in that movie is German. In TFA it's not the case so I don't mind them speaking English but with German accents even when they are amongst themselves. It would've seemed weird for them to take it up and lose those accents repeatedly depending on who they are talking to.

 

[Victarion]

I don't think it's clear yet.

But I find him awesome !

Yes, from GotG I got the sense that he could go either way. Very interesting character.

 

[Daedalus]

Well in plenty of the world they simply dub the vocals, this I know. I really can't speak to how foreign audiences experience things. We know they tend to not care as much for our comedy as comedy is highly culture-specific and doesn't translate well and we know they tend to gravitate to action beats as those require no translation. I'm just approaching it as a native English speaker: the subtitles aren't as effective as understanding spoken dialog. With subtitles you have to look in 2 places at once(observe the actor's acting while reading the text of what he's saying) and that's inherently inferior to being able to take the whole thing in at the same time all in one piece when you understand the language that's being spoken(this is why I have never had any issues with remakes of foreign language films simply for the reason that they are in a foreign language...I've never found dubbing to be ideal. It's virtually impossilbe for a foreign speaker to receive a movie that is not in his/her own language the full and complete way the original filmmaker intended without learning that new language...and next to nobody is going to go through all that trouble).

Jabba wasn't the main villain(he's be a poor fit if he was largely because of the language issue but for other reasons as well) and none of the main villains in LOTR spoke primarily in another language(it was occassionally and well distributed throughout the movie with them speaking English as well). Keep in mind, my issue with Malekith isn't that we had to read subtitles to his dialog at all. Kept in check that can be a good artistic choice and useful for establishing mood and character. But it's the sheer volume of how much of his dialog was presented that way that was the problem. Far too much, IMO. I don't think we understand a single word he says in English until 2/3-3/4 of the way through the movie. That's just a bad idea, I think.

I don't think the Valkyrie way would have worked for TFA. In Valkyrie, there are no contrasting foreigners to play against so it works to drop the accents completely. Every character in that movie is German. In TFA it's not the case so I don't mind them speaking English but with German accents even when they are amongst themselves. It would've seemed weird for them to take it up and lose those accents repeatedly depending on who they are talking to.

As a Brazilian that lives in Brazil, I can assure you that most movie screenings here are subtitled. Dubbing is usually reserved for animations and children entertainment. People tend to consider dubbing a bad thing, as it somewhat "changes" the performances.

American comedy is plenty appreciated here, and if box-office numbers are to be taken in to consideration, so it is almost everywhere else.

As someone who learned English much after he began watching movies (and now watches them without subtitles), I can also assure you that nothing is lost because of subtitles. I experienced things then much like I experience things now. You get used to it very quickly, it is very instinctive. Perhaps we are just groomed to read them since we are very little, while Americans are not.

On dropping the accents to indicate they were speaking German in TFA, I think it would have been a interesting second alternative to subtitles, but it would kind of counter the simplistic tone of the movie (for which the translation is a perfect fit). The way it is in the movie, you do not know if in their conversations Rogers is speaking German or Schmidt is speaking English. Not that it really matters in TFA though, not like it would do in a serious movie like TWS.

 

[DA_Champion]

Does that have to be explained though? If you lived in the old universe, then you're most likely going to think it is better IMO

They don't have to explain that particular point, but the issue is that when it comes to the dark elves they explained very little. So really, any means of adding depth would have been helpful, and what I listed is just an obvious option.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

They don't have to explain that particular point, but the issue is that when it comes to the dark elves they explained very little. So really, any means of adding depth would have been helpful, and what I listed is just an obvious option.

but they explained it TWICE!
twice, that is one more time than once. two times. in a movie that was very short.
do some people really need the Spy Kids 3 level of repetetivity of spelling out plot points? have we come that far?

 

[DA_Champion]

but they explained it TWICE!
twice, that is one more time than once. two times. in a movie that was very short.
do some people really need the Spy Kids 3 level of repetetivity of spelling out plot points? have we come that far?

A lot of people are saying that the dark elves were not interesting to them.

You can try and understand that,
Or,
You can say they're all idiotic fans of Spy Kids 3.

 

[MadVillainy]

but they explained it TWICE!
twice, that is one more time than once. two times. in a movie that was very short.
do some people really need the Spy Kids 3 level of repetetivity of spelling out plot points? have we come that far?