Batman #700

[conjob_89]

I think that Morrison admitted that the Talia screw up was because he didnt read the issue that she and Bruce made love and wrote what he remembered.

Should never attempted that in the first place.

Yeah, but that's even worse. He's trying to put classic stories into continuity and write beyond them and he doesn't read them!? Besides, Talia had never been characterised like that outside of being brainwashed, so I maintain it was one f the few instances where Morrison's writing was truly, truly terrible.

I wonder if Son of the Demon was never writted nor published would the outcome remain the same...

 

[IBRAH08]

if hes 18 i cant see that changing much, hes like a child, man. would get laughed at/flexed on. cant deus ex machina ur way out of everything with your brain. and batman carrying a staff around is plain ******ed. anyway, like i was saying, uncostumed civillian detective/crime solver. would totally add another un-occupied demension to the bat family. he could have his own stories where hes beating supervillians from behind the scenes in hardcore detective stories. could be a psychological nerd thing for him. Damian is the end-all Robin, Dick is THE batman, and bruce is kind of.........................................................not necessary. i cant stress enough how much the bat-god is going to BE>low when he comes back in the 11th hour to rain judgement upon the mortals of DC/Gotham

Dick may be a great Batman and have surprised us all, but let's not pretend like he's a better Batman than Bruce. Bruce is The GODDAMN Batman. He's Physically superior Dick (even if they are very different) and is a better detective. I love Dick Grayson, but let's not pretend that he makes Bruce obsolete.

 

[WolfCypher]

if hes 18 i cant see that changing much, hes like a child, man. would get laughed at/flexed on. cant deus ex machina ur way out of everything with your brain. and batman carrying a staff around is plain ******ed. anyway, like i was saying, uncostumed civillian detective/crime solver. would totally add another un-occupied demension to the bat family. he could have his own stories where hes beating supervillians from behind the scenes in hardcore CSI like detective stories. could be a psychological nerd thing for him. Damian is the end-all Robin, Dick is THE batman, and bruce is kind of.........................................................not necessary. i cant stress enough how much the bat-god is going to BE>low when he comes back in the 11th hour to rain judgement upon the mortals of DC/Gotham

Why on earth would Tim or any Robin use the staff as Batman? That's like saying Tim would be using those Birdarangs even as Batman. No, he would not. He'd stay true enough to Batman. He wouldn't force any unnecessary elements into his Batman just as Dick hasn't. I'm not going to sway you over to the Tim Drake side, and I see that your set in your opinions against Tim. I'm trying to see the flaws with Tim that you see and I don't see them. And with Tim acting all emo and dark as Red Robin, he's pretty much showing us a tatse of what he could do as Batman.

And if Bruce can deus ex machina a solution to problems, why can't Tim?

We're not going to agree on these things, but Tim is the best Robin, Damian is coming into very nicely, Dick is a great alternative to Batman, but he's not Batman.

 

[SixtyThree]

And if Bruce can deus ex machina a solution to problems, why can't Tim?

^this is what makes Bruce horrible currently, and Grayson so awesome. Dick just turned out to be more interesting than DC could have possibly imagined as Batman is all. I dont think Tim is flawed so to speak, its just his very character is EXTREMELY dorky. He was the biggest Batman Fanboy, i mean for godsake he watched "Batman on tv". DC created him to play on the fan-child in everyone that grows up idolizing, watching. Everything else about him was thrown in later (besides his obvious deductive skills) to portray him as something other than the fan incarnate. I dunno this is probably getting off topic, but Tim as batman will NEVER, and i mean EVER happen. Robin IS Batman now. it would make absolutely ZERO sense to bring bruce back after all this hooplah then somewhere down the road all of a sudden make Tim friggin Drake, dork lord of geekdom, the Batman and go trough the whole "living up to Bruce/what is the mission, oh no, my faults" schtick all over again. and Damian is the next in line. Tim should take note of oracle, cuz that's a similiar ish role hes going to assume for the rest of his existence before long. (except he will have his own book, no doubt)

 

[conjob_89]

^this is what makes Bruce horrible currently, and Grayson so awesome. Dick just turned out to be more interesting than DC could have possibly imagined as Batman is all. I dont think Tim is flawed so to speak, its just his very character is EXTREMELY dorky. He was the biggest Batman Fanboy, i mean for godsake he watched "Batman on tv". DC created him to play on the fan-child in everyone that grows up idolizing, watching. Everything else about him was thrown in later (besides his obvious deductive skills) to portray him as something other than the fan incarnate. I dunno this is probably getting off topic, but Tim as batman will NEVER, and i mean EVER happen. Robin IS Batman now. it would make absolutely ZERO sense to bring bruce back after all this hooplah then somewhere down the road all of a sudden make Tim friggin Drake, dork lord of geekdom, the Batman and go trough the whole "living up to Bruce/what is the mission, oh no, my faults" schtick all over again. and Damian is the next in line. Tim should take note of oracle, cuz that's a similiar ish role hes going to assume for the rest of his existence before long. (except he will have his own book, no doubt)

Dick is far more interesting as Nightwing than as Batman.

 

[Mr. Earle]

^this is what makes Bruce horrible currently, and Grayson so awesome. Dick just turned out to be more interesting than DC could have possibly imagined as Batman is all. I dont think Tim is flawed so to speak, its just his very character is EXTREMELY dorky. He was the biggest Batman Fanboy, i mean for godsake he watched "Batman on tv". DC created him to play on the fan-child in everyone that grows up idolizing, watching. Everything else about him was thrown in later (besides his obvious deductive skills) to portray him as something other than the fan incarnate. I dunno this is probably getting off topic, but Tim as batman will NEVER, and i mean EVER happen. Robin IS Batman now. it would make absolutely ZERO sense to bring bruce back after all this hooplah then somewhere down the road all of a sudden make Tim friggin Drake, dork lord of geekdom, the Batman and go trough the whole "living up to Bruce/what is the mission, oh no, my faults" schtick all over again. and Damian is the next in line. Tim should take note of oracle, cuz that's a similiar ish role hes going to assume for the rest of his existence before long. (except he will have his own book, no doubt)

They brought Barry Allen back from a 20 year old death, you think they'd keep Bruce dead for long?
Bruce will always be about 40, battling the Joker, even in the year 3000. There will never be a progression from this point. That's why the story of Bruce's succession can only be done with a temporary death like the one Morrison gave him.

Dick is far more interesting as Nightwing than as Batman.

I like him in both roles. I really like him as Batman because he finally exercises his birthright, and he is a younger, more flawed Batman that starts from zero. Kind of how Wally took over from Barry.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Well, dedicating his time isn't really the same as being dedicated, if you catch my meaning. Damian was sloppy, really--I don't know if he really believed in the mission the way Bruce does, which is why he was so comfortable killing people and making a deal with the devil. Sure, you could say that making that deal demonstrates loyalty to the cause, but I would argue it demonstrates loyalty to his father; he went to extreme ends to succeed as Batman less because he was absolutely dedicated to saving lives and more because he was dedicated to Bruce.

Good points.

 

[SixtyThree]

Honestly a fair compromise for all of us out here would be Returning Bruce into a multiverse world/continuity where there are no Robins what so ever, nor ever have been. it could be like endless "The long Halloween" and "nolan verse" for YOU people out there that can't understand that Dick and Damian are absolutely Superior to anything that has gone on in 10+ years of "continuity" comics (that term is light these days thankfully) DC could win/win with that one. and gerber-baby fans that cant live without batgod defeating the joker and two-face over and over and over and over and over and over could have their bottle, meanwhile the rest of us could enjoy dynamic characters that have actual depth and fresh direction. Dick and Damian vs Pyg and Flamingo anyday over a FRIGGIN RIDDLER STORY are you joking me????? HARDLINE comic book reading people!!!

 

[IBRAH08]

Honestly a fair compromise for all of us out here would be Returning Bruce into a multiverse world/continuity where there are no Robins what so ever, nor ever have been. it could be like endless "The long Halloween" and "nolan verse" for YOU people out there that can't understand that Dick and Damian are absolutely Superior to anything that has gone on in 10+ years of "continuity" comics (that term is light these days thankfully) DC could win/win with that one. and gerber-baby fans that cant live without batgod defeating the joker and two-face over and over and over and over and over and over could have their bottle, meanwhile the rest of us could enjoy dynamic characters that have actual depth and fresh direction. Dick and Damian vs Pyg and Flamingo anyday over a FRIGGIN RIDDLER STORY are you joking me????? HARDLINE comic book reading people!!!

So wait, you think that because we don't think Dick is a superior Batman that we want no Robins, ever? What kinda of sense does that make? And you've changed your argument. You were originally saying that Dick was a superior Batman (which is false). Now you are saying that he is a more INTERESTING Batman and well, that's just subjective. I do enjoy that fact that we get to see a Batman starting from square one, especially one that we are already emotionally invested in. However, Morrison has said that when Bruce returns he will be deeply affected and will not take up the mantle right away. So, we will see Bruce (at some point, I'm assuming) working to be Batman again after a huge trauma. This will likely be very interesting.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I dont think that anyone will ever be a better Batman than Bruce. But being more fun, more entertaining, more interesting? Its certainly achievable. After 70 years of Bruce, i'm enjoying Dick for as long as its going to last.

 

[IBRAH08]

I dont think that anyone will ever be a better Batman than Bruce. But being more fun, more entertaining, more interesting? Its certainly achievable. After 70 years of Bruce, i'm enjoying Dick for as long as its going to last.

Oh yeah I'm not saying that I'm not enjoying Dickbats, I think he's great. I was just addressing that particular post.

 

[Saint]

I've been somewhat disappointed with the handling of Dick as Batman, with the exception of Batman & Robin. They're not exploring the difference between him and Bruce to my satisfaction (this is mostly apparent in Daniel's run), and the truth is it smells like filler, and we all know that's exactly what it is. DC screwed up royally by revealing that Bruce isn't actually dead in the last page of Final Crisis. We knew immediately after he "died" that he was coming back soon, and accordingly we've just been killing time since then.

The stupidity of that move is completely maddening, as is the brevity of Bruce's absence. We've barely been introduced to Dick Grayson's Batman, and it's already time for "The Return of Bruce Wayne." DC should have taken some notes from Captain America; when Steve Rogers died, the fans believed he had really bought the farm, and more importantly, they believed that his return might not be imminent. They still brought him back too soon (however, his role in Siege gave them a legitimate reason, so it works out for the best), but Bucky's ascension to the role of Captain America had more weight because we felt that it mattered. Dick becoming Batman hasn't mattered, because we've known from day one that Bruce's return is right around the corner.

The only way I can see to rectify this situation is to emulate current events in Captain America (spoilers!), where Steve's return isn't his return to role of Captain America (He's going to direct SHIELD, I guarantee it). That way they have their cake and eat it too: they can keep Bucky going as Cap for as long as it works, and always have the option to bring Steve back in, perhaps years down the line.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I've been somewhat disappointed with the handling of Dick as Batman, with the exception of Batman & Robin. They're not exploring the difference between him and Bruce to my satisfaction (this is mostly apparent in Daniel's run), and the truth is it smells like filler, and we all know that's exactly what it is. DC screwed up royally by revealing that Bruce isn't actually dead in the last page of Final Crisis. We knew immediately after he "died" that he was coming back soon, and accordingly we've just been killing time since then.

The stupidity of that move is completely maddening, as is the brevity of Bruce's absence. We've barely been introduced to Dick Grayson's Batman, and it's already time for "The Return of Bruce Wayne." DC should have taken some notes from Captain America; when Steve Rogers died, the fans believed he had really bought the farm, and more importantly, they believed that his return might not be imminent. They still brought him back too soon (however, his role in Siege gave them a legitimate reason, so it works out for the best), but Bucky's ascension to the role of Captain America had more weight because we felt that it mattered. Dick becoming Batman hasn't mattered, because we've known from day one that Bruce's return is right around the corner.

The only way I can see to rectify this situation is to emulate current events in Captain America (spoilers!), where Steve's return isn't his return to role of Captain America (He's going to direct SHIELD, I guarantee it). That way they have their cake and eat it too: they can keep Bucky going as Cap for as long as it works, and always have the option to bring Steve back in, perhaps years down the line.

I agree 1000%.

I am disappointed by both Daniel and Morrison. OK, Morrison's B&R is more action oriented and deals with metatextual themes more than how a certain character feels about this or that, but in an event such as Bruce's death (really, can this ever be topped?) they should have cared about the characters more. And if Morrison's book doesnt deal with that, then they should have hired a more competent writer to do that in Batman. Like Dini for instance. Fans loved his Detective run. Why was he sidestepped after RIP?

There are certain characters, Cap included, that define their superhero identity. Bruce is Batman and most fans would find it hard to deal with his death if it was permanent. My guess is that DC chickened out. But that wasnt enough. The worst part is that less than a year into Dick's Batman career, he found out that Bruce is still alive and from that moment he was no longer Batman but a substitute looking for the real deal. And for the next six months that it will take Bruce to come back, Dick will keep on being the substitute instead of the goddamn Batman 2.0. And this is why i blame Morrison.

The only way this can be salvaged is by making it up to Dick later. If Bruce comes back and needs some time to clear his head (like Cap) and feels that Dick is a worthy Batman (hell, they'll probably even have him congratulate Steph for her work ), he could let him be Batman for longer.

"Get out of there McGinniss Grayson!"


But the opportunity is already lost. They orchestrated the biggest event possible, the death of the goddamn Batman, and what do they have to show for it besides Morrison's metatexts about Bruce being larger than life, Winnick's BftC epilogue and B&R #1-3?

Seriously, my grandma could write better stories than Daniel. Why arent Dini or Winnick writing Batman again?

 

[SixtyThree]

*face-palm @IBRAH08... your head + my point= ball going, right over.. agree with above, about characterization being inconsistent across books. Morrison definately has it nailed though, Obviously, while Daniel is catching on i would say. and noooooooo, watching Bruce "deal with tauma, resulting in intersting story is A FRIGGING JOKE! THIS IS WHAT BATMAN HAS BEEN ABOUT SINCE ISSSUE #1 spring 1940'" Bruce wayne.traumitized.dealing with it. been there DONE THAT---------Dick Grayson.not traumitized.doing something new. well, isn't this nice!?