'Batman and Robin' brings a 'game-changer' for Bruce Wayne

Well, Morrison's whole point with his run was kind of to do the opposite of what Nolan's doing in the movies just as a kind of breath of fresh air to the Batbooks.

While Batman hasn't been a loner for, well, 70 years, his stories have been prominently grim and gritty for quite some time. Morrison's goal was the bring back the more sci-fi, more camp-influenced era of Batman comics from the 50s-60s.

Which, obviously, is a pretty controversial thing to do. But after 20-30 years of grim and gritty, I kind of welcome the change.
Yes and no. I mean yeah, Batman's in the Justice League book, but it's rarely about him. It's a team book where he's just part of the ensemble.

Not all of the Batman books will have Batman running around with a team of people, though. I mean, The Dark Knight is pretty much a solo-Bruce book. Batman and Detective are both pretty much Dick solo, as well.



I appreciate the response, because I see where it's coming from. I just don't agree with the route they are taking. I would feel a more compelling storyline would be him stopping EVERYONE else from also crime fighting to try to make there life happier as opposed to drag people down to his "grim and gritty".

I just look at that as batmans logic and thinking process, which I just feel this is like you said back to the 50s/60s. I just feel the grim & gritty hasn't reached full circle for him to come around and bring more team back yet, maybe in a couple of years, the dark knight I feel is not ready yet, and that he needs to hit the extreme before realizing the need for balance in his life of having allies/friends to support him.
 
the dark knight I feel is not ready yet, and that he needs to hit the extreme before realizing the need for balance in his life of having allies/friends to support him.
Knightfall
No Man's Land
Bruce Wayne: Fugitive

These and more have already told the story you're describing. I'm utterly sick of "Batman acts like a loner and a d***, then realises he should appreciate having allies" events. Batman Inc is finally going the other way.

Why do you feel Batman isn't ready yet, he's been in the business for over ten years after all.
 
My Batman was sadly killed by the pathetic Morrison in R.I.P.

This new Wayne who might as well tell every one he is Batman over a Batusi-Dance off is dumb and is basically Marvel crap...

Time-travel, Damien, Batman INC., glowing chest symbols and Dr. Hurt is very bad writing.
 
My Batman was sadly killed by the pathetic Morrison in R.I.P.

This new Wayne who might as well tell every one he is Batman over a Batusi-Dance off is dumb and is basically Marvel crap...

Time-travel, Damien, Batman INC., glowing chest symbols and Dr. Hurt is very bad writing

While I agree that Morrison's writing is a little hollow(grab a shovel and head over to the Batman comics thread in the Comics Forum to see my views), I'm baffled by that statement as nothing there that you've mentioned even indicates BAD writing. How is time-travel very bad writing? How is a glowing chest symbol bad writing? How is Dr. Hurt very bad writing?

What you've listed are preferences that you DO NOT LIKE. They are ideas that, that despite not actually reading half of those things in a comic yet to even get a glimpse of the QUALITY of the WRITING, you don't like.

There is presenting ideas and there is executing them. At this current moment, half of what you listed are presented ideas. That said, you have no idea of the quality of the execution of those ideas.
 
While I agree that Morrison's writing is a little hollow(grab a shovel and head over to the Batman comics thread in the Comics Forum to see my views), I'm baffled by that statement as nothing there that you've mentioned even indicates BAD writing. How is time-travel very bad writing? How is a glowing chest symbol bad writing? How is Dr. Hurt very bad writing?

What you've listed are preferences that you DO NOT LIKE. They are ideas that, that despite not actually reading half of those things in a comic yet to even get a glimpse of the QUALITY of the WRITING, you don't like.

There is presenting ideas and there is executing them. At this current moment, half of what you listed are presented ideas. That said, you have no idea of the quality of the execution of those ideas.

It's bad because all of those things do not belong in Batman. I love this character because he is humanistic. I hate everyone and everything about JLA and the rest of DC and Marvel. It is pathetic and gross when Bruce is time traveling and wearing costumes resembling Clooney's and having random children with Talia...

Everything I've loved since 1987 is being physically pooped on by Morrison as if he wished he could have written for the Adam West Batman Series.

I'm not saying Batman should be a loner or that Batgirl sucks or Huntress is dumb. I'm very open minded and have not disliked much over the last 20 years other than...

-War Crimes/War Games
-Stephanie Brown dying but not dying and being Robin
-Black Mask coming back after having an epic finale
-Wayne Tower fading away after 2003
-Batman: Legacy

I'm just saying there are limitations to Batman. Yes, he can have a villain like Clayface but he shouldn't be time traveling and telling people he funds Batman. Hell, the notion that he wants other Batmen is tearing down the bricks O'Neil & Co. constructed with Batman having the burden of this "demon" and not wanting others to have his "guilt and burden" that he has. Bruce took the symbol away from Dick for a reason in KnightsEnd because no one else deserves it. But, now wants 20 some Batmen around the globe?

BRUCE WAYNE is BATMAN. NO ONE ELSE, EVER...

We've seen that no one can handle the icon, identity and symbol of the BAT before; with Dick, Jean and Hugo.

ugh...
 
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Maybe this new Corporate Batman will fail miserably and blow up in Bruce's face, forcing him back into seclusion as a loner.
 
It's bad because all of those things do not belong in Batman. I love this character because he is humanistic. I hate everyone and everything about JLA and the rest of DC and Marvel. It is pathetic and gross when Bruce is time traveling and wearing costumes resembling Clooney's and having random children with Talia...

Everything I've loved since 1987 is being physically pooped on by Morrison as if he wished he could have written for the Adam West Batman Series.

I'm not saying Batman should be a loner or that Batgirl sucks or Huntress is dumb. I'm very open minded and have not disliked much over the last 20 years other than...

-War Crimes/War Games
-Stephanie Brown dying but not dying and being Robin
-Black Mask coming back after having an epic finale
-Wayne Tower fading away after 2003
-Batman: Legacy

I'm just saying there are limitations to Batman. Yes, he can have a villain like Clayface but he shouldn't be time traveling and telling people he funds Batman. Hell, the notion that he wants other Batmen is tearing down the bricks O'Neil & Co. constructed with Batman having the burden of this "demon" and not wanting others to have his "guilt and burden" that he has. Bruce took the symbol away from Dick for a reason in KnightsEnd because no one else deserves it. But, now wants 20 some Batmen around the globe?

BRUCE WAYNE is BATMAN. NO ONE ELSE, EVER...

We've seen that no one can handle the icon, identity and symbol of the BAT before; with Dick, Jean and Hugo.

ugh...

So it's bad writing because you don't prefer it? As I said, these are PREFERENCES that you don't like. It is not any indication of the QUALITY of the writing itself, the quality of the execution of those ideas.

All the stuff you've loved since 1987 is irrelevant because Batman existed YEARS before that. Time travel, vampires, weird fantasy, outer-space, etc...are ALL part of Batman's mythology. And like it or not, Morrison's entire run is a celebration of ALL of Batman's mythology. He is a superhero, inhabiting a world where other superheroes exist. By that very notion, time-travel is plausible in the world of Batman. Again, it isn't BAD WRITING! It's you having your own personal preference of what Batman should be.
 
Maybe this new Corporate Batman will fail miserably and blow up in Bruce's face, forcing him back into seclusion as a loner.

Clearly he will stop all contact to his superfriends and batfamily because his new corporation "might" fail. :doh:
 
It's bad because all of those things do not belong in Batman. I love this character because he is humanistic. I hate everyone and everything about JLA and the rest of DC and Marvel. It is pathetic and gross when Bruce is time traveling and wearing costumes resembling Clooney's and having random children with Talia...

Everything I've loved since 1987 is being physically pooped on by Morrison as if he wished he could have written for the Adam West Batman Series.

I'm not saying Batman should be a loner or that Batgirl sucks or Huntress is dumb. I'm very open minded and have not disliked much over the last 20 years other than...

-War Crimes/War Games
-Stephanie Brown dying but not dying and being Robin
-Black Mask coming back after having an epic finale
-Wayne Tower fading away after 2003
-Batman: Legacy

I'm just saying there are limitations to Batman. Yes, he can have a villain like Clayface but he shouldn't be time traveling and telling people he funds Batman. Hell, the notion that he wants other Batmen is tearing down the bricks O'Neil & Co. constructed with Batman having the burden of this "demon" and not wanting others to have his "guilt and burden" that he has. Bruce took the symbol away from Dick for a reason in KnightsEnd because no one else deserves it. But, now wants 20 some Batmen around the globe?

BRUCE WAYNE is BATMAN. NO ONE ELSE, EVER...

We've seen that no one can handle the icon, identity and symbol of the BAT before; with Dick, Jean and Hugo.

ugh...
1288017882107.jpg
 
Since '87? I remember great comic books in 1988 where Batman paraded around with The Demon & Halo characters of the greater DCU even if one is from the bat family per se. However many big Batman arcs since 1987 included superheroes and all that and people never *****ed like this. Many times you seem him dealing with the more oulandish DCU stuff sometimes with Superman and Green Arrow in his own books. Morrison is not treading new ground here.

Batman didn't become crap till after Fugitive but before that it always did well IMO. At that point I had enough and stopped buying for like 4 years which was crazy cause I went over 10 consistently no problem. By '03 though I tired out kept buying out of dumb loyalty hoping things got better. Hush, Death & The Madiens, As The Crow Flies and War Games were the last straw. Somebody as imaginative as Morrison jumping on it if anything was a god send IMO.

Got me back into collecting the books because the writing keeps me hooked for more. Can't say that's a sign of bad writing. The whole theme that man is capable of overcoming a bout with the ultimate evil has been very inspiring. It reminds you that mankind, we have no limits beyond the ones we set for ourselves. Don't trap yourself and be prepared you're capable of it.

I mean really to act like Morrison exploring the mythology of Batman within the greater DCU is any more ****tier than things that came before is preposterous.
 
I appreciate the response, because I see where it's coming from. I just don't agree with the route they are taking. I would feel a more compelling storyline would be him stopping EVERYONE else from also crime fighting to try to make there life happier as opposed to drag people down to his "grim and gritty".

I just look at that as batmans logic and thinking process, which I just feel this is like you said back to the 50s/60s. I just feel the grim & gritty hasn't reached full circle for him to come around and bring more team back yet, maybe in a couple of years, the dark knight I feel is not ready yet, and that he needs to hit the extreme before realizing the need for balance in his life of having allies/friends to support him.
Alright, hopefully I'll phrase this right, because I don't mean to be offensive...

I respect your opinion. Don't get me wrong. But it's an opinion I hear a lot. And see a lot. Generally - and this may not be you, I don't know - it's an opinion that comes from new fans of Batman, or fans that are unfamiliar with the comics.

Everyone's
first response (my own included) after being introduced to Batman in other forms of media, is that he's a loner, that that's the route to take, that that's what makes for compelling, realistic storytelling. And sometimes it does, don't get me wrong.

But, by and large, that interpretation of Batman is generally SO far from what Batman actually is in the comics, it's a near-impossible expectation to ever achieve.

I mean, for instance, Batman forcing everyone else to stop fighting crime. Good idea. Makes sense. His lifestyle is a horrible lifestyle, we'll all agree. But in the comics, it's not just Bruce, Dick, and Tim and Gotham City. It's a literal universe of superheroes, villains, super powered organizations and groups, etc., etc. That's what the DCU - and Marvel U, even - are; they're a reality where superheroes are not fantasy. They're a very real, and very common reality.

So to come in and say, "I think it would be cool for Batman to be a solo superhero in the comics" is a perfectly fine idea that could very well make for some good stories, when you actually submerse yourself into the comic universe reality, it starts to become an almost...ridiculous idea. It's akin to putting a bat in the middle of a flock of pea*****.

But like I said, your opinion and wish for the creative direction for the character, is perfectly fine, but that type of loner Batman is just not something that could really happy within comic continuity. Would it be a good out-of-continuity story(ies)? Sure, definitely. But that's not what Morrison is writing. He's writing in continuity stories that kind of need to fit in the altered reality of that world.

Basically, keep that fact in mind before getting too disappointed about how Batman is treated in the comics. Or, well, you'll end up pretty much constantly disappointed.
 
Not that I agree with Antsman there, but he is right about something; Morrison is trying to be a little Adam West Batman. He's said it himself that he's a big fan of the 50s/60s comics, and the Brave and the Bold animated series, and takes some inspiration from that.

That being said, let's not pretend Morrison's writing is childish. While it has a sci-fi/fantasy bend, most of his stories are firmly R-rated and actually delve into very sophisticated and adult themes and topics.
 
The thing is Morrison isn't just homaging the silver age or Adam West. Everything from Year One (especially in the last issue of RoBW and Final Crisis tie-ins), 90's stories (Knightfall, Dark Knight, Dark City) to the movies (all of them) happened in some form of another. The Dark Knight's 70 year history is ALL valid.

It's HYPERTIME (remember that?) that's basically the theme of his Batman. I think it's brilliant simply because it doesn't limit creativity. It allows room for anybody to reinterpret anything however they want (Ie: Wagner's take on Finger/Kane classics) within the context of the regular books.

That's the coolest thing to me cause not only is it very metatextual; it also reinforces how these heroes represent modern mythology. They will live forever just like the legends of Hercules, Jesus, Donald Trump and **** like that. It's damn poetic in it's approach actually.
 
Well, with the help of Mr. Earle I picked up and read "Return of Bruce Wayne" and the beginning of "Batman, INC." today...

I can say that "RoBW" really did help fix all of the craziness of "RIP" but I still feel it would have been easier to have none of the Darkseid mess and just have Bruce go on a "journey" that they failed to do for "One Year Later". But, the Bruce as a Detective with Hurt stuff, Bruce as a caveman and the Pilgrim stuff were pretty epic. At least they had him go through not only history but the history of Gotham City and the Wayne family.

I can greatly say this "Batman, INC." is ****ing awesome though. I am actually looking forward to it and feel it isn't dumb. But, Bruce should have never came out as Batman's funder, that is the only downfall. Also, Damien is really awesome now, his relationship with Dick is pretty solid.

Even though Morrison has brought Batman's past from pre 1987 into canon, I do like that Kingdom Come is being forshadowed with the Batrobot army and the whole Red Robin thing for Tim.
 
There, see? No need to fight amongst ourselves! There are silver linings in every cloud!
 
Well, with the help of Mr. Earle I picked up and read "Return of Bruce Wayne" and the beginning of "Batman, INC." today...

I can say that "RoBW" really did help fix all of the craziness of "RIP" but I still feel it would have been easier to have none of the Darkseid mess and just have Bruce go on a "journey" that they failed to do for "One Year Later". But, the Bruce as a Detective with Hurt stuff, Bruce as a caveman and the Pilgrim stuff were pretty epic. At least they had him go through not only history but the history of Gotham City and the Wayne family.

I can greatly say this "Batman, INC." is ****ing awesome though. I am actually looking forward to it and feel it isn't dumb. But, Bruce should have never came out as Batman's funder, that is the only downfall. Also, Damien is really awesome now, his relationship with Dick is pretty solid.

Even though Morrison has brought Batman's past from pre 1987 into canon, I do like that Kingdom Come is being forshadowed with the Batrobot army and the whole Red Robin thing for Tim.
I'm glad to hear it. The Return is a good starting point for anyone who hasnt read the previous books. And you can also see that all of the Darkseid shenanigans werent permanent so its easy to just go in there without fearing that Morrison is tampering with the myth and enjoy Batman kicking ass throughout history, Dick and Damian becoming the new Dynamic Duo, etc.
Alright, hopefully I'll phrase this right, because I don't mean to be offensive...

I respect your opinion. Don't get me wrong. But it's an opinion I hear a lot. And see a lot. Generally - and this may not be you, I don't know - it's an opinion that comes from new fans of Batman, or fans that are unfamiliar with the comics.

Everyone's
first response (my own included) after being introduced to Batman in other forms of media, is that he's a loner, that that's the route to take, that that's what makes for compelling, realistic storytelling. And sometimes it does, don't get me wrong.

But, by and large, that interpretation of Batman is generally SO far from what Batman actually is in the comics, it's a near-impossible expectation to ever achieve.

I mean, for instance, Batman forcing everyone else to stop fighting crime. Good idea. Makes sense. His lifestyle is a horrible lifestyle, we'll all agree. But in the comics, it's not just Bruce, Dick, and Tim and Gotham City. It's a literal universe of superheroes, villains, super powered organizations and groups, etc., etc. That's what the DCU - and Marvel U, even - are; they're a reality where superheroes are not fantasy. They're a very real, and very common reality.

So to come in and say, "I think it would be cool for Batman to be a solo superhero in the comics" is a perfectly fine idea that could very well make for some good stories, when you actually submerse yourself into the comic universe reality, it starts to become an almost...ridiculous idea. It's akin to putting a bat in the middle of a flock of pea*****.

But like I said, your opinion and wish for the creative direction for the character, is perfectly fine, but that type of loner Batman is just not something that could really happy within comic continuity. Would it be a good out-of-continuity story(ies)? Sure, definitely. But that's not what Morrison is writing. He's writing in continuity stories that kind of need to fit in the altered reality of that world.

Basically, keep that fact in mind before getting too disappointed about how Batman is treated in the comics. Or, well, you'll end up pretty much constantly disappointed.
Good post.
 
Well antsman without Darkseid's involvement there is no real purpose to RIP though, but at least you gave things a chance. Batman Inc was indeed quite brilliant the fast pace is just so awesome. A nice contrast to the slower burn of the previous four years of his Bat work. It didn't just feel like Bob Haney's B&TB comic stories but also felt like a more adult take on TB&TB cartoon. Now I know why Morrison initially said that the show's structure and tone was an influence.
 
loving every moment in morrisons run on the batman titles, but I didnt like final crisis. I thought that the batman/darkseid faceoff was great, although could have been more dramatic. The whole time travel thing led to cool stories, but didnt really work for me. I have loved Dick & Damian, loved Tim as Red Robin, even loved steph as batgirl. Now that Bruce is back, so happy it didnt go back to status quo, but I have to agree with many here that the whole wayne ent funding batman is a bit of an iron man movie copy.
 
Now that Bruce is back why the hell is Dick still the Batman in the two iconic core books?!!!
 
Yep. The batman in Batman and Detective is still Dick.
 
Now that Bruce is back why the hell is Dick still the Batman in the two iconic core books?!!!
Because Batman and Detective still take place in Gotham City, and Dick is the Batman of Gotham.

Whereas Bruce is off doing more important things with Grant Morrison.
 
As The Batman said, Batman stopped being a loner over 70 years ago. No, seriously, Robin was created in 1940, and pretty much ever since Batman has had either an outright partner, or very close links to multiple other superheroes.

Batman has been a part of the Justice League for over 40 years.

He was a part of the Justice Society before that.

Before Morrison's run even begin, Bruce already had a network of Nightwing, multiple Robins, multiple Batgirls, Oracle, Huntress, Spoiler, and like 3 random superheroes who were killed off during War Games. Not to mention Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Arrow, multiple Green Lanterns, and multiple Flashes making regular appearances in Batbooks.

The concept of Batman being a loner is a really legitimate concept of the character. It's worked in a lot of stories and movies. But the idea that this loner version of Batman is the only "legitimate" - or even the standard, usual, regular, etc. - version of Batman is not only inaccurate, it's rather absurd.

If you look at his entire history (both real history, and in continuity) Batman has been much more submersed with other superheroes and allies than he has been alone.


Even loner batman has Alfred at the very least.
 
Not at all interested in this direction. While I like the armoured change to Bruce's costume, I really rather have simpler stories where the focus is on the plot at hand than this whole superstructure. To be honest, if Robin or any of those other supporting characters never reared their indulgent heads again, I would be very happy. While I admit that a sidekick has been part of the Batman continuity for several decades and there have been a few stories as such that I've enjoyed, overall I prefer the singular Batman. Not even crazy about him being in the JL. To my mind, the only team ups I'd like to see are the occassional Superman or other DCU characters - and I'd like those to be special events.

I chalk this up to Dan Didio just greenlighting anything he thinks will shake things up and that's something that made me stop buying the Superman books... frankly, I hated the New Krypton arc. I started picking up the title again with Superman's walking tour. I thought that was brilliant.
 
All the stuff you've loved since 1987 is irrelevant because Batman existed YEARS before that. Time travel, vampires, weird fantasy, outer-space, etc...are ALL part of Batman's mythology. And like it or not, Morrison's entire run is a celebration of ALL of Batman's mythology. He is a superhero, inhabiting a world where other superheroes exist. By that very notion, time-travel is plausible in the world of Batman. Again, it isn't BAD WRITING! It's you having your own personal preference of what Batman should be.

By this logic, Batman & Robin (the film) isn't bad writing because it exists in Batman's mythology. :oldrazz:

Not everything is a good idea, regardless of whether or not it's been explored before.
 
By this logic, Batman & Robin (the film) isn't bad writing because it exists in Batman's mythology. :oldrazz:

Not everything is a good idea, regardless of whether or not it's been explored before.

Time travel, sci-fi and so forth on recent Batman hasn't been bad because it's well written. Batman and Robin isn't bad because it has Robin, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy and Bane. It's bad because it was a rushed effort due to Warner Brothers, hence the whole product itself was half-assessed.
 

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