Batman #700

[Mr. Earle]

his style is no more "confined" than anyone else on the Batbooks.

You have a point there.

It was part of Murderer/Fugitive. Bruce lost it in prison in a prior issue (another great one) and decided to bust out. Once he was out, he decided the avoid the whole mess by simply not maintaining his civilian identity any longer. It was actually a great issue and a great arc (well, the Brubaker and Rucka parts were great). The short answer to how things got back to normal is simply that Bruce wised up.

Thanks for the info and thank god that Bruce wised up. I cant stand it when he's unbalanced like that.

The issue isn't that he put on a Batman costume. The issue is that he became a complete psychotic for no reason, shooting children and declaring the saving lives is "meaningless."

He did that? God it was such a chore to read BftC that most of the time i was reading without paying much attention. I thought that he was just like Red Hood in Morrison's B&R, but with a batsuit.

Dropping Batwoman is a huge mistake; Rucka's run on Detective has been the best part about the post-RIP batbooks.

So its happening then? Its a pity because everyone seems to love it. I will try to get it soon.

I personally consider B&R the best thing post RIP (one of the best bat-runs ever in my opinion), but then i havent been reading Detective so...

 

[itsthebatman]

Pardon me, I thought we had met: my name is Saint, and when you quote me, I respond. You know, with my thoughts. In general, I understand that to be the function of places such as this.

I love this post so much.
Daniel as the regular writer: bugger. BTFC was such a missed opportunity. That issue in Prodigal with Bruce and Dick talking in the Batcave after Bruce's return had so much more in it about Dick and his relationship with Batman, than all three issues of the risible BTFC.

 

[Drz]

The issue isn't that he put on a Batman costume. The issue is that he became a complete psychotic for no reason, shooting children and declaring the saving lives is "meaningless."

That was due to Bruce's last message towards him. Which was build up from the last Robin arc(s). He grew in denial on Bruce's words and just became paranoid as seen in #2 where in his inner monologue he talks about how Bruce just trained him to make sure Jason wouldn't become a villain... Yeah he lost his sense of reality pretty much. I mean in Batman and Robin he outright says he's crazy, but hey ATLEAST we're getting a Red Hood prequel story from Judd Winnick now, along with the DTV movie. 'Tis a nice year for Jason fans.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Jason fans? There is such a thing as "Jason fans"?



t:

 

[GlasgowBat]

it's more that we are fans of.......what jason should be, if that makes any semblance of sense

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

it's more that we are fans of.......what jason should be, if that makes any semblance of sense

Yeah it does, DC is terrible when writing antiheroes and it seems Winick is the only one that can write Jason well. Everyone else (and I'll include Morrison here, I thought his Red Hood arc was pretty shoddy, atleast the Jason part of it) seems to think that the character should suddenly become pure evil and irredeemable (I'm sure that was actually Daniel's idiotic words) and have EVEN MORE random **** retconned into his past.

 

[The Joker]

Jason fans? There is such a thing as "Jason fans"?



t:

*Raises hand*

I'm a Jason fan.

 

[Mr. Earle]

it's more that we are fans of.......what jason should be, if that makes any semblance of sense

It does. But what is it that you want him to be?

*Raises hand*

I'm a Jason fan.

To be honest i havent read all that much about him, but i never liked him so far. And judging from discussions with other people, i think that many share my sentiments.

I came to like Jason lately with BftC and mostly Morrison's Red Hood arc. I basically loved his relationship with Dick and Tim. He treats Dick like an older brother that he could never match as far as Bruce was concerned and that plus the whole death thing made him an outcast and an anti-hero. In other words i like how he's the black sheep of the batfamily. He doesnt want to actually kill them, he is just breaking things around the house (or should i say Gotham) because he feels neglected. I hope we get more of him.

I should try and read more about him. Any good stories that you guys want to suggest?

 

[Saint]

I love this post so much.
Daniel as the regular writer: bugger. BTFC was such a missed opportunity. That issue in Prodigal with Bruce and Dick talking in the Batcave after Bruce's return had so much more in it about Dick and his relationship with Batman, than all three issues of the risible BTFC.

I agree.

That was due to Bruce's last message towards him.

Right: the mystery message with the terrible secret Tony Daniel made up to magically turn Jason into a psychotic who shoots children and betrays his own values. How is that significantly different (or any better) from what I wrote?

(and I'll include Morrison here, I thought his Red Hood arc was pretty shoddy, atleast the Jason part of it)

Yeah. His Jason arc didn't offend me the way BFTC did, but I was disappointed that he wrote Jason like... well, like a *****ebag.

*Raises hand*

I'm a Jason fan.

Indeed.

 

[Drz]

While we all agree the mystery in childhood was weak, i wouldn't say it was the main reason here. It was Bruce's words about him being a failure, and that Jason should give up and just get therapy. Crime fightning is the ONLY thing Jason knows, and instead of accepting Bruce's words and going to therapy, he goes in denial... and thus grows paranoia and so on.

 

[Saint]

While we all agree the mystery in childhood was weak, i wouldn't say it was the main reason here. It was Bruce's words about him being a failure, and that Jason should give up and just get therapy. Crime fightning is the ONLY thing Jason knows, and instead of accepting Bruce's words and going to therapy, he goes in denial... and thus grows paranoia and so on.

Right: so in response, he decides to prove himself by becoming Batman--but also renounces the one thing Batman stands for (saving lives), shoots kids, and tries to murder Tim and Dick. No, I'm sorry, but the truth is that regardless of what Daniel may have intended, what's in the book reads as completely insincere crap. He shoehorned Jason Todd into an absurd role, and simply wasn't competent enough to properly support it or even make it work--nevermind that it's a role Jason shouldn't have been in at all.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I agree.
Yeah. His Jason arc didn't offend me the way BFTC did, but I was disappointed that he wrote Jason like... well, like a *****ebag.

Probably a character Morrison should never have written (like Talia), he's great at classic evil and good but has huge problems with anti heroes or well intentioned extremists, which is why Ra's was a fullblown villain, Magneto was a fullblown Nazi, Talia a rapist (which I'm still struggling as to where that characterisation came from) and Jason was an enormous psychopath with no redeeming characteristics.

Right: so in response, he decides to prove himself by becoming Batman--but also renounces the one thing Batman stands for (saving lives), shoots kids, and tries to murder Tim and Dick. No, I'm sorry, but the truth is that regardless of what Daniel may have intended, what's in the book reads as completely insincere crap. He shoehorned Jason Todd into an absurd role, and simply wasn't competent enough to properly support it or even make it work--nevermind that it's a role Jason shouldn't have been in at all.

Exactly, it made no sense, as did pretty much all of Daniel's characerisations;
Anyone female he writes will either be background filler, cheesecake or get struck down so the male protagonists can argue.
Two-Face kills his own henchmen with a disturbing regularity for no apparent reason.
Penguin is suddenly a crime boss again despite the fact he'd been established as going legit.
Jason has already been explained.
Tim grabs the idiot ball and runs with it, thinking that putting on a Batman costume for a single night will totally fix things.

And is he the one behind the whole Black Mask reveal-everyone-saw-coming debacle?

 

[Mr. Earle]

I think that Morrison admitted that the Talia screw up was because he didnt read the issue that she and Bruce made love and wrote what he remembered. As for Ras, when was he ever not a villain?
And the Penguin is a batman villain. Like all villains, he'd be legit only for so long.

 

[Drz]

Right: so in response, he decides to prove himself by becoming Batman--but also renounces the one thing Batman stands for (saving lives), shoots kids, and tries to murder Tim and Dick. No, I'm sorry, but the truth is that regardless of what Daniel may have intended, what's in the book reads as completely insincere crap. He shoehorned Jason Todd into an absurd role, and simply wasn't competent enough to properly support it or even make it work--nevermind that it's a role Jason shouldn't have been in at all.

I don't see the big deal. We live in a earth where a boy kills his parents because of Halo 3. I don't see why hearing Bruce's words about getting therapy can spin his view point so much. It gets expanded in Batman and Robin aswell. Where Jason's hideout is now nothing more than a van and he's desperatly trying to market himself and archieve attention he so much longs for. Bruce's death and the denial of his last words really screwed him up. He's Frank Castle of Gotham lol.

@Two-Face: Gotham had been withouth a Batman for months. Yeah it's never explained exactly why this happened, but if you were a capable crime lord, wouldn't you give it a shot? I mean yeah it's kinda bum that stuff Paul Dini tried with the characters seem to be going back where they we're, but oh well thats how status quos are. Yeah i was wondering about the whole Two-Face killing. It's few writers who seem to make Two-Face kill people even WITHOUTH flipping the coin whatsoever. I mean Two-Face freaking killed a person for being too dumb. >_>

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I think that Morrison admitted that the Talia screw up was because he didnt read the issue that she and Bruce made love and wrote what he remembered. As for Ras, when was he ever not a villain?

Yeah, but that's even worse. He's trying to put classic stories into continuity and write beyond them and he doesn't read them!? Besides, Talia had never been characterised like that outside of being brainwashed, so I maintain it was one f the few instances where Morrison's writing was truly, truly terrible.

And the Penguin is a batman villain. Like all villains, he'd be legit only for so long.

@Two-Face: Gotham had been withouth a Batman for months. Yeah it's never explained exactly why this happened, but if you were a capable crime lord, wouldn't you give it a shot? I mean yeah it's kinda bum that stuff Paul Dini tried with the characters seem to be going back where they we're, but oh well thats how status quos are. Yeah i was wondering about the whole Two-Face killing. It's few writers who seem to make Two-Face kill people even WITHOUTH flipping the coin whatsoever. I mean Two-Face freaking killed a person for being too dumb. >_>

Sorry guys, should've made my point more clear. It's not the fact that he turned back that irks me (though mind oyu the other legit side was more interesting) but the fact that there was NO explanation whatsoever given for it.

But yeah, Two-Face is another example of DC screwing over great anti-heroic, well intentioned villain characters, the mob boss version never made any sense and him killing off his allies nonchalantly is an actual against-character thing for someone with his previous position and morals. Especially without use of the coin.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Agreed. Morrison made a stupid mistake.

How do you find the way Talia raised and treats Damian? Its in B&R #10 btw. I found her too cold and *****y. I think she was out of character.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

Agreed. Morrison made a stupid mistake.

How do you find the way Talia raised and treats Damian? Its in B&R #10 btw. I found her too cold and *****y. I think she was out of character.

Yeah, didn't like it either. I find Morrison is normally pretty great as long as he stays away from anything female. May sound like an exaggeration but I can't think of a single female character he's done justice. Wonder Woman was very background in his JLA and he has stated several times he doesn't like the character because he finds her very "unfeminine" (paraphrasing), Talia became a rapist, Catwoman no mention, Bondage female furies in Final Crisis, Jezebel is evil, the psychiatrist in Arkham Asylum was quite *****y, and ultimately a near victim and Batwoman played victim in &R, and I'm sure I'm missing more examples.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Bondage female furies in Final Crisis

Agreed about the rest, but what's wrong with that? Arent the Furies like that?

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

Agreed about the rest, but what's wrong with that? Arent the Furies like that?

I was referring more to the ballgag mouthpieces etc used on the "converted" furies such as Mary Marvel, Batwoman and Wonder Woman.

 

[Saint]

I don't see the big deal.

I know you don't.

We live in a earth where a boy kills his parents because of Halo 3.

Your argument is that some people are unbalanced? Jason was never like that. He came back from the dead angry and vengeful, certainly, but there was always a motivation behind him that made sense, because while he was absolutely violent, he was never insane. That is, until Tony Daniel made him that way for no reason.

 

[Drz]

Your argument is that some people are unbalanced? Jason was never like that. He came back from the dead angry and vengeful, certainly, but there was always a motivation behind him that made sense, because while he was absolutely violent, he was never insane. That is, until Tony Daniel made him that way for no reason.

I would still go with the whole Bruce's last message and him being in denial... But i'd rather wait and see and enjoy Judd Winnick's upcoming story which hopefully might answer how just crazy Jason might be, if not at all.

PS. I do find people who wish to murder quite unbalanced, but hey same goes for a man who dresses up as a Bat. Excluding Dick tho. He's like the most balanced hero out there.... except that time he killed the Joker due to rage. >____<

 

[Mr. Earle]

excluding dick tho. He's like the most balanced hero out there.... Except that time he killed the joker due to rage. >____<

what?

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

what?

In that awful Last Laugh story. But still, I've always hated how DC treats killing so childishly. I'm not saying that killing is necessarily right, but for Dc its a sin to kill in self defense, downright evil for Green Arrow to murder Prometheus after he killed 90,000 people and GA's grandaughter, so what do the other heroes do? They chase after him and fight him

Dick in the story killed the Joker, and Batman ACTUALLY REVIVED HIM, because some BS reason that he didn't want Dick to feel guilty for the rest of his life. Sure Batman, it's not like counseling, understanding and time could possibly help, he has to bring back the guy who's going to spend the rest of his life killing thousands of people.

 

[Drz]

http://comicscontinuum.com/stories/1003/22/dcjune.htm

Grant Morrison returns to Batman with this oversized special! And he's brought an all-star roster of artists along with him including Andy Kubert, Tony Daniel and Frank Quitely to celebrate this milestone 700th issue featuring stories spotlighting each of the Batmen from different eras * Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson and Damian Wayne. A blockbuster story that paves the way for the return of Bruce Wayne!

 

[Cain]

That solicit made my day, hopefully the Damian segment is post-#666 and features some of his bat rogues that we only heard about in that issue through name mentions t: